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Cloaking device "rebalancing" idea
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orxe
Perkone
Caldari State
#1 - 2011-11-26 17:53:31 UTC
As far as all of you know, cloaking devices in their current variations require no capacitor for activation, are not cycled and do not consume any resources at all thus making them the ultimate solution for enemy beggars that come to your system in a cheap ship and stay there for days demanding ISK reward(!) for simply leaving the system.

  • They play on our nerves and get away with it easily.
  • They are virtually not catchable, not scannable and can see our shiptypes and local list.
  • They go afk for days and simply relog after downtime to continue being afk or watching people in the systems.


Therefore there are a few possible solutions that I suggest:

  • Make this module cyclable with noticeable capacitor consumption
  • Make this module cyclable with fuel consumption
  • Give it additional penalties that will prevent such things from happening


tl;dr: cloak is an active module, and it gives too many advantages to be permanent and not consume anything on activation
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2011-11-26 18:10:14 UTC
grazer gin
Raving Rednecks
#3 - 2011-11-26 18:12:09 UTC
Why rebalance something that is fine already its not the cloaks fault that carebears in nullsec are insufferable whiners.

Just remove your infallible free intel tall called local from nullsec then you have nothing to worry about as you catch cry about what you cant see (even though you will)

My other suggestion is if it bothers you soo much get out of null/low sec and live in hsec
orxe
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2011-11-26 18:15:09 UTC
What bothers me is a module that works permanently whenever you like and doesn't even consume a single 1 J of capacitor to activate.
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2011-11-26 18:18:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
orxe wrote:
What bothers me is a module that works permanently whenever you like and doesn't even consume a single 1 J of capacitor to activate.


Perhaps similar to the myriad of other modules that use the ships power without using capacitor? (But work off the powergrid).

Or the redundant need to even refuel your ship perhaps to even warp or move?

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

It's just criminal - Smuggling
Vio Geraci
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2011-11-26 18:36:28 UTC
orxe wrote:
What bothers me is a module that works permanently whenever you like and doesn't even consume a single 1 J of capacitor to activate.


Think of it as a pause button.
grazer gin
Raving Rednecks
#7 - 2011-11-26 18:48:03 UTC
orxe wrote:
What bothers me is a module that works permanently whenever you like and doesn't even consume a single 1 J of capacitor to activate.



In that case we better make the damage control use sooo much power it can only fit on capitals
Shaidar Hussan
HelloKittyFanclub
#8 - 2011-11-26 19:22:06 UTC
orxe wrote:
What bothers me is a module that works permanently whenever you like and doesn't even consume a single 1 J of capacitor to activate.

Ok, so from now on cloak uses capacitor. All viable covert ops set ups become cap stable. Gz.
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
#9 - 2011-11-26 19:25:12 UTC
Another cloaking device balance breaking idea.

GTFO, give me your stuff, biomass.

Cloaking is working as intended.

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||
Jimmy Dickens
Abstergo Galactic
#10 - 2011-12-10 21:47:17 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Renan Ruivo wrote:

... however one idea in particular i somewhat liked is that of a T2 probe that, when 100% result is achieved, drops you within 10 to 30km of the cloaked ship. What i like about it is that its ridiculously easy for the cloaked pilot to prevent being detected by just A) warping to a different safespot still cloaked or B) move around a little bit. However, unless the pilot ACTS, he is going to be found. (Even if he is moving/orbiting something). It goes perfectly well with that most of us have been taught that the only 100% safe place in EVE is inside a station, and it can hardly be considered a nerf. It will only add to the game, and make cloak-camping a system that much more fun and rewarding.


Here's where the idea completely fails.

Wormholes.

In wormholes, being undetectable while cloaked is a vital part of the whole. It's necessary, for example, to have your cloaked ship parked for days or even weeks in an enemy system while gathering intel in preparations for an op. If you allow any type of probes (or other means) to be able to detect cloaked ships, you're completely changing the entire wormhole paradigm to the point that it will be almost a requirement to have someone parked somewhere with these probes out constantly scanning the system for the slightest whiff of a cloaked vessel. You would, effectively, nerf the living hell out of the inherent dangers of wormhole living...


Ingvar Angst wrote:

Come up with a solution that doesn't break other aspects of the game (such as wormholes), balances things and creates a bit more of a dynamic approach to things while preserving the fact that null space is intended to be a dangerous place to live.

Cloak detection or auto-decloaking break the wormhole aspect, so you'll need to start somewhere else.


Hi. My Name's Jimmy. I'm a cloaky...

I don't know if there is a major problem with AFK cloaking, but it does seem just a teensy bit unfair that there is no risk to provide a constant implied threat with essentially zero effort (AFK being the least effort possible) - it's the combination of these factors that tips the balance SLIGHTLY in the direction of the cloaky. I don't like the idea of being decloaked any more than the next cloaky - quite frankly, the ships are fragile as hell - especially bombers. I think the general idea is that it should be POSSIBLE... SOMEHOW... to counter and prevent this psychological tactic, not just ignore and prepare - the question is exactly how to make it fair for everyone - possible, but not easy.

I've read many suggestions as I browsed through the forums, and many seem to break something that otherwise works pretty well. I see how some claim it's meta gaming (when you're AFK, you're not playing - by definition, I would say that's "meta"), but I'm also generally a fan of not breaking or nerfing an existing game function (as in lower stats or remove capabilities) -- instead, I am a proponent of providing one option for a counter to a tactic. So, concerning the T2 Probes idea quoted above, that sounds pretty decent at first, except that it breaks a big part of wormholes... How about this for a solution?

T2 probes called something like "Covert Combat Probes" - essentially combat probes but a little weaker, which plays into the next part. These probes - by themselves - are inferior to standard combat probes, which are of course inferior to Sister's Combat Probes. Most of the time, they are simply weaker versions of the standard equivalents (similar to T2 strip miners), but are usable in a pinch. However, there's another part to the equation: some sort of high-CPU-and-Power POS module or SOV upgrade (or a combination of the two) that has an affect system wide to generate subtle signals in a cloaking field that can be faintly detected by these special probes.

A simple POS module would require onlining time and be expensive enough to run so that it would be completely impractical - if even theoretically possible - to run constantly, but COULD be used in a WH. To completely eliminate WH use, make it a strategic sovereignty upgrade (level 3 or so) or make it require one - like "Cloaking Disruption" or "Cloaking Perturbation".

Depending upon what the devs think about this possibility, it could make T1 cloaks easier to detect or even have a significant effect on them (like make them not work?) while allowing the greatly superior covert ops cloaks to still function, but become barely detectable with the specialized equipment. - this would, of course, make BOBS detectable and visible, so its up to the implementers...

This idea would require significant resources and preparation on the part of the system "holder" (SOV Upgrade and/or POS module, PLUS an available T2 prober, PLUS extra fuel usage PLUS onlining time) but still make it POSSIBLE to defend themselves against this tactic. The significant cost of running the system would mean there would have to be someone in local (and probably for a long time) before you even thought of turning the thing on.

Once this module/structure is online, the Covert Combat Probes would be able to detect cloaked ships - but not very accurately. Every warpable signature would only get you on the grid (or maybe somewhere within 20-30(-50??) km) - YOU would have to send a bunch of ships to flush out an AFK cloaker - avoiding such a fleet would be beyond simple for a cloaky sitting at his desk: right click -> warp to 100K (or similar)... or even double click in space. A somewhat reasonable defense for AFK cloakies might even be to simply keep moving (though you could end up moving TOWARDS the fleet...)

Commentary welcome :D

I know most of these are pretty basic, but I hate it when people use acronyms/abbreviations I don't know...
AFK: Away From Keyboard -- WH: Worm Hole -- POS: Player Owned Starbase -- SOV: Sovereignty -- BOBS: Black Ops Battle Ships -- T1/T2: Tech I/II
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#11 - 2011-12-11 05:44:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Gerrick Palivorn
The Balance issues of cloaking and sov are intertwined very closely, almost like a spiderweb.

If you try to adjust cloaking mechanics you inadvertantly effect many other professions. There are many legitmate uses for cloaking in the game, one of them being afk cloaking in the form of income denial. A complete reworking of Nullsec mechanics, Soveriegnty Mechanics, Wormhole Mechanics, and yes even lowsec.

To specifically target one of the biggest issues people have with cloaking, I'm sorry, the ONLY problem people have with cloaking...AFK Cloaking in Sov systems. The 'problem' is no less apparent in other areas in the Eve cluster, it's just that the locals have ways of dealing with the threat.

-NPC Null since locals do not get the luxury of anoms to continually print isk they must resort to belt ratting, and exploration sites for income. I've seen many creative solutions to issues with nuets camping there systems. I won't give them away as I feel that they are rather effective and don't really want to deal with them in Sov space. In anycase, these are effective and the camper doesn't stay for long.

-WH Space there is always an inherent and constant danger so during opertations the locals set up gate camps and early warning systems by using scouts to be informed if there are enemies entering the system. This is not the end, many WH corps PVE in groups and in PVP ships to farther stave off solo attackes from recons and bombers. These methods are effective and prevent many attacks.

-Believe it or not lowsec has issues too, it's just that the attacks are potentially less lethal due to the lack of bombs and bubbles. The locals don't care, they accept that when they undock they will most likely come back in a pod. This works for them and they understand the risks.

-Sov Space has the most restrictions when it comes to attacks from a cloaked platform. Everyone around you is your enemy (some might call this a blessing, but it can be a good or bad thing). Many alliances have an effective Intel network thanks to the universal Intelligence system known as local, so they will always know what system your in. You cannot dock, there is little opertunity to set up a pos for logistics, and many cans you put down to resupply would just be located and destoyed (even in a safe its not that hard). As a reaction to an attackers presense the locals dock up and refuse to do anything until the threat leaves. This method works for them.

4 different types of PVP centralized systems, and the only people that seem to be complaining is the ones in the Sov Null areas. You provide your own security as soon as you leave empire. There are many techniques and methods to deal with attackers that work rather well. To this day there are some areas of NPC that I will not afk cloak because I die horribly with in a day of setting up.

Local should be a Sov level mechanic and not 100% accurate, Sov holders should have an active interest in there space and set up patrols, response teams, and scouts to provide intel, instead of just glancing at local. In npc space, local should be nonexistant unless you are friendly with the local pirates, likewise with lowsec and empire standings.

tl;dr

How different areas deal with cloakers

NPC Null: Traps and ambushes; rather effective
WH's: Intel and security; rather effective
Lowsec: Traveling in groups, being highly mobile; rather effective
Sov Null: Safe up until the bad people leave; rather effective

Modify local in all but hisec. Have active intel be the norm and not the acception.

PS I love copy and paste

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-
Shaidar Hussan
HelloKittyFanclub
#12 - 2011-12-11 19:19:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Shaidar Hussan
Gerrick Palivorn wrote:

-Believe it or not lowsec has issues too, it's just that the attacks are potentially less lethal due to the lack of bombs and bubbles. The locals don't care, they accept that when they undock they will most likely come back in a pod. This works for them and they understand the risks.

Heh, the difference is in lowsec no one cares about AFK cloakers, because no one does the kind of stuff you get going on in SOV nullsec. Although I did see a hulk mine in Akora once, it lasted 4 minutes.

However in lowsec it is quite annoying when you see a Dominix get passed you because it has a T1 cloak and a MWD, that trick is just plain lame. Cloaks should make covert ops ships nigh on invulnverable, not everything sub-cap. It is especially annoying when you are intentionally trying to damage or hurt an alliance by controlling a pipe, yet they can easily get any ship they want through without any scouts, support or planning.

Gerrick Palivorn wrote:

In npc space, local should be nonexistant unless you are friendly with the local pirates, likewise with lowsec and empire standings.

Please no :( I don't want to have to grind some rubbish missions to be able to use local, leave PvE for those that wish to go that route. Don't force it on PvP toons.

Also, surely being friendly with the local pirates, and remaining friendly with them, means you wouldn't be able to plex in your own space? That would really, really suck.

I think there was a suggestion a while back for local to be an installable upgrade in SOV space, so they could also disable it if they wished. Or perhaps allow further control, as well as a time delay before people show up. It would be kind of cool giving people a minute or two to try and find a target before they show up, although I suspect it would just result in alts being posted on the gates.

tl;dr
Covert Ops is working as intended, but the MWD cloak trick is pretty lame.
Time delay on null sec local would be cool, making me grind missions for it would not be.
Kuhn Arashi
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2011-12-11 19:24:58 UTC
Do you whiners think that more words makes your point any better?

So there's a guy in your system who you can't scan? Well thats annoying, I get that, i've been there.
But, you know what that AFK guy isnt gonna do?

ANYTHING. because he is AFK. And if he's not AFK? well then I guess he's an active player stalking some prey.
which is why a cloak exists in the first place.

But then you say, "but we dunno when he's gonna be AFK or when he's active, and thats scary"
Well damn, if you are worried about 1 guy, and what little mayhem he can bring, why the hell are in 0.0 anyway?
CCP markets the game based off the brutal, uncaring nature of 0.0 and you expect them to make things less scary, painful, risky?

CCP doesn't want you to feel safe, they want you paranoid, on nerves end, ready to make any excuse to wage full scale war.

They havent changed it yet, they aren't gonna change it now.
If you don't like it, Move to a ******* wormhole where you wont know they are even there.