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Plex scammers is it legal?

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PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#21 - 2014-02-08 01:05:58 UTC
Emma Muutaras wrote:
while i personally have never fallen for 1 of these scams

Yeah, sure. That's totally the reason your first and only 2 posts on the eve-o forums are in this thread. Roll
Emma Muutaras wrote:
i get the feeling a lot of people have

Nope. Most anyone that's been playing this game for any amount of time knows not to trust anything in Jita local, most people don't even bother reading it.
Vira'li
A Place in Time and Space
#22 - 2014-02-08 01:33:51 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Emma Muutaras wrote:
while i personally have never fallen for 1 of these scams

Yeah, sure. That's totally the reason your first and only 2 posts on the eve-o forums are in this thread. Roll
Emma Muutaras wrote:
i get the feeling a lot of people have

Nope. Most anyone that's been playing this game for any amount of time knows not to trust anything in Jita local, most people don't even bother reading it.



This! Jita is worse than the chat in other games.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#23 - 2014-02-08 01:52:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Jita makes Mos Eisley look like Paris, in spring.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Clementina
University of Caille
#24 - 2014-02-08 03:30:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Clementina
Some rules for the future.

* If a contract is being advertized in a public chat, it is a scam. Maybe you don't understand how it is a scam, but make no mistake, it is a scam.

* If an item that can be sold on the market is being sold via a contract it probably is a scam. Why would the other guy sell via contract when they can sell with less fuss via the market.

* If anything doesn't match in a contract (The contract says Charon but you see some carbon, or there is a different price in the description then in the contract or there appears to be some mixup in the you will pay vs. you will get) The contract is a scam and the person who made it is a scammer. People writing contracts do not make mistakes, if you see a mistake it is not in your favor.
Jill Chastot
WE FORM BL0B Inc.
Goonswarm Federation
#25 - 2014-02-08 04:07:08 UTC
Vyl Vit wrote:
CCP, however, can't enact a policy that over rules law. If it's illegal to defraud people out of money on the internet, CCP's policy of encouraging it could even be seen as being complicit - accessories before the fact. IF they take action against the defrauded, making it difficult or impossible to find redress, accessory after the fact. I guess being internet gods can go to your head.

Or, maybe Icelandic law doesn't stretch to cover one of their few profitable industries...the EULA isn't a statement of law. It may surrender or acceed to certain claims or rights, but it cannot override LAW, especially criminal statues. Don't cite the EULA. Cite the LAW.


You deserve to lose posting rights for this.

You bought two plex two plex are not equal to or relative to money, they are not reverse redeemable (pun intended)

So hush you silly Internet lawyer wannabe.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=298596&find=unread OATHS wants you. Come to the WH "Safety in eve is the greatest fallacy you will ever encounter. Once you accept this you will truely enjoy this game."
Linna Baresi
#26 - 2014-02-08 04:24:28 UTC
Jandice Ymladris wrote:
The moment you have the PLEX, CCP delivered what you bought. What you do with it afterwards is your responsibility. You can use it for various training stuff on alts, for a character resculp, or just sell it. If you choose to sell it, it's your responsibility to get a good pirce for it.
It's not CCP's job to guide you to the best price offerings for your item.

I fail to see how CCP can be blamed for you not taking responsibility.


Legally, it's a bit more complicated than that I think.

The fact that PLEX are sold for real cash and are sold in game for isk, means there is a cash/isk conversion rate - even if the traffic only goes one way - and consequently that the virtual objects in EVE have real life cash value for their owners. Which means that under existing legal interpretations and jurisprudence, someone going to court over losing such items to in game scams might win the case. And in case of such a win, the company might get claims because of allowing and even promoting scamming, especially if minors were involved.

The fact that the company is seated in another country would almost certainly be declared non-relevant, as products have to conform to the laws of the countries in which they are sold (e.g. Microsoft vs EU).

And no, EULAs don't mean a thing in court. Apart from the fact they're full of hedging clauses (because some stuff simply isn't legal in every country, for starters), the click-through nature of Eula's means many courts throw them right out as null and void.







Member of since 2003 fated.europefreeforum.com
eFart
kiddos corect flight
#27 - 2014-02-08 04:30:10 UTC
plex is cpp borowing monney from players without paying interest but its becoming increasingly difficult for them because plexmarket is getting more saturated
Major 'Revolver' Ocelot
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#28 - 2014-02-08 05:00:05 UTC
If people took the time to read the terms of the trade carefully then there would be no scams of this sort.

I have no sympathy for the impatient and/or illiterate.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#29 - 2014-02-08 05:11:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Linna Baresi wrote:
Jandice Ymladris wrote:
The moment you have the PLEX, CCP delivered what you bought. What you do with it afterwards is your responsibility. You can use it for various training stuff on alts, for a character resculp, or just sell it. If you choose to sell it, it's your responsibility to get a good pirce for it.
It's not CCP's job to guide you to the best price offerings for your item.

I fail to see how CCP can be blamed for you not taking responsibility.

Legally, it's a bit more complicated than that I think.

The fact that PLEX are sold for real cash and are sold in game for isk, means there is a cash/isk conversion rate - even if the traffic only goes one way - and consequently that the virtual objects in EVE have real life cash value for their owners.
…that owner being CCP, since you don't own anything in the game. Incidentally, this is why there is no conversion rate: because you don't own anything that can be legally sold. You could try to sell CCP's data, but then you're selling something you don't own, which is generally considered A Bad Idea.

So it's not really that complicated. Once your PLEX is in your hangar or redeeming system (depending on method), the delivery is complete and you aren't owed anything else. The service you paid for is rendered in full. What you do with your CCP's in-game item is up to you from that point on — no different than if you obtained a pack of ammo or a ship or any other in-game item.
Sadayiel
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#30 - 2014-02-08 05:18:46 UTC
Clementina wrote:
Some rules for the future.

* If a contract is being advertized in a public chat, it is a scam. Maybe you don't understand how it is a scam, but make no mistake, it is a scam.

* If an item that can be sold on the market is being sold via a contract it probably is a scam. Why would the other guy sell via contract when they can sell with less fuss via the market.

* If anything doesn't match in a contract (The contract says Charon but you see some carbon, or there is a different price in the description then in the contract or there appears to be some mixup in the you will pay vs. you will get) The contract is a scam and the person who made it is a scammer. People writing contracts do not make mistakes, if you see a mistake it is not in your favor.


point1: some ppl may promote their contracts tru local to make it more visible (legit ones i mean) so they can be picked faster

point 2: Some people like to use contracts to avoid the 0.01 undercut war, or just auctioning it to sell it faster without watching market.

point 3: 100% accurate altought some ppl make mistakes against them (took advantage of them before)
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#31 - 2014-02-08 06:14:56 UTC
eFart wrote:
plex is cpp borowing monney from players without paying interest but its becoming increasingly difficult for them because plexmarket is getting more saturated


Not anywhere near as saturated as I'd like. I just re-upped five of my accts and not one of the PLEXes I bought was less than 625m. Seems to be quite the sellers market, in my opinion. And a sellers market implies shortage, not saturation.

Mr Epeen Cool
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2014-02-08 08:01:41 UTC
Eve lesson 1: local chat has no useful information in it
Esha Ditrix
#33 - 2014-02-08 10:33:35 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
not one of the PLEXes I bought was less than 625m. Seems to be quite the sellers market, in my opinion. And a sellers market implies shortage, not saturation.

how dare you bring logic into this argument Shocked

Its not an exploit, if the game lets you do it...
Yarda Black
The Black Redemption
#34 - 2014-02-08 10:43:48 UTC
GTC: Real money transaction - scamming not allowed
PLEX: Virtual ingame item - scamming allowed

If you need more understanding of this; try coming up with different types of scams for these 2.
Schminto
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#35 - 2014-02-08 11:44:33 UTC
Batelle wrote:
This is legit, because PLEX != Money.

Back before plex, when people traded GTCs through the forums, scamming was prohibited. The major reason was because CCP's involvement in guaranteeing these transfers were the only way for them to work.

Now that plex trading requires no out-of-game trust or information exchange, CCP doesn't need to treat it differently than any other scam. Although I do think they still police out-of-game GTC transfers.

As for in-game scams being fraud, you paid money for something, you got that thing from CCP, and then you lost that thing while playing the game. Weather you were scammed or your ibis got blown up or you decided to give them away, its irrelevant.

Emma Muutaras wrote:

lets face it if i brought 6 plex off ccp and cancelled the direct debt before they took the payment im quite sure i would find my account banned.


This would be fraud, it costs CCP money, and they would come after you.


So it's only fraud if it costs CCP money..

Must be nice to be at the top of the food chain.
Lugalbandak
Doomheim
#36 - 2014-02-08 12:33:14 UTC
Vyl Vit wrote:
CCP, however, can't enact a policy that over rules law. If it's illegal to defraud people out of money on the internet, CCP's policy of encouraging it could even be seen as being complicit - accessories before the fact. IF they take action against the defrauded, making it difficult or impossible to find redress, accessory after the fact. I guess being internet gods can go to your head.

Or, maybe Icelandic law doesn't stretch to cover one of their few profitable industries...the EULA isn't a statement of law. It may surrender or acceed to certain claims or rights, but it cannot override LAW, especially criminal statues. Don't cite the EULA. Cite the LAW.


I AM THE LAW!

The police horse is the only animal in the world that haz his male genitals on his back
Linna Baresi
#37 - 2014-02-08 13:05:43 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Linna Baresi wrote:
Jandice Ymladris wrote:
The moment you have the PLEX, CCP delivered what you bought. What you do with it afterwards is your responsibility. You can use it for various training stuff on alts, for a character resculp, or just sell it. If you choose to sell it, it's your responsibility to get a good pirce for it.
It's not CCP's job to guide you to the best price offerings for your item.

I fail to see how CCP can be blamed for you not taking responsibility.

Legally, it's a bit more complicated than that I think.

The fact that PLEX are sold for real cash and are sold in game for isk, means there is a cash/isk conversion rate - even if the traffic only goes one way - and consequently that the virtual objects in EVE have real life cash value for their owners.
…that owner being CCP, since you don't own anything in the game. Incidentally, this is why there is no conversion rate: because you don't own anything that can be legally sold. You could try to sell CCP's data, but then you're selling something you don't own, which is generally considered A Bad Idea.

So it's not really that complicated. Once your PLEX is in your hangar or redeeming system (depending on method), the delivery is complete and you aren't owed anything else. The service you paid for is rendered in full. What you do with your CCP's in-game item is up to you from that point on — no different than if you obtained a pack of ammo or a ship or any other in-game item.


I can quote you the relevant jurisprudence, if you like, but the stuff I'm most familiar with is all in Dutch (e.g. Runescape verdict), so I'm not sure it would be any use here. The court's answer - all the way to the highest court - was that yes, virtual items represent real value to their owners (owners very emphatically being the players, not the company providing the virtual environment) and hence fall under the definition of "goods" in the law, meaning all laws concerning misappropriating such goods apply. Since more and more 'goods' only exist virtually, including e.g. mobile telephone credits, the topic is taken extremely seriously by both lawgivers, judges and lawyers. And in some countries, like South Korea, bloodthirsty laws are in place to specifically cover virtual environments like games.

Member of since 2003 fated.europefreeforum.com
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#38 - 2014-02-08 13:12:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Linna Baresi wrote:
I can quote you the relevant jurisprudence, if you like, but the stuff I'm most familiar with is all in Dutch (e.g. Runescape verdict), so I'm not sure it would be any use here. The court's answer - all the way to the highest court - was that yes, virtual items represent real value to their owners (owners very emphatically being the players, not the company providing the virtual environment) and hence fall under the definition of "goods" in the law, meaning all laws concerning misappropriating such goods apply. Since more and more 'goods' only exist virtually, including e.g. mobile telephone credits, the topic is taken extremely seriously by both lawgivers, judges and lawyers. And in some countries, like South Korea, bloodthirsty laws are in place to specifically cover virtual environments like games.

The problem they'll have in applying it is that it's lost in the normal course of gameplay as opposed to all the cases that have been decided where it has been losses due to out-of-game influence. Unless they want to outlaw the loss of items in games — that is, outlaw persistent worlds — it simply does not apply.

Again, it's no different than having your blingchariel blown up.

…and that's before we even get into the total loss that is an account ban, which will be invoked with head-spinning rapidity should anyone try to claim they own CCP's data.
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2014-02-08 14:58:08 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Reckless Ourtomineng wrote:
Unsuccessful At Everything


blocked /and / or hidden messages stop poasting pls nobody wants to see ur face



Big smile You say that you have me blocked... but I think we all know better.

You love me! You really, really love me!



*plays the stalker anthem*

"every breath you take
every move you make
I'll be watching you"

Most certainly an intersect between love and obsession.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Your Dad Naked
Doomheim
#40 - 2014-02-08 17:36:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Your Dad Naked
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Emma Muutaras wrote:
while i personally have never fallen for 1 of these scams

Yeah, sure. That's totally the reason your first and only 2 posts on the eve-o forums are in this thread. Roll
Emma Muutaras wrote:
i get the feeling a lot of people have

Nope. Most anyone that's been playing this game for any amount of time knows not to trust anything in Jita local, most people don't even bother reading it.


1) Assuming just like the first guy. I've made a thread about ganking before, two in fact. Made a fresh forum alt for one. Never been ganked.

2) A lot of people fall for those scams if looking at raw numbers. Percentage wise not so high though.