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Gate Gun Iteration

Author
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#1 - 2014-02-07 16:57:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Swiftstrike1
Gate guns haven't changed in forever. Tanking gate guns used to require serious effort e.g. RR battleships, a carrier, T2 logi cruisers, etc... It's now a trivial matter to tank gate guns with a few T1 logistic frigates.

Gate guns could do with an update, but not something simple like a flat damage increase. They should have a dynamic response to the crime being committed.

Some Parameters
  • Security status of system - 0.4, 0.3, 0.2, 0.1
  • Level of crime - suspect offence, criminal offence
  • Aggressor's ship size - small, medium, large, capital
  • Aggressor's ship Tech level - Tech 1, Tech 2, Tech 3
  • Aggressor's faction standing - Excellent, Good, Neutral, Bad, Terrible
  • Aggressor's security status - positive (including zero), negative, pirate (-5.0 and below)
  • Number of crimes committed - 0, 1, ..., max.

  • Potential Gun Changes (in no particular order)
  • current gate guns - perhaps lower the base response below current levels
  • increased gate gun damage
  • guns at the gate where you offended remember your crimes when you warp off and back again
  • racial ewar batteries - ECM, sensor damps, tracking disruptors, target painters
  • webbing batteries
  • warp disrupt batteries
  • warp scram batteries
  • energy neutralising batteries
  • local cyno jam?
  • summon the faction navy, which warps around the system chasing you like fighter drones

  • Pros
  • Adds depth and complexity to piracy
  • Makes lowsec slightly safer for newbros at stargates/stations
  • Will hopefully encourage more newbros to venture into lowsec
  • Doesn't change anything away from gates and stations
  • Doesn't mess with Hisec or Nullsec

  • Cons
  • Makes piracy/crime harder (but not impossible!)
  • It would be complicated

  • I can't help but feel people are gonna say things like "post your lossmail", "gtfo carebear" and "piracy is a valid career". Let's speed things up and just assume all that is received and understood. Discuss! Big smile

    Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.

    Mag's
    Azn Empire
    #2 - 2014-02-07 17:16:47 UTC
    Why?

    Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

    Scuzzy Logic
    Space Spuds
    #3 - 2014-02-07 17:19:38 UTC
    In my honest opinion, just giving the gate guns the sleeper AI so thet they'd focus-fire logi would solve the problem.

    In truth, CCP won't fix it, just like they never fixed vamping off the neon sign to run triple repper dominixes.
    Swiftstrike1
    Swiftstrike Incorporated
    #4 - 2014-02-07 17:32:58 UTC
    Mag's wrote:
    Why?

    Because as it currently stands, you can either tank the guns or you can't and it's easy to predict which category your ship/gang/fleet falls into. Frankly, it's a little boring.

    Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.

    Danika Princip
    GoonWaffe
    Goonswarm Federation
    #5 - 2014-02-07 17:45:38 UTC
    Mag's wrote:
    Why?


    Because he wants to warp through Rancer without getting shot of course.
    Milton Middleson
    Rifterlings
    #6 - 2014-02-07 17:49:32 UTC
    What if we iterated gate guns out of the game?
    stoicfaux
    #7 - 2014-02-07 18:32:27 UTC
    What if we allowed people to invest/donate isk to upgrade or to buy additional sentries in a system? It might help with building "safer" trade routes through some parts of space. Because sandbox.

    Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

    Alundil
    Rolled Out
    #8 - 2014-02-07 19:17:53 UTC
    stoicfaux wrote:
    What if we allowed people to invest/donate isk to upgrade or to buy additional sentries in a system? It might help with building "safer" trade routes through some parts of space. Because sandbox.


    [disclaimer]
    I don't participate in piracy
    [/disclaimer]

    The only way that this would even be remotely balanced is if shooting those player anchored guns (regardless of the seclevel of the system) causes zero aggression from existing empire/concord gate guns and generated killsmails against the anchoring pilot/corp/alliance. Otherwise this would simply result in the spamming of guns throughout most trade route systems and provide near impenetrable safety for pilots wishing to afk through those systems without support and/or in lol-bling ships/freighters.

    I'm right behind you

    ShahFluffers
    Ice Fire Warriors
    Infinite Pew
    #9 - 2014-02-07 20:44:54 UTC
    The last time a DEV even suggested the possibility of gate guns ramping up firepower for "(reasons)" every single outlaw, pirate, and Faction Warfare member shrieked their opposition to this in unison... because almost everyone in low-sec fights on gates, security status is not a clear indicator of "good or bad" in low-sec, and it would prevent escalations of fights.

    When general gate gun aggro was removed (see: you could warp from the gate that was shooting you (for whatever reason) to another gate without carrying that aggro and being shot) every outlaw, pirate, and Faction Warfare member collectively cheered... and more fighting resulted because no one had to sit in stations or at POSs for 15+ minutes to wait out their timers anymore.
    Mag's
    Azn Empire
    #10 - 2014-02-08 09:03:44 UTC
    Swiftstrike1 wrote:
    Mag's wrote:
    Why?

    Because as it currently stands, you can either tank the guns or you can't and it's easy to predict which category your ship/gang/fleet falls into. Frankly, it's a little boring.
    So you think gathering your friends together to fight pirates and having guns aid you, is boring?

    You would rather nerf someone else's play style, so you knew the outcome would be more in your favour?

    Try reading ShahFluffers post again and try to understand why this is not needed. If you can get past your own boredom threshold that is.

    Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

    Swiftstrike1
    Swiftstrike Incorporated
    #11 - 2014-02-08 13:31:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Swiftstrike1
    Mag's wrote:
    So you think gathering your friends together to fight pirates and having guns aid you, is boring?

    You would rather nerf someone else's play style, so you knew the outcome would be more in your favour?

    Try reading ShahFluffers post again and try to understand why this is not needed. If you can get past your own boredom threshold that is.

    Wow, save some hostility for Oulley... oh wait, J0KER kicked you guys out of there... Never mind then, we can be hostile on the forums instead if you want.

    I'm not trying to suggest anything that would nerf piracy. I like piracy, I just don't get to do it on gates very often due to miliitia fondness of frigs and dessy gangs.

    When I say "sentry gun escalation" I don't mean guns + X + Y + Z. I mean something more along the lines of this:
  • If sentry guns are unable to kill an offender, they change tactics or switch targets every 30 seconds.
  • Perhaps 1 gun powers down so that 1 webifier can come online.
  • If multiple pilots offend, warp out, then come back and re-offend, the gate might shut down a gun in favour of a warp scram
  • If you are fighting on a caldari gate, you might get 1 gun powering down and 1 ECM battery powering up to jam offending RR
  • If it's a Gallente gate, the guns might shut down in favour of a damp battery
  • Racial gun AI like this would bring different flavours to fights in different regions
  • A fleet comp might be well suited fighting against guns in amarr space, but not in caldari space

  • Would that not be more interesting than raw DPS?

    Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.

    Schmata Bastanold
    In Boobiez We Trust
    #12 - 2014-02-08 13:53:09 UTC
    Sure, all your escalation ideas are cool but let me counter gate guns by ECM, TD, SD, neuts, speed and resists.

    You wanna make NPCs use all pvp means and mods just as players can and do?
    Let me counter them just as I would do when fighting another player.

    Invalid signature format

    Mag's
    Azn Empire
    #13 - 2014-02-08 14:05:25 UTC
    Swiftstrike1 wrote:
    Mag's wrote:
    So you think gathering your friends together to fight pirates and having guns aid you, is boring?

    You would rather nerf someone else's play style, so you knew the outcome would be more in your favour?

    Try reading ShahFluffers post again and try to understand why this is not needed. If you can get past your own boredom threshold that is.

    Wow, save some hostility for Oulley... oh wait, J0KER kicked you guys out of there... Never mind then, we can be hostile on the forums instead if you want.

    I'm not trying to suggest anything that would nerf piracy. I like piracy, I just don't get to do it on gates very often due to miliitia fondness of frigs and dessy gangs.

    When I say "sentry gun escalation" I don't mean guns + X + Y + Z. I mean something more along the lines of this:
  • If sentry guns are unable to kill an offender, they change tactics or switch targets every 30 seconds.
  • Perhaps 1 gun powers down so that 1 webifier can come online.
  • If multiple pilots offend, warp out, then come back and re-offend, the gate might shut down a gun in favour of a warp scram
  • If you are fighting on a caldari gate, you might get 1 gun powering down and 1 ECM battery powering up to jam offending RR
  • If it's a Gallente gate, the guns might shut down in favour of a damp battery
  • Racial gun AI like this would bring different flavours to fights in different regions
  • A fleet comp might be well suited fighting against guns in amarr space, but not in caldari space

  • Would that not be more interesting than raw DPS?
    I have no clue as to who Joker is and don't ever recall being in a system called Oulley. But as we all know, ad hom retorts are a sure fire winner when arguing game mechanics. Amirite?

    I think you should bring your own protection and punishment. You find that boring? Then that is your problem, not the gate guns. You are after breaking the one area that fights are certain to happen in low, because you're bored and wish for more assistance.

    TL:DR. No thanks.

    Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

    Seranova Farreach
    Biomass Negative
    #14 - 2014-02-08 18:20:51 UTC
    Mag's wrote:
    Why?

    because then pirates cant camp on a gate 24/7 like you and yours ;p

    [u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]

    Mag's
    Azn Empire
    #15 - 2014-02-08 18:22:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
    Seranova Farreach wrote:
    Mag's wrote:
    Why?

    because then pirates cant camp on a gate 24/7 like you and yours ;p
    No one camps 24/7 and even if they did, so what?
    They are few and far between and there are plenty of options currently available, to either clear or pass them.

    Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

    ShahFluffers
    Ice Fire Warriors
    Infinite Pew
    #16 - 2014-02-08 19:21:33 UTC
    Mag's wrote:
    Seranova Farreach wrote:
    Mag's wrote:
    Why?

    because then pirates cant camp on a gate 24/7 like you and yours ;p
    No one camps 24/7 and even if they did, so what?
    They are few and far between and there are plenty of options currently available, to either clear or pass them.

    This. Gatecamps on high-sec to low-sec gates are most common when you take the "shortest route" into low-sec (or through it). If you take a "back-end" route you will find that there are few, if any, camps (at the cost of a longer trip).

    Speaking as someone who lives in low-sec, sometimes camps those "shortest route" gates, and routinely hauls Orcas and Freighters worth of stuff into low-sec... the "24/7 gatecamps in low-sec" thing is honestly just a myth.
    Ines Tegator
    Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
    #17 - 2014-02-08 21:51:34 UTC
    ShahFluffers wrote:
    the "24/7 gatecamps in low-sec" thing is honestly just a myth.


    It is now. Several years ago it was true. I remember moving with my corp out to Fountain, and there were roughly 12/23 hour camps in Udianoor (toward highsec) and Defsunun (toward Delve). Occasionally the alliance would get bored and go kick them off the gate.

    So the myth is rooted in history, and has died only because lowsec is so empty. If people moved there, the pirates would follow. Then people will leave, and lowsec will be empty once again. A vicious circle that will only be broken with a major gameplay change.
    Katran Luftschreck
    Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
    #18 - 2014-02-08 21:55:52 UTC
    What if gate guns "powered up" over time after activation?

    Example:

    1st hit: 100 damage
    2nd hit: 150 damage
    3rd hit: 250 damage
    4th hit: 400 damage
    5th hit: 650 damage
    etc etc until, after like five minutes they're hitting hard enough to scare scupercaps.

    So gun tanking is still possible, but you couldn't do it forever.

    http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

    Mag's
    Azn Empire
    #19 - 2014-02-09 00:15:30 UTC
    Katran Luftschreck wrote:
    What if gate guns "powered up" over time after activation?

    Example:

    1st hit: 100 damage
    2nd hit: 150 damage
    3rd hit: 250 damage
    4th hit: 400 damage
    5th hit: 650 damage
    etc etc until, after like five minutes they're hitting hard enough to scare scupercaps.

    So gun tanking is still possible, but you couldn't do it forever.
    This was already suggested, roundly condemned and laughed at. So I have to ask again, why? Why do you think this is even required? What problem does it solve?

    Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

    Swiftstrike1
    Swiftstrike Incorporated
    #20 - 2014-02-09 01:42:01 UTC
    Wow you are really vocal in your opposition to this. I think everyone gets that you don't like it. You can stop repeating yourself now.

    The problem that you are insinuating doesn't exist is this - gate guns haven't changed since their inception, but the ships we fly have. They've changed a lot. Generally speaking, they've become much more powerful.

    You probably want specifics so here goes... Numerous rebalances of everything over the years, Tech 2 modules, gang warfare links, Tech 2 ships (especially tech 2 logistics ships and command ships), Tech 3 cruisers, new Tech 1 logistics, Ancillayr tanking modules, Bastion modules, Micro jump drives, new deployable structures, etc... I've probably missed some stuff.

    Ships and fleets have become a lot harder to kill over the years and gate guns have not changed at all. As a result, they no longer adequately perform the job they were intended to do. That is the problem.

    Now as a result of this problem another problem has evolved. Over the years, lowsec has become increasingly more like nullsec and less like hisec. Yes there are some limitations on modules we can use and structures we can anchor, but the "protection" offered by the NPC empires in lowsec has become increasingly negligible over the years. If that protection was to become slightly beefed up it would shunt lowsec back towards hisec a little bit, where it is supposed to be. It doesn't even need to be increased, just changed enough to encourage people to go and explore the changes by living in lowsec for a while.

    Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.

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