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Why freighter bumping in High Sec is an exploit

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Deadonstick Puppyseeker
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#101 - 2014-02-07 15:19:12 UTC
Unfortunately due to CCP's official standing one cannot claim this is an exploit. However, being able to render a giant ship, 100x more expensive than your own totally useless without any repercussions is overpowered at best.

Now ofcourse there's the usual crowd who instantly goes on the personal offense that freighter pilots are people who wish their hands to be held and have permanent CONCORD escorts, but just ignore those people. Yeah I do think SOMETHING should be done about high sec bumping of freighters, there's no way to counter it and something without a counter is pretty much the definition of overpowered and should be rebalanced.

Considering it an exploit is however not the way to go, fixing it somehow by, say, adding strafing thrusters to ships that activate when bumped however might be a better idea, but by no means perfect (unstoppable Titans anyone?)

Despite what you may have heard there's only one rule of EVE:

Never stop learning and realise there's always a lot more to be learned. To this end, seek wisdom in everything.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#102 - 2014-02-07 15:21:27 UTC
isnt endless bumping of freighters not considered as exploit anyways?
I remember it being that way.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#103 - 2014-02-07 15:48:15 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Did anyone stop and consider that the intended behavior behind bumping wasn't the cruiser shoving the freighter thousands of Meters around, but was the freighter Emergency navigating to avoid a collision?



At several times the speed that the freighter is able to move naturally?

Ummm. Nope.

Overhaul Dscan!
Deadonstick Puppyseeker
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#104 - 2014-02-07 16:09:20 UTC
Ines Tegator wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Did anyone stop and consider that the intended behavior behind bumping wasn't the cruiser shoving the freighter thousands of Meters around, but was the freighter Emergency navigating to avoid a collision?



At several times the speed that the freighter is able to move naturally?

Ummm. Nope.


When in danger, a freighter rapidly sheds its skin, temporarily becoming only a quarter of their normal mass, then, without using any resources or taking any time, they instantly regrow their normal, heavy skin. Thus completing the cycle.

(ok yeah, having to explain that **** is quite hard to do)

Despite what you may have heard there's only one rule of EVE:

Never stop learning and realise there's always a lot more to be learned. To this end, seek wisdom in everything.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#105 - 2014-02-07 17:21:25 UTC
For those grasping at RL physics, please remember Eve takes place in water dynamics.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#106 - 2014-02-07 17:29:30 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Morwennon wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
And when a stabber, packing much, much more kinetic energy than a freighter, slams into it, what should happen?

A glass thrown at a brick wall has much more kinetic energy than the wall.

What happens to the glass when it hits the wall? What happens to the wall?



But a stabber isn't glass. It's basically a spear, made of the same stuff as the freighter.


And since we're in zero gravity here, a brick fired out of a mass driver at a brick wall is going to **** that wall up. You ever hear about the rods from god weapon theory?


To make this simple, imagine a rock hurtling towards an asteroid or comet, when they collide the larger body will be affected by the kinetic energy of the smaller object (mass * speed (2)* 0.5). The larger bodies momentum is calculated by (mass*velocity).

Since we are talking amount such an enormous mass here in comparison to the speed of the smaller object the speed is largely irrelevant given the relatively low speeds involved. So what happens is the small rock is destroyed instantly, and the larger object is very slightly affected although not in such a way that it changes direction completely as in bumping.


Take this into a typical eve situation.

So lets take a cruiser, mass = 10,000,000.00

Then lets take a freighter, mass = 1,000,000,000.00

The freighter has 100 x more mass than a cruiser.


Now take a look at the kinetic energy of a cruiser travelling at 1000 m/s

10,000,000 kg * 1000(2) * 0.5 = 50,000,000,000

Now the kinetic energy of the freighter travelling at 100 m/s

1,000,000,000 kg * 100(2) * 0.5 = 500,000,000,000

Even when the cruiser is travelling at 10* the speed of the freighter it still has 10* less kinetic energy.


Again if you compare the momentum of each ship;

The momentum of the freighter at 100 m/s is;

1,000,000,000 kg * 100 = 100,000,000,000

The momentum of the cruiser at 1000 m/s is;

10,000,000 kg * 1000 = 10,000,000,000

Again, the cruiser's momentum is 10* less than the freighters momentum.


Therefore by all measures the cruiser would simply bounce off the freighter or destroy itself in the process.



Lets run those again with a stabber, fit with a 1600mm plate and a battleship MWD. Which is what I was actually talking about here. (It fits with three RCU IIs and three T1 ACRs)

Mass of 63,462,500, travelling at a speed of 5718m/s.

That comes out as:

63 462 500 kg * 5718(2) * 0.5

=

1,049,730,667,425,000

Which, I'm sure we can agree, is a very large number. Much, much larger than the kinetic energy of a freighter. And I believe you get even more out of a stabber fleet issue. Should this still do nothing, when we're talking several orders of magnitude?


(And before you ask, the mass comes from:
Stabber: 11,400,000
1600mm steel plate: 2,062,500
MWD: 50,000,000)
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2014-02-07 18:33:30 UTC
Ines Tegator wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Did anyone stop and consider that the intended behavior behind bumping wasn't the cruiser shoving the freighter thousands of Meters around, but was the freighter Emergency navigating to avoid a collision?



At several times the speed that the freighter is able to move naturally?

Ummm. Nope.



Like I said, over-reacted a bit. Makes fare more sense than all the calculator 'my math is better than your math' crap going on.


But regardless, this thread isn't about how bumping is done, it's about whether it's an exploit or not, so put the calculator away or PM whoever it is you wanna argue with over it.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Kasife Vynneve
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2014-02-07 19:05:13 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
I don't care about physics lessons. If a freighter can't be bumped, how are people going to successfully gank them in high sec?


Same way most things are ~ large numbers of high alpha ships in low response systems.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#109 - 2014-02-07 19:48:41 UTC
So instead of 20 Catalysts for a gank, it will take 20 Tornadoes, with pilots who all have to keep their sec status above -4.5. Sounds like quite a buff for haulers.

Oh god.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2014-02-07 20:06:56 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
So instead of 20 Catalysts for a gank, it will take 20 Tornadoes, with pilots who all have to keep their sec status above -4.5. Sounds like quite a buff for haulers.



You keep assuming they have to stay above -4.5.

You don't acknowledge kill rights, and assume they are just gonna be chillin' in space the whole time waiting on some poor freighter.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#111 - 2014-02-07 20:17:38 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
So instead of 20 Catalysts for a gank, it will take 20 Tornadoes, with pilots who all have to keep their sec status above -4.5. Sounds like quite a buff for haulers.


So it will take 1b of assets in order to gank 1b of assets (not counting cargo)?

Sounds fair to me.

Overhaul Dscan!
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#112 - 2014-02-07 20:19:21 UTC
Has anyone mentioned yet, don't autopilot?

Between that and webs, your problem is just about solved.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#113 - 2014-02-07 20:20:19 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Has anyone mentioned yet, don't autopilot?

Between that and webs, your problem is just about solved.



All the freighter pilots swear webbing doesn't work. Must be true.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#114 - 2014-02-07 20:25:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldiiee
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Has anyone mentioned yet, don't autopilot?

Between that and webs, your problem is just about solved.

Not true, if they want to kill you they will. The numbers are easy enough to figure out 10k Damage per aggressor in a .5 system bump the freighter/Orca till all 10 or 15 aggressors are on grid and at optimal, get you loot man in place and fire. Nothing can stop them once they decide to pick you as a target. So we are back to don't be a target, fly with less value than the cost of the 10 to 15 ships. Which means pretty much don't fly a freighter, or only carry half load of Tritanuim in it, and when you can't make enough to make it worth your trouble quit doing that and become a High Sec ganker, or go join a Nul blob and become a worker Bee.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#115 - 2014-02-07 20:28:52 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Has anyone mentioned yet, don't autopilot?

Between that and webs, your problem is just about solved.



All the freighter pilots swear webbing doesn't work. Must be true.

If they bump you before you get the web on and reach 23m/s (2 to 4 seconds depending on your skills) you are dead. And really I know hundreds of guys that move billion of ISK daily, none of them autopilot.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#116 - 2014-02-07 20:37:11 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Has anyone mentioned yet, don't autopilot?

Between that and webs, your problem is just about solved.

Not true, if they want to kill you they will. The numbers are easy enough to figure out 10k Damage per aggressor in a .5 system bump the freighter/Orca till all 10 or 15 aggressors are on grid and at optimal, get you loot man in place and fire. Nothing can stop them once they decide to pick you as a target. So we are back to don't be a target, fly with less value than the cost of the 10 to 15 ships. Which means pretty much don't fly a freighter, or only carry half load of Tritanuim in it, and when you can't make enough to make it worth your trouble quit doing that and become a High Sec ganker, or go join a Nul blob and become a worker Bee.


So... "Boo hoo, I can't fill my cargohold to the brim with phat loot!"?

As the people who are killing you keep trying to tell you, there are plenty of ways to get out of it. You lot just don't want to listen.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#117 - 2014-02-07 20:49:40 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
So... "Boo hoo, I can't fill my cargohold to the brim with phat loot!"?

Tritanium? You think trit is 'Phat Loot' More clueless than your posts aren't you?

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
As the people who are killing you keep trying to tell you, there are plenty of ways to get out of it. You lot just don't want to listen.

If you are bumped you are dead, best plan is to start jettisoning cargo before they shoot. All other plans are just to kill time before the killmail arrives.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#118 - 2014-02-07 20:54:31 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:

If you are bumped you are dead, best plan is to start jettisoning cargo before they shoot. All other plans are just to kill time before the killmail arrives.


I'm not sure why you keep repeating this falsehood...

Wait, no, I understand why. Because in your mind, you're solo. Which is the problem in the first place. You think you should be immune to the concerted actions of numerous people just because your ship costs more than their ships, and because you're carrying too much.

But then, I did already mention flying with escorts, didn't I?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#119 - 2014-02-07 20:57:23 UTC
Here how's this idea;
CCP please add a new freight container, password protected, 750k EHP, Size 25k m3, Capacity 20k m3 (So you lose 20% capacity). And make it unscannable and anchorable from a freighter/Orca, with only a distance from last needed for next launch, every 5km should still work. So once the bumping starts the freighter pilot can start jettisoning his load, if the aggressors don't get on grid in time they will only have an empty hull to shoot and the freighter pilot can go buy another ship to pick his stuff up with.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#120 - 2014-02-07 21:00:03 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:

If you are bumped you are dead, best plan is to start jettisoning cargo before they shoot. All other plans are just to kill time before the killmail arrives.


I'm not sure why you keep repeating this falsehood...

Wait, no, I understand why. Because in your mind, you're solo. Which is the problem in the first place. You think you should be immune to the concerted actions of numerous people just because your ship costs more than their ships, and because you're carrying too much.

But then, I did already mention flying with escorts, didn't I?

I was flying escort with two pilots, last week. web didn't work in time, reps didn't save it, and loot was scooped by the gankers while they bumped the support ships. So no I am not talking out my ass, but you certainly are.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.