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[Rubicon 1.3] Drone Assist change

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Mario Putzo
#1041 - 2014-02-09 08:53:21 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
i guess if you are so developmentally challenged to believe that making drones easier to command than any other weapon system in eve somehow does not engender mass use of said weapons system then there's little else to say besides "gas thread ban op" because goddamn you are operating in some sort of reality alteration field


sorry which change made drones easier to command than any other weapon system?

d r o n e a s s i s t

it is the topic of this thread (ostensibly)


Ya I remember that day over 10 years ago when it was added. Good day.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1042 - 2014-02-09 08:53:33 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
drone assist hasn't been changed. so which change is it you were referring to?


Oh look he's going to play the "ITS NOT TECHNICALLY DRONE ASSIST IT'S THE CAP ON HOW MUCH ONE PERSON CAN GET THAT'S CHANGED DUMBY" game.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1043 - 2014-02-09 08:54:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Promiscuous Female
Mario Putzo wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

lmbo okay let me know when baltecfleets roll out clouds of light drones


It doesn't matter what size you use. Drones put twice the load on the server than players do. If you have Baltec Fleet and their 3 sentries...That is 4000 Objects. 3000 of which are acting like 1.5 Stationary Megas.

I don't think you fully grasp the concept of the load AI scripts in large volume put on servers.

The problem is 100% drones. Period. Just like it was like 7 years ago.

It doesn't matter if your fleet is called BaltecFleet, Wreckingball, Welp Fleet, or Dunk Fleet.




alright I am gonna explain this to you slowly

when in combat against other spaceships

a megathron does not deploy any drones, at all

this may be difficult for you to understand but just bear with me here

no drones at all

none

the only reason it carries any drones is to add the barest hint of assistance to structure grinding when forced to do so because structure grinding is literally shitler

now

when a ship does not deploy drones as a matter of routine in its SPACESHIP OPERATIONS

it can't affect the same amount of lag as doctrines which rely 100% on drones to do their damage and can also scale much faster to large number of pilots due to minimum intelligence and participation requirements

attempting to go "A SHIP CAN FIELD DRONES THEREFORE IT IS JUST AS TAXING AS DRONE-CENTRIC SHIPS" is missing the special needs forest for the retard trees
Dave Stark
#1044 - 2014-02-09 08:57:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Snow Axe wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
drone assist hasn't been changed. so which change is it you were referring to?


Oh look he's going to play the "ITS NOT TECHNICALLY DRONE ASSIST IT'S THE CAP ON HOW MUCH ONE PERSON CAN GET THAT'S CHANGED DUMBY" game.


i'm not playing any game. some one said drones were changed to make them easier to use, they haven't been.

if people want to lie, that's fine. however they should expect to be called out on it.

edit: alternatively if they meant to imply that they've always been easier to use (which is true) we're going to have to say that's obviously not the reason for drone proliferation as the mechanic is 10 years old and drone proliferation is a new thing.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1045 - 2014-02-09 08:58:40 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
drone assist hasn't been changed. so which change is it you were referring to?


Oh look he's going to play the "ITS NOT TECHNICALLY DRONE ASSIST IT'S THE CAP ON HOW MUCH ONE PERSON CAN GET THAT'S CHANGED DUMBY" game.


i'm not playing any game. some one said drones were changed to make them easier to use, they haven't been.

if people want to lie, that's fine. however they should expect to be called out on it.

you've got pretty poor reading comprehension, let it go

my post did in no way imply any sort of change
Dave Stark
#1046 - 2014-02-09 09:00:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
drone assist hasn't been changed. so which change is it you were referring to?


Oh look he's going to play the "ITS NOT TECHNICALLY DRONE ASSIST IT'S THE CAP ON HOW MUCH ONE PERSON CAN GET THAT'S CHANGED DUMBY" game.


i'm not playing any game. some one said drones were changed to make them easier to use, they haven't been.

if people want to lie, that's fine. however they should expect to be called out on it.

you've got pretty poor reading comprehension, let it go

my post did in no way imply any sort of change


blaming drone assist for drone proliferation is still laughable, though.

and yes, your post did imply that. if there wasn't a recent change, then there wouldn't have been a recent surge in drone use. recent changes have not been to the drone assist mechanic.
Mario Putzo
#1047 - 2014-02-09 09:02:09 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

lmbo okay let me know when baltecfleets roll out clouds of light drones


It doesn't matter what size you use. Drones put twice the load on the server than players do. If you have Baltec Fleet and their 3 sentries...That is 4000 Objects. 3000 of which are acting like 1.5 Stationary Megas.

I don't think you fully grasp the concept of the load AI scripts in large volume put on servers.

The problem is 100% drones. Period. Just like it was like 7 years ago.

It doesn't matter if your fleet is called BaltecFleet, Wreckingball, Welp Fleet, or Dunk Fleet.




alright I am gonna explain this to you slowly

when in combat against other spaceships

a megathron does not deploy any drones, at all

this may be difficult for you to understand but just bear with me here

no drones at all

none

the only reason it carries any drones is to add the barest hint of assistance to structure grinding when forced to do so because structure grinding is literally shitler

now

when a ship does not deploy drones as a matter of routine in its SPACESHIP OPERATIONS

it can't affect the same amount of lag as doctrines which rely 100% on drones to do their damage and can also scale much faster to large number of pilots due to minimum intelligence and participation requirements

attempting to go "A SHIP CAN FIELD DRONES THEREFORE IT IS JUST AS TAXING AS DRONE-CENTRIC SHIPS" is missing the special needs forest for the retar[i]/[i]d trees


It doesn't ******* matter.

CFC just spent 4 months using nothing but Domis and drones and complaining. It is not about the mega. Its not about the domi. its about the drones. The Domis didn't cause lag in HED, not more than the Carriers did. It was the drones the brought. It doesn't matter who they were assigned to, just that they were there. It is a problem with drones. 6VDT didn't have an issue, there was only what 200 Prophecies there, and Megas. Not 1500 Domis and 500 Carriers.

It is drones. You could have individually assigned those drones, and probably killed nothing. Bur it still wouldn't have changed the fact when the 700 Dreads came in they went into line behind 36000 peak objects.

This is why Rises fix is irrelevant. Its not going to fix the problem because people are still going to use 5+ Droens each because there is no reason not to. Get on grid. Drop 5000 Drones. GG.

Fix the ******* drones.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1048 - 2014-02-09 09:02:32 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
blaming drone assist for drone proliferation is still laughable, though..


CCP doesn't agree with you. Maybe try convincing them? Or don't w/e this thread is **** anyway.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1049 - 2014-02-09 09:07:34 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

lmbo okay let me know when baltecfleets roll out clouds of light drones


It doesn't matter what size you use. Drones put twice the load on the server than players do. If you have Baltec Fleet and their 3 sentries...That is 4000 Objects. 3000 of which are acting like 1.5 Stationary Megas.

I don't think you fully grasp the concept of the load AI scripts in large volume put on servers.

The problem is 100% drones. Period. Just like it was like 7 years ago.

It doesn't matter if your fleet is called BaltecFleet, Wreckingball, Welp Fleet, or Dunk Fleet.




alright I am gonna explain this to you slowly

when in combat against other spaceships

a megathron does not deploy any drones, at all

this may be difficult for you to understand but just bear with me here

no drones at all

none

the only reason it carries any drones is to add the barest hint of assistance to structure grinding when forced to do so because structure grinding is literally shitler

now

when a ship does not deploy drones as a matter of routine in its SPACESHIP OPERATIONS

it can't affect the same amount of lag as doctrines which rely 100% on drones to do their damage and can also scale much faster to large number of pilots due to minimum intelligence and participation requirements

attempting to go "A SHIP CAN FIELD DRONES THEREFORE IT IS JUST AS TAXING AS DRONE-CENTRIC SHIPS" is missing the special needs forest for the retar[i]/[i]d trees


It doesn't ******* matter.

CFC just spent 4 months using nothing but Domis and drones and complaining. It is not about the mega. Its not about the domi. its about the drones. The Domis didn't cause lag in HED, not more than the Carriers did. It was the drones the brought. It doesn't matter who they were assigned to, just that they were there. It is a problem with drones. 6VDT didn't have an issue, there was only what 200 Prophecies there, and Megas. Not 1500 Domis and 500 Carriers.

It is drones. You could have individually assigned those drones, and probably killed nothing. Bur it still wouldn't have changed the fact when the 700 Dreads came in they went into line behind 36000 peak objects.

This is why Rises fix is irrelevant. Its not going to fix the problem because people are still going to use 5+ Droens each because there is no reason not to. Get on grid. Drop 5000 Drones. GG.

Fix the ******* drones.

woah buddy slow down there

unlike you I was actually in 6VDT, bridged in a bomber and covops to probe down d/cs and murder them

lag was so hilariously bad that it took me an hour to kill an exequorer

I get that you are trying like hell to save your gimmick incursion brain-deficient fleet thing but you're gonna need to find some better examples than that

and I just gave you plenty of reasons why modern fleet comps will actually not use drones to large degrees now but feel free to continue wearing your blinders I guess
Dave Stark
#1050 - 2014-02-09 09:08:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Snow Axe wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
blaming drone assist for drone proliferation is still laughable, though..


CCP doesn't agree with you. Maybe try convincing them? Or don't w/e this thread is **** anyway.


i'm honestly not that bothered about them removing drone assist or not; i've made that clear on many occasions. however trying to attribute the mass use of drones to a 10 year old mechanic that hasn't been changed rather than to the buff that drone ships have received is amusing.

are goons really trying to tell us it took them 10 years, and some one else showing them, that drone ships are overpowered and drone assist needs removing? come on. it doesn't take goons 10 years to figure out the path of least resistance.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1051 - 2014-02-09 09:13:52 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
blaming drone assist for drone proliferation is still laughable, though..


CCP doesn't agree with you. Maybe try convincing them? Or don't w/e this thread is **** anyway.


i'm honestly not that bothered about them removing drone assist or not; i've made that clear on many occasions. however trying to attribute the mass use of drones to a 10 year old mechanic that hasn't been changed rather than to the buff that drone ships have received is amusing.

are goons really trying to tell us it took them 10 years, and some one else showing them, that drone ships are overpowered and drone assist needs removing? come on. it doesn't take goons 10 years to figure out the path of least resistance.

it's not so much that it took 10 years for anyone to figure it out so much as it took 10 years for it to become the server bottleneck

remember, this change is as much about keeping servers from being on fire as it is about game balance
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1052 - 2014-02-09 09:15:16 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
i'm honestly not that bothered about them removing drone assist or not; i've made that clear on many occasions. however trying to attribute the mass use of drones to a 10 year old mechanic that hasn't been changed rather than to the buff that drone ships have received is amusing.


It's both, sort of a perfect storm thing. Drone ships get buffed, sentries become a doable thing, drone assist pushes it into the stratosphere by doing 2 things: allowing carriers to use them and avoid any traditional downsides they would have (lock time etc), and making it simple enough so that even the dumbest fleet of mouthbreathers can make very good use of it.

CCP's decided that altering assist is the best way of tackling the problem, at least for now (and in the case of carriers, it's p. much the right move). Whether it's right or wrong or enough, time will tell I guess? I'm sure some sentry concepts will still eat **** alive, but whether or not they'll be workable enough for a pile of idiots to turn into a critical mass problem is something else entirely.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Dave Stark
#1053 - 2014-02-09 09:17:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
blaming drone assist for drone proliferation is still laughable, though..


CCP doesn't agree with you. Maybe try convincing them? Or don't w/e this thread is **** anyway.


i'm honestly not that bothered about them removing drone assist or not; i've made that clear on many occasions. however trying to attribute the mass use of drones to a 10 year old mechanic that hasn't been changed rather than to the buff that drone ships have received is amusing.

are goons really trying to tell us it took them 10 years, and some one else showing them, that drone ships are overpowered and drone assist needs removing? come on. it doesn't take goons 10 years to figure out the path of least resistance.

it's not so much that it took 10 years for anyone to figure it out so much as it took 10 years for it to become the server bottleneck

remember, this change is as much about keeping servers from being on fire as it is about game balance


that's great, but carriers are still drone ships so you haven't solved any of the server bottle neck issue. they're still going to drop drones because they're drone ships.

subcap drone ships are only so prolific because the cfc were told to use them in order to facilitate a change like this. that has never been a secret. pretty sure mittani even said it in one of his state of the whatevers. alternatively, drone ships are prolific because they have good prerequisites for being in a carrier... either way drone assist isn't the cause of the proliferation.

removing drone assist isn't going to remove drones from the grid. removing drone spewing ships will do that. if sentries are still a better weapon system than other alternatives (see the two graphs i linked a page or two ago) then they're still going to be used.

this change doesn't really fix a single thing.
Mario Putzo
#1054 - 2014-02-09 09:21:14 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

lmbo okay let me know when baltecfleets roll out clouds of light drones


It doesn't matter what size you use. Drones put twice the load on the server than players do. If you have Baltec Fleet and their 3 sentries...That is 4000 Objects. 3000 of which are acting like 1.5 Stationary Megas.

I don't think you fully grasp the concept of the load AI scripts in large volume put on servers.

The problem is 100% drones. Period. Just like it was like 7 years ago.

It doesn't matter if your fleet is called BaltecFleet, Wreckingball, Welp Fleet, or Dunk Fleet.




alright I am gonna explain this to you slowly

when in combat against other spaceships

a megathron does not deploy any drones, at all

this may be difficult for you to understand but just bear with me here

no drones at all

none

the only reason it carries any drones is to add the barest hint of assistance to structure grinding when forced to do so because structure grinding is literally shitler

now

when a ship does not deploy drones as a matter of routine in its SPACESHIP OPERATIONS

it can't affect the same amount of lag as doctrines which rely 100% on drones to do their damage and can also scale much faster to large number of pilots due to minimum intelligence and participation requirements

attempting to go "A SHIP CAN FIELD DRONES THEREFORE IT IS JUST AS TAXING AS DRONE-CENTRIC SHIPS" is missing the special needs forest for the retar[i]/[i]d trees


It doesn't ******* matter.

CFC just spent 4 months using nothing but Domis and drones and complaining. It is not about the mega. Its not about the domi. its about the drones. The Domis didn't cause lag in HED, not more than the Carriers did. It was the drones the brought. It doesn't matter who they were assigned to, just that they were there. It is a problem with drones. 6VDT didn't have an issue, there was only what 200 Prophecies there, and Megas. Not 1500 Domis and 500 Carriers.

It is drones. You could have individually assigned those drones, and probably killed nothing. Bur it still wouldn't have changed the fact when the 700 Dreads came in they went into line behind 36000 peak objects.

This is why Rises fix is irrelevant. Its not going to fix the problem because people are still going to use 5+ Droens each because there is no reason not to. Get on grid. Drop 5000 Drones. GG.

Fix the ******* drones.

woah buddy slow down there

unlike you I was actually in 6VDT, bridged in a bomber and covops to probe down d/cs and murder them

lag was so hilariously bad that it took me an hour to kill an exequorer

I get that you are trying like hell to save your gimmick incursion brain-deficient fleet thing but you're gonna need to find some better examples than that

and I just gave you plenty of reasons why modern fleet comps will actually not use drones to large degrees now but feel free to continue wearing your blinders I guess



Ya well GoonFleet has always been pretty **** in its space ship operations. So I wouldn't take PVP advice from you on when or when to not use drones. Additionally I was in 6VDT, HED, B-R. Crazy Eh. 6VDT was laggy but I clearly recall a Dread Fleet coming in no problem. Saw the dreads saw the chat spam and epeen thrusting. You know what I didn't see in HED. Well at least not "in a fleet" Dreads. But I certainly saw a ton of tears on EVEO....The RUS were ready to quit.

You know what I didn't see in B-R Drones. ya there wasn't that many drones. and like 70 Titans died and over 10 Trillion in ISK. 21 Hours of Tidi....it got laggy like twice, but for the most part was just Tidi. You know what other fight that was like. Akasai. I was there too....I know I know I am a whore I get around. vOv. Drones in the numbers we see in fights now, are causing the exact same issue that drones caused like 7 years ago when they changed the quantities and such of sub cap drone use.

Just another example of CCp fixing a symptom instead of solving the problem. Funnily enough it is a repeat issue from the past biting them in the ass again. Maybe next week CCP will announce speeding up the rest of the game to positive Tidi so they have more Tidi to play with moving forward. Can't wait to fight at 200% Tidi in 1v1's in an empty system at the sun.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#1055 - 2014-02-09 09:22:16 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:

this change doesn't really fix a single thing.


No you dont get it this is to fix a bottleneck created by the CFC on purpose to combat a mechanic that has been in the game for 10 years, it obviously fixes something, nobody can tell you what that is but it obviously fixes something.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1056 - 2014-02-09 09:23:59 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

Because nothing else has changed that might have made drone assist a problem in the last 10 years c/d?


no, i don't think goons whining constantly is a sufficient change that requires the change in drone assist.
also considering how long drone assist has been used in incursions without an issue; it's quite clear drone assist in itself really isn't the issue and the things that have changed are more likely to be the issue.


Dave that's dishonest of you, and I am disappointed because I know for a fact that you know better than to try that bullshit on me of all people.

Drone boat bonuses significantly buffed, Drone Damage amps added, server performance increases, fleet meta changes, the gigantic increase in capital ship ownership.

All of those are significant changes in the meta that directly relate to sentry doctrines. I know perfectly well that you're capable of looking past your own immediate self interest to appreciate the wider picture.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1057 - 2014-02-09 09:24:21 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
blaming drone assist for drone proliferation is still laughable, though..


CCP doesn't agree with you. Maybe try convincing them? Or don't w/e this thread is **** anyway.


i'm honestly not that bothered about them removing drone assist or not; i've made that clear on many occasions. however trying to attribute the mass use of drones to a 10 year old mechanic that hasn't been changed rather than to the buff that drone ships have received is amusing.

are goons really trying to tell us it took them 10 years, and some one else showing them, that drone ships are overpowered and drone assist needs removing? come on. it doesn't take goons 10 years to figure out the path of least resistance.

it's not so much that it took 10 years for anyone to figure it out so much as it took 10 years for it to become the server bottleneck

remember, this change is as much about keeping servers from being on fire as it is about game balance


that's great, but carriers are still drone ships so you haven't solved any of the server bottle neck issue. they're still going to drop drones because they're drone ships.

subcap drone ships are only so prolific because the cfc were told to use them in order to facilitate a change like this. that has never been a secret. pretty sure mittani even said it in one of his state of the whatevers. alternatively, drone ships are prolific because they have good prerequisites for being in a carrier... either way drone assist isn't the cause of the proliferation.

removing drone assist isn't going to remove drones from the grid. removing drone spewing ships will do that. if sentries are still a better weapon system than other alternatives (see the two graphs i linked a page or two ago) then they're still going to be used.

this change doesn't really fix a single thing.

really I am running out of ways to describe why making drones less tenable to use in large groups reduces their usage so I will just refer you to one of the many GBS LOGISTICS AND FIVES SUPPORT [MY 5S] posts on the subject

trying to insinuate this is not the case is pretty well defeated at this point in the thread
Dave Stark
#1058 - 2014-02-09 09:24:51 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

this change doesn't really fix a single thing.


No you dont get it this is to fix a bottleneck created by the CFC on purpose to combat a mechanic that has been in the game for 10 years, it obviously fixes something, nobody can tell you what that is but it obviously fixes something.



prepare your tinfoil!

you know that good ol' "nerf high sec, null sec income sucks" chestnut? well this has had a negative impact upon incursions despite ccp saying they didn't want it to.
it's all a very clever ruse to lower the isk/hour of incursions!
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1059 - 2014-02-09 09:25:37 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

this change doesn't really fix a single thing.


No you dont get it this is to fix a bottleneck created by the CFC on purpose to combat a mechanic that has been in the game for 10 years, it obviously fixes something, nobody can tell you what that is but it obviously fixes something.



And Grath, you're almost as bad. I know you're no more capable of looking past your own immediate interest than you are of cutting your own **** off, but I also know that you're so well aware that conditions have changed in the last 10 years that your nose must have grown 8 inches to compensate when you told that gigantic lie.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1060 - 2014-02-09 09:26:24 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:

it's all a very clever ruse to lower the isk/hour of incursions!


Hi Dinsdale

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016