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[Rubicon 1.3] Drone Assist change

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Mario Putzo
#1021 - 2014-02-09 07:49:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Snow Axe wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Do you understand that nearly every single ship in this game has a drone bay. That every large fleet ship has a drone bay. Are you saying that nobody is ever going to carry drones again because CCP Rise made a fleet assign to 5 people instead of 1. Even if CCP Rise removed Drone Assign are you telling me that no one is ever going to use drones again. Ever.


Of course drone usage won't end. It'll likely return to more acceptable (server-strain wise) levels. You know, before drone assist sentry fleets became all the rage. That's what they're betting, anyway.

BTW if you think that drone assist wasn't one of the biggest reasons said fleets were popular then looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool


Its not the drone assist. Its the fact that 4000 dudes in a system are adding 20,000+ Objects that required to be tracked. That is 24000+ Individual objects. The strain doesn't change because 1 dude controls ****, the strain is the 24,000 objects asking each other where the hell they are and what the hell they are doing.

Do you not understand how networking and server load works?

Its not Drone assign that causes this load. Its the 20K+ Drones that are capable of being launched in addition to the 4K pilots in system.

With or without drone assign the fact drones are on field is the problem. It doesn't matter who controls them.

(also drone assist has been around for what 10 years now. The fact its only become a problem now isn't because of drone assist, its because you can put 4000 dudes in a single system with 5+ drones each...and that isn't the assist that is the issue. Its the server not capable of scaling past 4K dudes + 5+ Drones each reliably.)
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1022 - 2014-02-09 07:55:30 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Do you understand that nearly every single ship in this game has a drone bay. That every large fleet ship has a drone bay. Are you saying that nobody is ever going to carry drones again because CCP Rise made a fleet assign to 5 people instead of 1. Even if CCP Rise removed Drone Assign are you telling me that no one is ever going to use drones again. Ever.


Of course drone usage won't end. It'll likely return to more acceptable (server-strain wise) levels. You know, before drone assist sentry fleets became all the rage. That's what they're betting, anyway.

BTW if you think that drone assist wasn't one of the biggest reasons said fleets were popular then looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool


Its not the drone assist. Its the fact that 4000 dudes in a system are adding 20,000+ Objects that required to be tracked. That is 24000+ Individual objects. The strain doesn't change because 1 dude controls ****, the strain is the 24,000 objects asking each other where the hell they are and what the hell they are doing.

Do you not understand how networking and server load works?

Its not Drone assign that causes this load. Its the 20K+ Drones that are capable of being launched in addition to the 4K pilots in system.


unfortunately for your argument, drone assist enables this sort of drone usage in the first place

carriers have shitnormous EHP, can poop out lots of drones and can hold lots of drones, and have hilarious RR capability, but they have horrendous scan resolution and are hilariously vulnerable to damps, so they are probably a poor choice for fielding drones on account of not being able to lock more than one subcap an hour or other hyperbole, right?

but whoops there was a way to make the poor scan resolution and ewar vulnerability of the carrier completely irrelevant by telling your drones to fire on the same nonsense that one person is, oh and coincidentally this person is receiving full reps and RSBs from the entire fleet

now that you've removed nearly all of the penalties, you get what is called positive feedback that enables the use of drones to increase geometrically

let me know if this was too fast for you to follow and I'll break it down old school
Mario Putzo
#1023 - 2014-02-09 08:03:33 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Do you understand that nearly every single ship in this game has a drone bay. That every large fleet ship has a drone bay. Are you saying that nobody is ever going to carry drones again because CCP Rise made a fleet assign to 5 people instead of 1. Even if CCP Rise removed Drone Assign are you telling me that no one is ever going to use drones again. Ever.


Of course drone usage won't end. It'll likely return to more acceptable (server-strain wise) levels. You know, before drone assist sentry fleets became all the rage. That's what they're betting, anyway.

BTW if you think that drone assist wasn't one of the biggest reasons said fleets were popular then looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool


Its not the drone assist. Its the fact that 4000 dudes in a system are adding 20,000+ Objects that required to be tracked. That is 24000+ Individual objects. The strain doesn't change because 1 dude controls ****, the strain is the 24,000 objects asking each other where the hell they are and what the hell they are doing.

Do you not understand how networking and server load works?

Its not Drone assign that causes this load. Its the 20K+ Drones that are capable of being launched in addition to the 4K pilots in system.


unfortunately for your argument, drone assist enables this sort of drone usage in the first place

carriers have shitnormous EHP, can poop out lots of drones and can hold lots of drones, and have hilarious RR capability, but they have horrendous scan resolution and are hilariously vulnerable to damps, so they are probably a poor choice for fielding drones on account of not being able to lock more than one subcap an hour or other hyperbole, right?

but whoops there was a way to make the poor scan resolution and ewar vulnerability of the carrier completely irrelevant by telling your drones to fire on the same nonsense that one person is, oh and coincidentally this person is receiving full reps and RSBs from the entire fleet

now that you've removed nearly all of the penalties, you get what is called positive feedback that enables the use of drones to increase geometrically

let me know if this was too fast for you to follow and I'll break it down old school


Wow.

Are you reading off a talking point sheet for when the resident CSM gets put into a corner by random EVEO scrub?

It doesn't matter the ship size. The problem is drones pinging the server for information. 1000 Megas, cause just as much load as 1000 Domis. Both can release 5 Drones. Both fleets represent 6000 individual objects. Regardless of whether or not you assign drones on anyone or not, or their effective ehp, or their scan res.

You wan't to argue about ship ehp and rep mechanics open a thread we can argue about Subcaps vs Capitals there. This thread is about a fix to as laid out in OP by CCP Rise:
1) A subjective issue - Players having fun in fleets by assigning their own drones to a target
2) Server strain caused by use of drones.

His fix does not change either of those issues.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1024 - 2014-02-09 08:11:59 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

unfortunately for your argument, drone assist enables this sort of drone usage in the first place

carriers have shitnormous EHP, can poop out lots of drones and can hold lots of drones, and have hilarious RR capability, but they have horrendous scan resolution and are hilariously vulnerable to damps, so they are probably a poor choice for fielding drones on account of not being able to lock more than one subcap an hour or other hyperbole, right?

but whoops there was a way to make the poor scan resolution and ewar vulnerability of the carrier completely irrelevant by telling your drones to fire on the same nonsense that one person is, oh and coincidentally this person is receiving full reps and RSBs from the entire fleet

now that you've removed nearly all of the penalties, you get what is called positive feedback that enables the use of drones to increase geometrically

let me know if this was too fast for you to follow and I'll break it down old school


Wow.

Are you reading off a talking point sheet for when the resident CSM gets put into a corner by random EVEO scrub?

It doesn't matter the ship size. The problem is drones pinging the server for information. 1000 Megas, cause just as much load as 1000 Domis. Both can release 5 Drones. Both fleets represent 6000 individual objects. Regardless of whether or not you assign drones on anyone or not, or their effective ehp, or their scan res.

You wan't to argue about ship ehp and rep mechanics open a thread we can argue about Subcaps vs Capitals there. This thread is about a fix to as laid out in OP by CCP Rise:
1) A subjective issue - Players having fun in fleets by assigning their own drones to a target
2) Server strain caused by use of drones.

His fix does not change either of those issues.

you appear to have what is diplomatically considered a tenuous grasp on reality here

a megathron fleet has 75 m^3 drone bandwidth and drone bay, this is only enough for 3 sentries

also it doesn't typically deploy these drones for combat because they do fuck all for damage without DDAs and limit mobility unnecessarily

if a megathron in fact has any drones at all, it will only use them to shoot cynojammers because that's the one situation where it is warranted

a mega fleet is way better on the server than a domi fleet or a carrier fleet
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#1025 - 2014-02-09 08:16:47 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:


BTW if you think that drone assist wasn't one of the biggest reasons said fleets were popular then looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool


Yea, im sure its got nothing to do with A) CFC ordering its pilots to use drone assign so much that CCP has no choice but to fix it and B) the fact that Domis, unlike other BS, **** anything smaller than a BS (like logi and armor hacs).

Glad you know a lot about game mechanics.

Here's a tip: We have at least 2 other fleet comps that use sentries that don't use assign, and its because of the way sentries fire and track on smaller targets. None of those will be retired because of this change, in fact I'm betting at least one sees more usage because its not the drone assign thats broken its the sentry drones, the domi, and the ishtar.

If you were to nuke those two plat forms you'd A) crap on the only hac that saw increased usage after the hac balance pass and B) stop drone usage almost all together because those are the only two really good fleet combat ships that use them.

Then you'd just see carriers, and to be honest carriers can be countered as we have seen so long as you dont believe that the right tool for every job is a sub cap.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#1026 - 2014-02-09 08:19:14 UTC
By the way, there is virtually no mechanic in EVE that would hold up to 35k dudes being ordered to constantly use it until CCP change it.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1027 - 2014-02-09 08:24:37 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Yea, im sure its got nothing to do with A) CFC ordering its pilots to use drone assign so much that CCP has no choice but to fix it


If it actually took some level of skill and input to use it, do you think the CFC (or any large entity for that matter) would have able to pull off any success with it?

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Dave Stark
#1028 - 2014-02-09 08:29:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
since this page seems to have sprung forth about 8 fountains of tears pages while i was asleep. have goons actually put forth a good argument for the drone assist nerf yet other than "huzzah, we whined, and whined, and whined, and he devs took favor on us!"?

don't get me wrong, i kinda like goons. usually they have some good points. however this isn't business as usual as no real arguments have been put forth and it's just been whine, after whine, after attacks on arguments not made, and more whining.

there has yet to be a single plausable reason why drone assist should be removed. mass whining from the CFC isn't a reason, nor is the "it's boring" reason from ccp (because if being boring was a reason to change somthing, mining would have been overhauled a long time ago).

also, look at the two graphs found here. i think it's pretty obvious why drones are popular, and it's not for the assist feature. it's because the drone hulls got bonuses that put them above non-drone ships.
so why is drone assist being fiddled with when that will have no impact upon the fact that sentries out class other weapon systems on ships of similar sizes?
(granted this article was before the omni change)
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1029 - 2014-02-09 08:34:50 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
By the way, there is virtually no mechanic in EVE that would hold up to 35k dudes being ordered to constantly use it until CCP change it.

that's a pretty depressing amount of fatalism there, you should probably disband now
Mario Putzo
#1030 - 2014-02-09 08:35:10 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

unfortunately for your argument, drone assist enables this sort of drone usage in the first place

carriers have shitnormous EHP, can poop out lots of drones and can hold lots of drones, and have hilarious RR capability, but they have horrendous scan resolution and are hilariously vulnerable to damps, so they are probably a poor choice for fielding drones on account of not being able to lock more than one subcap an hour or other hyperbole, right?

but whoops there was a way to make the poor scan resolution and ewar vulnerability of the carrier completely irrelevant by telling your drones to fire on the same nonsense that one person is, oh and coincidentally this person is receiving full reps and RSBs from the entire fleet

now that you've removed nearly all of the penalties, you get what is called positive feedback that enables the use of drones to increase geometrically

let me know if this was too fast for you to follow and I'll break it down old school


Wow.

Are you reading off a talking point sheet for when the resident CSM gets put into a corner by random EVEO scrub?

It doesn't matter the ship size. The problem is drones pinging the server for information. 1000 Megas, cause just as much load as 1000 Domis. Both can release 5 Drones. Both fleets represent 6000 individual objects. Regardless of whether or not you assign drones on anyone or not, or their effective ehp, or their scan res.

You wan't to argue about ship ehp and rep mechanics open a thread we can argue about Subcaps vs Capitals there. This thread is about a fix to as laid out in OP by CCP Rise:
1) A subjective issue - Players having fun in fleets by assigning their own drones to a target
2) Server strain caused by use of drones.

His fix does not change either of those issues.

you appear to have what is diplomatically considered a tenuous grasp on reality here

a megathron fleet has 75 m^3 drone bandwidth and drone bay, this is only enough for 3 sentries

also it doesn't typically deploy these drones for combat because they do fuck all for damage without DDAs and limit mobility unnecessarily

if a megathron in fact has any drones at all, it will only use them to shoot cynojammers because that's the one situation where it is warranted

a mega fleet is way better on the server than a domi fleet or a carrier fleet


3 Sentries, 5 Mediums, 5 Lights.

Size doesn't matter. 1 Drones is 1 Drone. Trouble is unlike a human it does **** like this.

>Should I move?
>Yes
>what location
>x,y,z
>TARGET ON GRID
>where is it
>x,y,z
>should I move?
>where is it?1
>yes
>what location
>xyz
>xyz1
>LOCK TARGET

and so on and so forth for every drone, and every ship on grid.

Unlike you the drone asks the game what to do. You tell it what to do. It is almost double the information load on the game. Per Drone.

Its the same problem they had back in the day when Ships could **** like 10 of the ******* out.

Want to fix the only actual issue in this whole thread.

Cut drone bays in ships that do not have drone bonuses.

Drone assist is irrelevant to the integrity of the server, and is marginally relevant to discussion in fleet combat.
Mario Putzo
#1031 - 2014-02-09 08:36:40 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
since this page seems to have sprung forth about 8 fountains of tears pages while i was asleep. have goons actually put forth a good argument for the drone assist nerf yet other than "huzzah, we whined, and whined, and whined, and he devs took favor on us!"?

don't get me wrong, i kinda like goons. usually they have some good points. however this isn't business as usual as no real arguments have been put forth and it's just been whine, after whine, after attacks on arguments not made, and more whining.

there has yet to be a single plausable reason why drone assist should be removed. mass whining from the CFC isn't a reason, nor is the "it's boring" reason from ccp (because if being boring was a reason to change somthing, mining would have been overhauled a long time ago).

also, look at the two graphs found here. i think it's pretty obvious why drones are popular, and it's not for the assist feature. it's because the drone hulls got bonuses that put them above non-drone ships.
so why is drone assist being fiddled with when that will have no impact upon the fact that sentries out class other weapon systems on ships of similar sizes?
(granted this article was before the omni change)


Ive just been getting trolled m8
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1032 - 2014-02-09 08:39:23 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

unfortunately for your argument, drone assist enables this sort of drone usage in the first place

carriers have shitnormous EHP, can poop out lots of drones and can hold lots of drones, and have hilarious RR capability, but they have horrendous scan resolution and are hilariously vulnerable to damps, so they are probably a poor choice for fielding drones on account of not being able to lock more than one subcap an hour or other hyperbole, right?

but whoops there was a way to make the poor scan resolution and ewar vulnerability of the carrier completely irrelevant by telling your drones to fire on the same nonsense that one person is, oh and coincidentally this person is receiving full reps and RSBs from the entire fleet

now that you've removed nearly all of the penalties, you get what is called positive feedback that enables the use of drones to increase geometrically

let me know if this was too fast for you to follow and I'll break it down old school


Wow.

Are you reading off a talking point sheet for when the resident CSM gets put into a corner by random EVEO scrub?

It doesn't matter the ship size. The problem is drones pinging the server for information. 1000 Megas, cause just as much load as 1000 Domis. Both can release 5 Drones. Both fleets represent 6000 individual objects. Regardless of whether or not you assign drones on anyone or not, or their effective ehp, or their scan res.

You wan't to argue about ship ehp and rep mechanics open a thread we can argue about Subcaps vs Capitals there. This thread is about a fix to as laid out in OP by CCP Rise:
1) A subjective issue - Players having fun in fleets by assigning their own drones to a target
2) Server strain caused by use of drones.

His fix does not change either of those issues.

you appear to have what is diplomatically considered a tenuous grasp on reality here

a megathron fleet has 75 m^3 drone bandwidth and drone bay, this is only enough for 3 sentries

also it doesn't typically deploy these drones for combat because they do fuck all for damage without DDAs and limit mobility unnecessarily

if a megathron in fact has any drones at all, it will only use them to shoot cynojammers because that's the one situation where it is warranted

a mega fleet is way better on the server than a domi fleet or a carrier fleet


3 Sentries, 5 Mediums, 5 Lights.

Size doesn't matter. 1 Drones is 1 Drone. Trouble is unlike a human it does **** like this.

>Should I move?
>Yes
>what location
>x,y,z
>TARGET ON GRID
>where is it
>x,y,z
>should I move?
>where is it?1
>yes
>what location
>xyz
>xyz1
>LOCK TARGET

and so on and so forth for every drone, and every ship on grid.

Unlike you the drone asks the game what to do. You tell it what to do. It is almost double the information load on the game. Per Drone.

Its the same problem they had back in the day when Ships could **** like 10 of the ******* out.

Want to fix the only actual issue in this whole thread.

Cut drone bays in ships that do not have drone bonuses.

Drone assist is irrelevant to the integrity of the server, and is marginally relevant to discussion in fleet combat.

lmbo okay let me know when baltecfleets roll out clouds of light drones
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1033 - 2014-02-09 08:42:34 UTC
i guess if you are so developmentally challenged to believe that making drones easier to command than any other weapon system in eve somehow does not engender mass use of said weapons system then there's little else to say besides "gas thread ban op" because goddamn you are operating in some sort of reality alteration field
Dave Stark
#1034 - 2014-02-09 08:45:44 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
i guess if you are so developmentally challenged to believe that making drones easier to command than any other weapon system in eve somehow does not engender mass use of said weapons system then there's little else to say besides "gas thread ban op" because goddamn you are operating in some sort of reality alteration field


sorry which change made drones easier to command than any other weapon system?
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1035 - 2014-02-09 08:48:32 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
sorry which change made drones easier to command than any other weapon system?


Assist, you know, the one that changed that you've got a problem with because it literally will adversely affect an incursion fleet's isk/hr.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1036 - 2014-02-09 08:48:39 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
i guess if you are so developmentally challenged to believe that making drones easier to command than any other weapon system in eve somehow does not engender mass use of said weapons system then there's little else to say besides "gas thread ban op" because goddamn you are operating in some sort of reality alteration field


sorry which change made drones easier to command than any other weapon system?

d r o n e a s s i s t

it is the topic of this thread (ostensibly)
Mario Putzo
#1037 - 2014-02-09 08:49:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Promiscuous Female wrote:

lmbo okay let me know when baltecfleets roll out clouds of light drones


It doesn't matter what size you use. Drones put twice the load on the server than players do. If you have Baltec Fleet and their 3 sentries...That is 4000 Objects. 3000 of which are acting like 2 Megas each in terms of load.

I don't think you fully grasp the concept of the load AI scripts in large volume put on servers.

The problem is 100% drones. Period. Just like it was like 7 years ago.

It doesn't matter if your fleet is called BaltecFleet, Wreckingball, Welp Fleet, or Dunk Fleet.
Dave Stark
#1038 - 2014-02-09 08:50:08 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
i guess if you are so developmentally challenged to believe that making drones easier to command than any other weapon system in eve somehow does not engender mass use of said weapons system then there's little else to say besides "gas thread ban op" because goddamn you are operating in some sort of reality alteration field


sorry which change made drones easier to command than any other weapon system?

d r o n e a s s i s t

it is the topic of this thread (ostensibly)


drone assist hasn't been changed. so which change is it you were referring to?
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#1039 - 2014-02-09 08:51:42 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
On the topic of "killing ships," let me tell you my personal experience with every MMO that I have played.

Devs announce that scissors is being buffed and rock is being nerfed. Across the forums people are outraged. Rock is fine, nerf paper! Do not nerf Rock, that is all I have ever loved playing and I will unsubscribe if you do this! And so on.

Meanwhile in every goon guild I have joined, we adapt. Rock is old news and Scissors is the new black? Everyone get ready to run Scissors into the ground, let's exploit it for maximum fun until it, too, is inevitably nerfed.

MMOs have nerf cycles. Whine on the forums if you want; or, deal with it and fine a way to exploit the new thing. :]


I argue that... 10/10 times we would run with scissors regardless... after all we are told not to, and it's fun to watch if someone stumbles.
Dave Stark
#1040 - 2014-02-09 08:53:02 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

lmbo okay let me know when baltecfleets roll out clouds of light drones


It doesn't matter what size you use. Drones put twice the load on the server than players do. If you have Baltec Fleet and their 3 sentries...That is 4000 Objects. 3000 of which are acting like 2 Megas each in terms of load.

I don't think you fully grasp the concept of the load AI scripts in large volume put on servers.

The problem is 100% drones. Period. Just like it was like 7 years ago.

It doesn't matter if your fleet is called BaltecFleet, Wreckingball, Welp Fleet, or Dunk Fleet.


during the grinding of delve, baltec fleets used 2 sentries, unless that has changed since.