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[Rubicon 1.3] Drone Assist change

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Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#1061 - 2014-02-09 09:26:41 UTC
In fact, considering what goes on in any non CFC drone fleet, which consists of Domis, I challenge CCP to prove that the game play is anymore or less passive game play than any other ship in any other large scale fleet fight.

Considering the only people who make the game play passive are CFC fleet doctrines I would wonder why the rest of the game has to be changed.

Or didn't any of our CSM members bring up that in most other fleets theres a slightly complex management of the ships other modules?

i mean that would be because they don't understand or know what they're talking about would it?

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Dave Stark
#1062 - 2014-02-09 09:26:42 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

Because nothing else has changed that might have made drone assist a problem in the last 10 years c/d?


no, i don't think goons whining constantly is a sufficient change that requires the change in drone assist.
also considering how long drone assist has been used in incursions without an issue; it's quite clear drone assist in itself really isn't the issue and the things that have changed are more likely to be the issue.


Dave that's dishonest of you, and I am disappointed because I know for a fact that you know better than to try that bullshit on me of all people.

Drone boat bonuses significantly buffed, Drone Damage amps added, server performance increases, fleet meta changes, the gigantic increase in capital ship ownership.

All of those are significant changes in the meta that directly relate to sentry doctrines. I know perfectly well that you're capable of looking past your own immediate self interest to appreciate the wider picture.



actually malcanis, i didn't bullshit you at all. you've just said exactly what i've said.

there have been many changes to drones to cause their proliferation and the assist mechanic isn't one of them. the wider picture is very obvious to everyone. which makes it strange why the goons are whining so much and with so little actual reasoned argument.
Dave Stark
#1063 - 2014-02-09 09:27:36 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

it's all a very clever ruse to lower the isk/hour of incursions!


Hi Dinsdale


hi malc. i did tell you to prepare the tinfoil!
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#1064 - 2014-02-09 09:30:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
Malcanis wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

this change doesn't really fix a single thing.


No you dont get it this is to fix a bottleneck created by the CFC on purpose to combat a mechanic that has been in the game for 10 years, it obviously fixes something, nobody can tell you what that is but it obviously fixes something.



And Grath, you're almost as bad. I know you're no more capable of looking past your own immediate interest than you are of cutting your own **** off, but I also know that you're so well aware that conditions have changed in the last 10 years that your nose must have grown 8 inches to compensate when you told that gigantic lie.


Hey I'm totally sure your opinion isn't biased at all right? I mean you're totally not just carrying the company line since I've proven on other forums that you legit know absolutely nothing about Drone Assisted fleets and what makes the drones work right?

Or was that somebody else posting under your name who had zero working knowledge of a slowcat carrier fleet?


EDIT: I mean heaven forbid people find out that you're just doing the standard politician bullshit where you just do what you're told by somebody behind you.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1065 - 2014-02-09 09:32:55 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
In fact, considering what goes on in any non CFC drone fleet, which consists of Domis, I challenge CCP to prove that the game play is anymore or less passive game play than any other ship in any other large scale fleet fight.

Considering the only people who make the game play passive are CFC fleet doctrines I would wonder why the rest of the game has to be changed.

Or didn't any of our CSM members bring up that in most other fleets theres a slightly complex management of the ships other modules?

i mean that would be because they don't understand or know what they're talking about would it?

just let it go and get some celestises already

oh wait you can't, blackops farmed EMP so hard and converted so many of the renters even at half price rent that they couldn't even afford to pay their sov bills and had to dissolve cobalt edge into B0TLRD just to keep CONCORD from welping the sov so you no longer have a feeder alliance to whip into subcaps
Mario Putzo
#1066 - 2014-02-09 09:33:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Grath Telkin wrote:

Or didn't any of our CSM members bring up that in most other fleets theres a slightly complex management of the ships other modules?

i mean that would be because they don't understand or know what they're talking about would it?


Only Mynna getting embarassed and forced to sick GBS or w/e on highsec pubbies.
Mario Putzo
#1067 - 2014-02-09 09:35:58 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
In fact, considering what goes on in any non CFC drone fleet, which consists of Domis, I challenge CCP to prove that the game play is anymore or less passive game play than any other ship in any other large scale fleet fight.

Considering the only people who make the game play passive are CFC fleet doctrines I would wonder why the rest of the game has to be changed.

Or didn't any of our CSM members bring up that in most other fleets theres a slightly complex management of the ships other modules?

i mean that would be because they don't understand or know what they're talking about would it?

just let it go and get some celestises already

oh wait you can't, blackops farmed EMP so hard and converted so many of the renters even at half price rent that they couldn't even afford to pay their sov bills and had to dissolve cobalt edge into B0TLRD just to keep CONCORD from welping the sov so you no longer have a feeder alliance to whip into subcaps


What does sov conquest have to do with balancing of drone mechanics?
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1068 - 2014-02-09 09:36:21 UTC
a nearly 4000 man alliance disbanding due to a maximum of 40 people from an alliance who is accepted as being essentially the worst PvPers in eve

god

damn
Mario Putzo
#1069 - 2014-02-09 09:37:41 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
a nearly 4000 man alliance disbanding due to a maximum of 40 people from an alliance who is accepted as being essentially the worst PvPers in eve

god

damn


SMA has a Blackops Fleet?
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#1070 - 2014-02-09 09:37:53 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
In fact, considering what goes on in any non CFC drone fleet, which consists of Domis, I challenge CCP to prove that the game play is anymore or less passive game play than any other ship in any other large scale fleet fight.

Considering the only people who make the game play passive are CFC fleet doctrines I would wonder why the rest of the game has to be changed.

Or didn't any of our CSM members bring up that in most other fleets theres a slightly complex management of the ships other modules?

i mean that would be because they don't understand or know what they're talking about would it?

just let it go and get some celestises already

oh wait you can't, blackops farmed EMP so hard and converted so many of the renters even at half price rent that they couldn't even afford to pay their sov bills and had to dissolve cobalt edge into B0TLRD just to keep CONCORD from welping the sov so you no longer have a feeder alliance to whip into subcaps


What does sov conquest have to do with balancing of drone mechanics?


He/She can't fault the point of the post so they attack something about the poster himself, its scrub tier, dont even sweat it.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1071 - 2014-02-09 09:38:01 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
In fact, considering what goes on in any non CFC drone fleet, which consists of Domis, I challenge CCP to prove that the game play is anymore or less passive game play than any other ship in any other large scale fleet fight.

Considering the only people who make the game play passive are CFC fleet doctrines I would wonder why the rest of the game has to be changed.

Or didn't any of our CSM members bring up that in most other fleets theres a slightly complex management of the ships other modules?

i mean that would be because they don't understand or know what they're talking about would it?

just let it go and get some celestises already

oh wait you can't, blackops farmed EMP so hard and converted so many of the renters even at half price rent that they couldn't even afford to pay their sov bills and had to dissolve cobalt edge into B0TLRD just to keep CONCORD from welping the sov so you no longer have a feeder alliance to whip into subcaps


What does sov conquest have to do with balancing of drone mechanics?

the eastern bloc lacks the manpower to field large numbers of ewar ships

fear of ewar ships was one of the things that pushed ewar immune drone assist doctrines towards the forefront

not the only thing, of course, but a portion nonetheless

the destruction of one of their best hopes for fielding "unsavory" t1 cruisers in battle is pretty relevant
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1072 - 2014-02-09 09:41:22 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
a nearly 4000 man alliance disbanding due to a maximum of 40 people from an alliance who is accepted as being essentially the worst PvPers in eve

god

damn


SMA has a Blackops Fleet?

zing
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#1073 - 2014-02-09 09:42:12 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:

fear of ewar ships was one of the things that pushed ewar immune drone assist doctrines towards the forefront

not the only thing, of course, but a portion nonetheless

the destruction of one of their best hopes for fielding "unsavory" t1 cruisers in battle is pretty relevant


Make believe boys and girls, in action, and live.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1074 - 2014-02-09 09:45:28 UTC
I guess I could have also used "getting more sentry carriers into fleet" as another potential upside to having a feeder alliance but EMP was consistently too poor to field them in any great numbers so I went with the cheap option
Mario Putzo
#1075 - 2014-02-09 09:46:55 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
In fact, considering what goes on in any non CFC drone fleet, which consists of Domis, I challenge CCP to prove that the game play is anymore or less passive game play than any other ship in any other large scale fleet fight.

Considering the only people who make the game play passive are CFC fleet doctrines I would wonder why the rest of the game has to be changed.

Or didn't any of our CSM members bring up that in most other fleets theres a slightly complex management of the ships other modules?

i mean that would be because they don't understand or know what they're talking about would it?

just let it go and get some celestises already

oh wait you can't, blackops farmed EMP so hard and converted so many of the renters even at half price rent that they couldn't even afford to pay their sov bills and had to dissolve cobalt edge into B0TLRD just to keep CONCORD from welping the sov so you no longer have a feeder alliance to whip into subcaps


What does sov conquest have to do with balancing of drone mechanics?

the eastern bloc lacks the manpower to field large numbers of ewar ships

fear of ewar ships was one of the things that pushed ewar immune drone assist doctrines towards the forefront

not the only thing, of course, but a portion nonetheless

the destruction of one of their best hopes for fielding "unsavory" t1 cruisers in battle is pretty relevant



Drones aren't immune to ewar though. They can be jammed, they can be damped, they can be target painted, tracking disrupted, they can be ecm bursted, they can be smart bombed, they can be nueted and nosed.

But that is still irrelevant. What does conquest of Sov have to do with changing drone mechanics. Why should a mechanic be changed in order to make sov gain easier? Why should my small gang pvp be impacted, because YOU don't want to target drones to apply ewar. Why should my incurssions have to adjust how we run because you dont want to target drones to apply ewar.

Why should I have to suffer readjusting my game because your "Western Bloc" wants an easier road to sov conquest?
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1076 - 2014-02-09 09:48:35 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
In fact, considering what goes on in any non CFC drone fleet, which consists of Domis, I challenge CCP to prove that the game play is anymore or less passive game play than any other ship in any other large scale fleet fight.

Considering the only people who make the game play passive are CFC fleet doctrines I would wonder why the rest of the game has to be changed.

Or didn't any of our CSM members bring up that in most other fleets theres a slightly complex management of the ships other modules?

i mean that would be because they don't understand or know what they're talking about would it?

just let it go and get some celestises already

oh wait you can't, blackops farmed EMP so hard and converted so many of the renters even at half price rent that they couldn't even afford to pay their sov bills and had to dissolve cobalt edge into B0TLRD just to keep CONCORD from welping the sov so you no longer have a feeder alliance to whip into subcaps


What does sov conquest have to do with balancing of drone mechanics?

the eastern bloc lacks the manpower to field large numbers of ewar ships

fear of ewar ships was one of the things that pushed ewar immune drone assist doctrines towards the forefront

not the only thing, of course, but a portion nonetheless

the destruction of one of their best hopes for fielding "unsavory" t1 cruisers in battle is pretty relevant



Drones aren't immune to ewar though. They can be jammed, they can be damped, they can be target painted, tracking disrupted, they can be ecm bursted, they can be smart bombed, they can be nueted and nosed.

But that is still irrelevant. What does conquest of Sov have to do with changing drone mechanics. Why should a mechanic be changed in order to make sov gain easier? Why should my small gang pvp be impacted, because YOU don't want to target drones to apply ewar. Why should my incurssions have to adjust how we run because you dont want to target drones to apply ewar.

Why should I have to suffer readjusting my game because your "Western Bloc" wants an easier road to sov conquest?

uh

you don't ewar drones

you ewar ships commanding the drones

without drone assist, you can't dogpile 254 (hyperbole) remote sensor boosters onto a single target zebraing inside a pile of identical looking ships to counteract sensor dampening
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1077 - 2014-02-09 09:58:38 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:


BTW if you think that drone assist wasn't one of the biggest reasons said fleets were popular then looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool


Yea, im sure its got nothing to do with A) CFC ordering its pilots to use drone assign so much that CCP has no choice but to fix it and B) the fact that Domis, unlike other BS, **** anything smaller than a BS (like logi and armor hacs).

I'm glad to see that you don't consider CCP to have any of the rudimentary thinking required to distinguish someone artificially inflating the metrics on usage to get something nerfed with things that are actually broken.
Sure if we were the only ones using drone assist en masse you'd have a point, but we aren't.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Dave Stark
#1078 - 2014-02-09 10:03:37 UTC
it doesn't really matter whether the number of drone ships has or hasn't been artificially inflated. the reason for their popularity still isn't due to the ability to assist drones, otherwise drones would have been the go to choice of weapon system for the last decade.

as malcanis pointed out; there have been a myriad of more recent changes to drones to make them more desirable and the assist feature wasn't one of them.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#1079 - 2014-02-09 10:05:57 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:


BTW if you think that drone assist wasn't one of the biggest reasons said fleets were popular then looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool


Yea, im sure its got nothing to do with A) CFC ordering its pilots to use drone assign so much that CCP has no choice but to fix it and B) the fact that Domis, unlike other BS, **** anything smaller than a BS (like logi and armor hacs).

I'm glad to see that you don't consider CCP to have any of the rudimentary thinking required to distinguish someone artificially inflating the metrics on usage to get something nerfed with things that are actually broken.
Sure if we were the only ones using drone assist en masse you'd have a point, but we aren't.



You're the ones currently using fully passive set ups, and yes, from every number quoted for their time they've been watching, that would be you artificially inflating numbers since you've been fielding 300-1000 man Domi fleets since October. Thats going to artificially inflate numberrs, because the last time Domi fleets were in heavy use was around the AT when NCdot was fighting goons.

Your numbers inlfate things, Im betting that if they checked the stats for then your Mega would be one of the ships at the top of if not the top for damage inflicted. Its always been that way, it used to be the Maelstrom you kept up there.

Sighting a short term pattern for those Domi stats like he's doing when you have such a large entity using it as its mainline fleet doctrine on purpose is dumb.

I would call it something else but its just dumb

*35k dudes get told to use something constantly*

*CCP Employee acts shocked when its at the top of the usage charts*

I'm willing to bet if they checked, Damps are currently obliterating all other forms of projected Ewar as well. Could it be because all of EVE is damping things or because of the 200 man Celestis fleets that accompany CFC fleets, and should we base overall game usage on that stat or view it for what it is: One faction inflating numbers due strictly to its size.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Mario Putzo
#1080 - 2014-02-09 10:08:07 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:

uh

you don't ewar drones

you ewar ships commanding the drones

without drone assist, you can't dogpile 254 (hyperbole) remote sensor boosters onto a single target zebraing inside a pile of identical looking ships to counteract sensor dampening



Well actually you can still do that. But you still haven't answered my question. Why should a decade old game mechanic be changed because the Current 2014 Western Sov Bloc would like to have an easier time conquering the Eastern Bloc.

Lets ignore of course the clearly demonstrated counters to the dreaded "Drone Assist" Fleets. N3PL showed everyone in EVE how to defend against Domis, and CFC showed everyone in EVE how to attack against wreckingballs.

So why does the game need to be changed?