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Why freighter bumping in High Sec is an exploit

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Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#81 - 2014-02-06 23:17:04 UTC
Daoden wrote:
Petrified wrote:
As much as it pains me to say it, and being someone who has freighter pilots in High Sec: this is not an exploit.

That said, the real problem is why such a large kinetic energy transfer from a fast moving small object impacting a larger object causes no damage could address the issue easily. Reducing the effectiveness of bumping (by taking into account the aether that exists in the eve universe - why you come to a stop if you turn your engines off and why you do not accelerate to C) and adding a kinetic threshold which if broken causes damage to both ships and flags the aggressor - the faster moving ship impacting the slower, as suspect.

I don't really think something like this would make it into EVE Online, but it would be interesting way to resolve high sec bumping with impunity overall. Twisted


Bumping someone causing suspect will never happen. I would make people in Jita bump me on accident so I could kill them and I doubt I'm the only one that would.


Edit: mistyped


Neither do I think it would happen, but note I said threshold, which means undocking would not meet such criteria anyways.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

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Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#82 - 2014-02-06 23:29:02 UTC
The bumper has:

1. No investment required (noob ship)
2. No risk accrued (noob ship)

Actually, I was going to make a longer list, but I think I can stop there. That pretty much defines 'exploit' in those two points.

The fix is to change the impact formula so that mass effects the collision more accurately. Also, remove Prop Mod added mass from the equation.

Overhaul Dscan!
Miss Everest
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#83 - 2014-02-06 23:33:37 UTC
"Bumping" is simply a Exploit sanctioned by CCP.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#84 - 2014-02-06 23:48:27 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Assuming that the consensus is that bumping in general is a bad mechanic and makes little logical sense, one solution to the problem would be to force ships to divert their path when heading directly into another ship. So for instance if a frigate was heading full speed towards a freighter, the autopilot would assume there is something wrong with the pilot and automatically change course temporarily to avoid the freighter. The would take some pretty clever coding by CCP and is the best solution to resolve the issue of bumping.

The other alternative would be to allow ships to collide causing damage to one another which would be easily exploitable.

The last solution would be to suppose that each ship is surrounded by a magnetic field (shield) and when these two fields collide they repel each other based upon the mass of each ship. For instance if a frigate charges into a freighter, then the frigate should bounce off and leave the freighter virtually untouched. Due to a Freighters mass, no other ship beside a Capital or another freighter (which cannot travel at high enough speeds to bump) would be able to significantly disrupt a freighters direction of travel.

Any of these solutions would be better than the current mechanics in my opinion.



And when a stabber, packing much, much more kinetic energy than a freighter, slams into it, what should happen?
Morwennon
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#85 - 2014-02-07 00:43:15 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
And when a stabber, packing much, much more kinetic energy than a freighter, slams into it, what should happen?

A glass thrown at a brick wall has much more kinetic energy than the wall.

What happens to the glass when it hits the wall? What happens to the wall?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#86 - 2014-02-07 01:01:34 UTC
Morwennon wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
And when a stabber, packing much, much more kinetic energy than a freighter, slams into it, what should happen?

A glass thrown at a brick wall has much more kinetic energy than the wall.

What happens to the glass when it hits the wall? What happens to the wall?


an unanchored wall in space? why it moves.....

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#87 - 2014-02-07 02:07:28 UTC
Morwennon wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
And when a stabber, packing much, much more kinetic energy than a freighter, slams into it, what should happen?

A glass thrown at a brick wall has much more kinetic energy than the wall.

What happens to the glass when it hits the wall? What happens to the wall?


The combined energy of the two bodies (Wall + Glass * Velocity of Glass) is redirected in equal portions into each body. The Glass, having much lower mass, is destroyed by it's portion of the energy. The Wall, being very large and having much higher mass, harmlessly absorbs it's portion energy.

IOW, the Stabber should crumple like an accordion and the freighter should take a small amount of collision damage- probably not even breaking shields. Since we generally don't want collisions to do damage (Can O Worms™), in game we should just see the Stabber bounce off.

Overhaul Dscan!
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2014-02-07 04:01:51 UTC
Morwennon wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
And when a stabber, packing much, much more kinetic energy than a freighter, slams into it, what should happen?

A glass thrown at a brick wall has much more kinetic energy than the wall.

What happens to the glass when it hits the wall? What happens to the wall?



A glass made of a much more fragile construction to begin with. Argument invalid.


Now... Crow Bar vs a Car door.....

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Whittorical Quandary
Amarrian Infinity
#89 - 2014-02-07 05:33:47 UTC
This makes me want to see two alliances of corp ships in a high sec bump war.

It'd be like the eve equivalent of "katamari"; A giant ever growing ball of ships bumping together and sticking onto large cargo ships.

But yeah, it really doesn't fit my view of a science fiction spaceship battle. Imagine if this happened on an episode of "Battlestar Galactica" or "Star Trek"...

"The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you never know if they are genuine."

— Abraham Lincoln
Hunter Arngrahm
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#90 - 2014-02-07 06:13:29 UTC
To be perfectly fair, CCP has made statements on harassing Miners through repeated bumping, the same argument could be made for freighters, which are even more defenseless against bumps. There is a precedent in place for this argument.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#91 - 2014-02-07 06:23:06 UTC
Morwennon wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
And when a stabber, packing much, much more kinetic energy than a freighter, slams into it, what should happen?

A glass thrown at a brick wall has much more kinetic energy than the wall.

What happens to the glass when it hits the wall? What happens to the wall?



But a stabber isn't glass. It's basically a spear, made of the same stuff as the freighter.


And since we're in zero gravity here, a brick fired out of a mass driver at a brick wall is going to **** that wall up. You ever hear about the rods from god weapon theory?
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#92 - 2014-02-07 06:43:40 UTC
I don't care about physics lessons. If a freighter can't be bumped, how are people going to successfully gank them in high sec?

Oh god.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2014-02-07 06:46:01 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
I don't care about physics lessons. If a freighter can't be bumped, how are people going to successfully gank them in high sec?



Are... you being serious?


Please tell me you're trolling.


Please.

Please.


Please!

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#94 - 2014-02-07 07:54:15 UTC
No, it was a question.

Oh god.
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#95 - 2014-02-07 08:25:43 UTC
Bumping is ok, (rather silly but ok from gameplay perspectiv) but endless bumping is just a broken side effect!

Meet the Mario Kart 8 - Capsuleer Club Cup
Mag's
Azn Empire
#96 - 2014-02-07 08:55:09 UTC
Mazzara wrote:
Gankers are so funny, they use any means necessary to justify them using what is pretty clearly an exploit, but the second someone makes a post about how to fix it suddenly the poster is breaking the game.

if a ganker wants to keep someone from flying away they should have to use the modules that everyone else has to and risk getting concorded like everyone else.
I find it pretty funny that people still claim it's an exploit, when CCP have already stated it is not. Therefore the OP is looking to break the game.

If you want to stop people bumping you, then use the tools already provided like everyone else.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Nag'o
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#97 - 2014-02-07 11:12:16 UTC
Cassie Helio wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


Its exactly how works in real life. Police cannot prevent you from being hit by a guy with a baseball bat in the street. But the fact
that the guy will be arrested if he does so is what makes unlikely that he will do it.

Why works better in real life? Because the punishment is MUCH more severe and is not forgotten 15 minutes later.


It's funny you said this because I was thinking about it earlier. Actually in real life if you were shoving someone around but not actually causing them harm, you would be suspicious. Police would not be able to stop anyone from hitting you with a baseball bat (the gank squad) but if someone was shoving you around for 30 minutes first (the bumper) police would pay attention to that.


Actually in RL if someone is shoving you around you can just punch him in the face without any legal consequences. It's self defense.

Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#98 - 2014-02-07 12:24:41 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Morwennon wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
And when a stabber, packing much, much more kinetic energy than a freighter, slams into it, what should happen?

A glass thrown at a brick wall has much more kinetic energy than the wall.

What happens to the glass when it hits the wall? What happens to the wall?



But a stabber isn't glass. It's basically a spear, made of the same stuff as the freighter.


And since we're in zero gravity here, a brick fired out of a mass driver at a brick wall is going to **** that wall up. You ever hear about the rods from god weapon theory?


To make this simple, imagine a rock hurtling towards an asteroid or comet, when they collide the larger body will be affected by the kinetic energy of the smaller object (mass * speed (2)* 0.5). The larger bodies momentum is calculated by (mass*velocity).

Since we are talking amount such an enormous mass here in comparison to the speed of the smaller object the speed is largely irrelevant given the relatively low speeds involved. So what happens is the small rock is destroyed instantly, and the larger object is very slightly affected although not in such a way that it changes direction completely as in bumping.


Take this into a typical eve situation.

So lets take a cruiser, mass = 10,000,000.00

Then lets take a freighter, mass = 1,000,000,000.00

The freighter has 100 x more mass than a cruiser.


Now take a look at the kinetic energy of a cruiser travelling at 1000 m/s

10,000,000 kg * 1000(2) * 0.5 = 50,000,000,000

Now the kinetic energy of the freighter travelling at 100 m/s

1,000,000,000 kg * 100(2) * 0.5 = 500,000,000,000

Even when the cruiser is travelling at 10* the speed of the freighter it still has 10* less kinetic energy.


Again if you compare the momentum of each ship;

The momentum of the freighter at 100 m/s is;

1,000,000,000 kg * 100 = 100,000,000,000

The momentum of the cruiser at 1000 m/s is;

10,000,000 kg * 1000 = 10,000,000,000

Again, the cruiser's momentum is 10* less than the freighters momentum.


Therefore by all measures the cruiser would simply bounce off the freighter or destroy itself in the process.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#99 - 2014-02-07 12:53:38 UTC
Bumping: Modern Carebear PvP.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2014-02-07 13:23:16 UTC
Did anyone stop and consider that the intended behavior behind bumping wasn't the cruiser shoving the freighter thousands of Meters around, but was the freighter Emergency navigating to avoid a collision?


Albeit, a bit of an over-reaction, but still?

It would be really really silly for ships to only be able to travel in 1 direction as most Eve models seem to indicate. It makes more sense for them to have at least station keeping thrusters all over the place so they can make minute adjustments, not have to do a car and drive a full circle every time they drift out of their station. And when an object approaches at fast speed, the bump is just the two ships firing those to avoid a collision?


That doesn't change the fact that it's not an exploit and freighters need to learn to play Eve like everyone else, but perhaps it's not all whip out your calculators momentum transfer as seems to be the only accepted reason bumping occurs.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal