Ships & Modules

Not gonna happen, because they were silly.

Agtain, ship balance cannot be discussed on the Lower SP level. Because then you need to have infinite different balance discussions for ech SP level. The only level worth discussing is FULLY TRAINED for the ship.

And if now I would make a new character, the only reason to spend SP on BC woudl be to get a Talos for POCO fast bashing (in high sec).

If there is something makes me sad is when I see a hurricane. That thing was nerfed to pathetic level.

It has nothing to do with "**** those people" and everything to do with using a stable baseline for comparison. Eventually those people with less skill points will become people with more.

As to the BCs themselves, the situation os different for each. The 2 drone ships seem to be in usex the prophecy especially is doing much better. The ferrox is also seeing some use as a fleet doctrine now. Cyclone and harbinger Im unsure of.

Drake needs a fix to HML, might need a small HP nerf to compensate. Hurricane needs agility and speed back; its slots, fittings etc are fine.

The warp speed changes for all BBs and BCs went too far, too. BCs should get cruiser level warp acceleration; they can keep the 2.5 tp speed. BB needs current BC acceleration and a small(10%) increase to warp speed. Warp movent with all larger subcaps is just too much of a time sink now.

no.. you are ASSUMING you know what we are thinking. I do not CARE at ALL for what BC were.

I am smart enough and have a clear analytic mind capable of deducting if a ship has or not a role in current metagame. Do not impose your own limitation while observing a situation upon others.

We DO NOT CARE how the BC were, we care that they are BAD now.

In a nutshell, solo BCs suck because none of them are fast enough to catch any kiting cruisers nor do they have the projection to force off kiting cruisers. If they are kite fit and have the projection to force off/kill other kiters, they're not fast enough to kite themselves and get caught and die.

What this boils down to is a low engagement profile which means you need to be super choosy about your fights. However, due to their slow warp speed/acceleration and poor agility, they are extremely easy to catch and be forced into fights they can't take. This is why soloing in a BC is a bad idea.

In a gang concept, BCs are also bad and are out classed in almost every way by navy cruisers that cost the same when fully fit. Naugorors have only slightly less dps than a harb, but can have better tanks and double medium neuts as well as going twice the speed and having less than half the sig radius. Canes are in the same position as the harb when compared with the SFI. Both of the navy cruisers fully fit are in the 90 million price range while BCs are in the 70 - 80 mill price range so it cannot be argued BCs are more cost effective as they have only slightly less cost for significantly worse performance.

/thread

Lets have a look at destroyers.

They're in between frigates and cruisers but aren't really a direct upgrade from frigates. They have their uses and niches but that's mostly about PVE and some very specific PVP use. They're obviously "pre nerfed" to avoid them becoming hilariously overpowering and devouring other ship classes. This means that they're side grades on purpose, you could choose to never fly a destroyer in your EVE career and do just fine and everyone realises that Faction or T2 frigates are much better choices for most PVP stuff especially when we're talking about "advanced PVPers".

Somehow everyone is OK with this, somehow you don't see whines on the forums about how destroyers are "useless in the grand scheme". Want to know why? Because "it's always been like that".


Now look at BC.

Previously they were the obvious goal to aim for, being OP as hell raping T1 cruisers without any difficulty and if your precious T2 cruiser would get caught be one you'd probably die and If used right they could take on BS as well. They were SO good they effectively made cruiser hulls an endangered species, you'd see solo BC, small BC gangs and whole fcking swarms of them. Why on earth would you fly a Rupture if you could fly a Cane? An in-between ship like that would make any balancing entirely impossible because it has WAY too much overlap. That has been the problem for years.

CCP recently decided that, just like destroyers, BC should become side grades. Not direct upgrade but a choice for some niche use which, if you wanted to, could be completely avoided going straight into BS if you'd upgrade from cruisers. And while one might not like that decision it does make sense, we're just not used to the idea.

Destroyers and BC aren't the same obviously, they don't have the same pros and cons so you can not make a direct comparison. But if you squint your eyes a little bit you can sorta see how ABC are effectively kinda like destroyers in the way that they are "high dps, low EHP gun boats". They're obviously different with different uses and issues but on the whole it makes sense. They have their niche, they have their uses and they have their problems.

That leaves CBC and because CCP decided they needed to stop being so obvious and useful in "aggressive pvp" (for lack of a better description) they needed to come up with a nerf. So, what options did CCP have for that?

First thing people would think about is to nerf dps but that would just be silly because that would make the ship useless for ALL uses and while individual BC got boosted/nerfed a bit on the whole nothing really happened. Ok, how about EHP then? Well, apart from some minor adjustments (mostly to the Drake which was entirely silly to begin with and some 4% resists changes) they didn't really touch that either, they adapted it a bit but on the whole they didn't bother much, not enough to alter the balance issues.


So, no dps nerf, no real EHP nerf. How is CCP going to nerf the CBC "aggressive pvp" role then, what other options do they have?

I KNOW, HOW ABOUT NERFING THEIR MOBILITY! That way the ship on its own is pretty much the same as it was before for many things like PVE and basic PVP but "advanced PVPers" would stop using it and decide to use (faction/T2) cruisers or ABC/BS. JUST like how these folks simply ignore destroyers.

CBC is no more a pvp powerhouse, on purpose, because it's WAY too good if you let it "roam freely". It is now, just like a destroyer, mostly a PVE ship that in specific pvp scenarios has a use albeit it (obviously) different ones. It's a design choice but why are people whining about it then? Because "it's never been like that".

And if you think ahead a bit and accept that OGB is going the way of the dodo you then realise that CBC will be a poor man's link ship, and since links shouldn't be as obvious and over abundant as they are atm you then realise that stating "well, if you want to bring links you'll have to make sacrifices" makes good sense, so they put it on a ship that can't really keep up with fast moving frigs and cruisers, on purpose.


Why is this so difficult to comprehend?

Wonder how much battlecruisers would profit -right now- from a role bonus to projection range similiar to destryoers-frigates.
Right now, the only really annoying BCs are Harbingers for their scorchrange and arguably the Gnosis for it's myriad of slots.

A rage bonus would probably fit quite well with their current limitations tbh. It would make then far more of a defense asset being able to scare of the odd kitey cruiser etc while still being a short range brawling type.

It would still have the problem of being to slow to effectively kite as they would be caught easily etc. But would a range bonus encroach upon the ABC jobs? vOv

How about give on of the Combat BC a small range bonus (say 2.5%/lvl for a total of 12.5%) and one a tank or cap bonus so it can stick around longer. Make then a cruiser concept marauder thingy. Tankiey as all **** with decent range. admittedly in todays meta still very limited but gives them 'something'

Other than that I don't really care too much as I never fly them

Then dont give a 50% ragne bonus. Give 25% range bonus to Harbinger and ferox . 25% flgith time to drake and cyclone 15% range 30% falloff to the brutix and cane a 20% drone speed bonus to myrmidon and prophecy.