These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Rubicon 1.3] Drone Assist change

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
ale rico
Slow Chidlren at Play
SL0W CHILDREN AT PLAY
#621 - 2014-02-07 00:04:28 UTC
So basically what everyone complaining here has admitted to is...

"our members are mentally ******** and can't follow broadcasted targets"
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#622 - 2014-02-07 00:12:04 UTC
ale rico wrote:
So basically what everyone complaining here has admitted to is...

"our members are mentally ******** and can't follow broadcasted targets"

Really? er....no?

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#623 - 2014-02-07 00:12:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Snow Axe
ale rico wrote:
So basically what everyone complaining here has admitted to is...

"our members are mentally ******** and can't follow broadcasted targets"


It's more like "oh no now our members actually have to follow the broadcasts themselves" with a touch of "oh god lock time is a thing now!". Apparently the enemies of the CFC are so goddamned incompetent that these two things are their only chance at success vOv

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Garandras
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#624 - 2014-02-07 00:14:43 UTC
So what i take from this..

Is a few extra people have to do a litle bit more thinking in a large fleet... and to some people it is end of the world >_>

Dont worry guys if you fall into this will ruin the game catagory.. you wont have to be a drone bunny and can keep doing what you were already doing
Miss Everest
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#625 - 2014-02-07 00:17:05 UTC
Am I really one of the few that don't like this?
Luxotor
This Cyno Will Eventually Make Sense
#626 - 2014-02-07 00:17:37 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Zwo Zateki wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
There is no contradiction, simply the fact that the potential harms to incursions, while undesirable, were of considerably lower importance than the decided balance point for drone assist. In the end any negative effect is still negligible, at worse making a second drone bunny, so it really hold no weight against the primary goal.


the fact that there is a negative effect, regardless of negligibility is the exact contradiction.

What makes it infuriating is that they're bowing to nullsec grunts and break highsec playstyle at the same time. Why can't just CCP realise that nullsec is just a vocal minority, irrelevant for the most subscribers?


12,000 trials were started in the week after B-R.

No doubt this was because they all heard Incursions are so awesome and wanted to run them one day.


That's such a great number to hear.

THE NIGHT IS DARK AND FULL OF TERRORS!
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#627 - 2014-02-07 00:21:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Corraidhin Farsaidh
My view is that a pilot should only be able to control as many drones as (s)he has drones + advanced drone interfacing whether they are his own, assisting drones, or a combination of the two. Then adv drone interfacing has a use outside of carrier pilot too. This would also mean that fleets actually have to co-operate and synchronize attacks with skill rather than assisting drones.
Dunmer Orion
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#628 - 2014-02-07 00:24:33 UTC
This is a good move.

-DO
Calligular
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#629 - 2014-02-07 00:34:51 UTC
Janeos wrote:
Kiry Belvar wrote:
CFC is crying, CCP is changing!

Change the Game Name to CFC Online pleace

I'd prefer EverGoon or World of GoonCraft.



Hehe.. GGRRRRR GOONS!!
Peritas Inmortalis
Dis0wned
Brack Regen
#630 - 2014-02-07 00:42:25 UTC
Elise Randolph wrote:
It's not a bad change, but I don't think it addresses any of the /actual/ problems. Carrier blobs will still be incredibly efficient at defending objectives - which is where they are used now. Killing things will certainly be slower, there is no doubt about that, but does it matter if you're not dying and I can still kill you anywhere on grid?

Domis are very strong /not/ because they can focus fire every 4 seconds, but because they have cruiser -level tracking combined with BS-level damage and sniper-level range. Sentry carriers existed long before the Domi got a boost, and almost nobody (save for blackhorizon) even considered using drone assign subcaps because they weren't that great. The only thing that changed between then and now is that Domis got a massive boost to sentry tracking and range.

If you truly want to nerf drone usage, then look at what makes them overpowered. Omnidirectionals are going to become scripted, but that doesn't solve the problem either. What about having Omnidirectionals, Drone Damage Amps, and Drone Links STACK with one another so you can't get absurd tracking, damage, AND range simultaneously? Make a mechanic so that someone with 50+ drones assigned to him has a visible effect. Heck, give a signature penalty if someone is controlling 50+ drones. Alternatively have the drone-assign guy inherit the lowest lock range. There are dozens of creative ways where you can solve the problem, instead of trying to band-aid one of the perceived abuses.

The balance team has consistently been knocking out home runs on everything it touches, so this completely underwhelming and uninspired change comes as a total surprise. So I implore you - look at what is wrong and fix that instead of trying to patch one use. Drones will keep making fires until you do.


+1 on that

CCP RISE call the doctor, it looks your anal hemorrhage rise again to your brain
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#631 - 2014-02-07 00:45:22 UTC
Bene, The Mittani. I need a man who has powerful friends. I need a trillion isk in cash. I need, The Mittani, all of those devs that you carry around in your pocket, like so many nickels and dimes.

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them
Nomad Kali
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#632 - 2014-02-07 00:48:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Nomad Kali
Desert Ice78 wrote:
Why do people think this is going to do anything about lag (or indeed believe the excuse that its going to help lag)?

Ignoring the fact that the change has nothing to do with lag, in the first instance there will potentially still be the same number of archons with the same number of sentries, with the same TiDi. Nothing changed. Second, even if there was less lag, they only consequence of that will be a bigger goon blob, with the result of the exact same lag as before.

This is about nerfing into the ground the only viable threat to CFC.

I'll just leave this here:

Quote:
[14:48:37] directorbot: Drone assist is being limited to 50 drones per person. You may now spend the rest of the day posting like maniacs while trolling our various defeated foes. Enjoy yourselves, you've earned it. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=319278

Yes, this means we'll have to toss Dominixes into the dustbin and return to using some real goddamned warships once this hits. :toot:

*** This was a broadcast from the_mittani to all-all at 2014-02-06 14:48:34.730289 EVE, replies are not monitored ***






For the 10 billionth time... The CFC has been using drone assist this whole time. We hated it but it was too damn good not to use. Ultimately, it was doomsdays that won the war just how you wanted it to be. We are just overjoyed to finally be able to drop this bullshit doctrine. That is all... "some real goddamned warships" AT LAST.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#633 - 2014-02-07 00:52:12 UTC
I have not read every page, but read the OP.

I take this as meaning you will only be able to assist up to 50 drones to one person, including their own drones.

Does this mean you can have a 2nd person with 50, a 3rd person with 50, and so on?

Will players get a message when the limit is reached by the person you are trying to assign them to?
Lquid Drisseg
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#634 - 2014-02-07 00:57:54 UTC
I feel this is the only way to fix it for now, but one thing that should also be implemented is a set of skills to allow assisting of drones and a set of skills that determine the number of drones you can be assisted with. I think it could work something like this:


Drone Assisting (x2 training multiplier, requires Drones 4 to train)
Increases the number of drones that you can assist to other players by 1 per level.

Advanced Drone Assisting (x5 training multiplier, requires Drone Assisting 5 to train)
Increases the number of drones that you can assist to other players by 1 per level.

Drone Management (x3 training multiplier, requires Drones 5 to train)
Allows remote control of an extra 5 drones per level.

Advanced Drone Management (x8 training multiplier, requires Drone Management 5 to train)
Allows remote control of an extra 5 drones per level.


This way everyone gets reset on the next feature patch and we can live without drone assists for a while.
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#635 - 2014-02-07 01:05:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Warde Guildencrantz
Lquid Drisseg wrote:
I feel this is the only way to fix it for now, but one thing that should also be implemented is a set of skills to allow assisting of drones and a set of skills that determine the number of drones you can be assisted with. I think it could work something like this:


Drone Assisting (x2 training multiplier, requires Drones 4 to train)
Increases the number of drones that you can assist to other players by 1 per level.

Advanced Drone Assisting (x5 training multiplier, requires Drone Assisting 5 to train)
Increases the number of drones that you can assist to other players by 1 per level.

Drone Management (x3 training multiplier, requires Drones 5 to train)
Allows remote control of an extra 5 drones per level.

Advanced Drone Management (x8 training multiplier, requires Drone Management 5 to train)
Allows remote control of an extra 5 drones per level.


This way everyone gets reset on the next feature patch and we can live without drone assists for a while.


ninja default 15 drones change, yea no

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Lquid Drisseg
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#636 - 2014-02-07 01:22:22 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Lquid Drisseg wrote:
I feel this is the only way to fix it for now, but one thing that should also be implemented is a set of skills to allow assisting of drones and a set of skills that determine the number of drones you can be assisted with. I think it could work something like this:


Drone Assisting (x2 training multiplier, requires Drones 4 to train)
Increases the number of drones that you can assist to other players by 1 per level.

Advanced Drone Assisting (x5 training multiplier, requires Drone Assisting 5 to train)
Increases the number of drones that you can assist to other players by 1 per level.

Drone Management (x3 training multiplier, requires Drones 5 to train)
Allows remote control of an extra 5 drones per level.

Advanced Drone Management (x8 training multiplier, requires Drone Management 5 to train)
Allows remote control of an extra 5 drones per level.


This way everyone gets reset on the next feature patch and we can live without drone assists for a while.


ninja default 15 drones change, yea no


In a fleet of Guardian-Vexor's I would think that you would want at least 5 drones to help protect your ship from everyone else in system trying to gank your ass.
I'm Down
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#637 - 2014-02-07 01:24:22 UTC  |  Edited by: I'm Down
Elise Randolph wrote:
It's not a bad change, but I don't think it addresses any of the /actual/ problems. Carrier blobs will still be incredibly efficient at defending objectives - which is where they are used now. Killing things will certainly be slower, there is no doubt about that, but does it matter if you're not dying and I can still kill you anywhere on grid?

Domis are very strong /not/ because they can focus fire every 4 seconds, but because they have cruiser -level tracking combined with BS-level damage and sniper-level range. Sentry carriers existed long before the Domi got a boost, and almost nobody (save for blackhorizon) even considered using drone assign subcaps because they weren't that great. The only thing that changed between then and now is that Domis got a massive boost to sentry tracking and range.

If you truly want to nerf drone usage, then look at what makes them overpowered. Omnidirectionals are going to become scripted, but that doesn't solve the problem either. What about having Omnidirectionals, Drone Damage Amps, and Drone Links STACK with one another so you can't get absurd tracking, damage, AND range simultaneously? Make a mechanic so that someone with 50+ drones assigned to him has a visible effect. Heck, give a signature penalty if someone is controlling 50+ drones. Alternatively have the drone-assign guy inherit the lowest lock range. There are dozens of creative ways where you can solve the problem, instead of trying to band-aid one of the perceived abuses.

The balance team has consistently been knocking out home runs on everything it touches, so this completely underwhelming and uninspired change comes as a total surprise. So I implore you - look at what is wrong and fix that instead of trying to patch one use. Drones will keep making fires until you do.


Elise, you're correct about some of the problem, not about the fix.

The problem stems from two things, Tracking... IE the tracking formula, and Carriers.

The primary problem with Carriers it that they're giant Logistic ships that can also do damage... and they are too good out of triage. If they would just nerf the range of Remote Repairs to normal, or less than normal out of Triage, then Carriers would be mostly fixed. Their current range for repairs is one of the driving issues here.

Logistics effects are also highly problematic. Logistics should not create a permanent wall blocking death. There needs to be a degrading effect to tank no matter how much logistics is employed. A secondary Recharge that affects overall capacity of Hitpoints that recharges relatively fast, but also reduces your maximum capacity of hit points when actively taking damage would mean that logistics could prolong death, but not totally prevent death for anyone who is continuously sustaining damage. (People should die... that's something this game deters far too often these days)

The erosion of maximum hit points should work on a recharge where your maximum HP takes 1-2 minutes to recharge and 10% (preliminary number) of all damage recieved adds to the erosion. So it would work like this:

I have1000 armor
I take 100 damage
I lose 10 armor of my maximum that must recharge over time
I also lose the other 90 armor that is instantly repairable.
I have 900 armor left with an immediate maximum amt of 990 left... the other 10% of maximum takes time to fully recover that logistics cannot impact.

That would help solve the big problem with carriers, keep logistics fairly strong, but remove the unkillable fleet concept.


The tracking formula is already greatly discussed in other threads, so I won't bother with it here... the devs don't listen anyways.... no matter how much positive player feedback there is.
Peter Francisco
Seriously Slack Nonindustrious
#638 - 2014-02-07 01:33:43 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:


I can't put a number on it, but currently Dominixes are responsible for somewhere in the ballpark of 5 times the PVP damage dealt of the next most popular fleet battleship, if that's still the case in a few months this will have 'not worked'.


This will be true of any fleet battleship used by the CFC while they are actively pursuing a war.
Is the CFC using a fleet concept therefore the standard for what needs to be nerfed?

They CFC has been QQ about drones since we started dropping Gilas and blasting them off their own undock in Delve. The drone buffs are hardly the root of it. The CFC adopted the Domi fleets for the express purpose of getting CCP to change the game mechanics for drones. Deliberately or not, you have allowed the CFC leadership to dictate your actions.

The Dominix is a very limited capability ship, even with drone assist. We (N3) originally adopted them to counter Tengu fleets in AU/Rus TZ but came up with several variations, each with different tactics intended to counter a specific type of enemy fleet.

N3 has effectively countered domi fleets with turret ships. Vs. the CFC, this was only on the (rare) occasions we were able to stay on the field without being overwhelmed by non-dominix CFC reinforcements and support. Against isolated Domi fleets (without support fleets as large as our own fleet) - we have effectively used Eagles, Ishtars, Proteus, and even Domis. A few hours ago, we used a (turret) Proteus fleet to eviscerate a slightly larger domi fleet. Drone assist was the only reason they were able to get any kills on us at all. Without drone assist, the domis would all be on the counter McDonalds.

In most cases of the CFC using the Dominix, Turret battleships would have probably out performed it. They never broke a wrecking ball or even slow cat fleet with the Dominix - because it is the wrong ship for the job. In HED and B-R, the principal function of the CFC Dominix was to induce lag and get blapped by dreads. If anything, their Domi fleet actually caused their loss in HED. The CFC has been able to win sub capital fights with Domis because their core battleship fleet doctrine is nearly irrelevant to their success. They have persisted in their use of Domi fleets not because of any characteristic of the Dominix or even of drone assign, but because they have been using the Dominix for meta game purposes.

What I find ironic is that the Dominix will end up being a casualty of the CFC meta game strategy to counter the wrecking ball - which is now pointless, as the CFC finally realized they can counter it with a larger group of titans plus a couple thousand players generating enough lag to make all other ships nearly irrelevant - anything with five drones, assisted or not, will do the job nicely.

I am not very concerned about these changes to the game impacting our fleets. They don't even require much adaptation for us, and we will continue to make effective use of drone ships where they are appropriate. If anything, we will be hurt by our enemies ending their over reliance on drone ships - especially the Dominix.

What concerns me is very simple. If you actually use this sort of statistical information to make decisions about game design, then the CFC can and will generate statistics which then dictate your actions. CCP has been played like a fiddle, and made unwarranted changes to long standing game design in response to the demands of a single player faction. It has been disgusting to watch the blatant manipulation, and has eroded many player's confidence in the independence of the dev team.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#639 - 2014-02-07 01:34:34 UTC
Lquid Drisseg wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Lquid Drisseg wrote:
I feel this is the only way to fix it for now, but one thing that should also be implemented is a set of skills to allow assisting of drones and a set of skills that determine the number of drones you can be assisted with. I think it could work something like this:


Drone Assisting (x2 training multiplier, requires Drones 4 to train)
Increases the number of drones that you can assist to other players by 1 per level.

Advanced Drone Assisting (x5 training multiplier, requires Drone Assisting 5 to train)
Increases the number of drones that you can assist to other players by 1 per level.

Drone Management (x3 training multiplier, requires Drones 5 to train)
Allows remote control of an extra 5 drones per level.

Advanced Drone Management (x8 training multiplier, requires Drone Management 5 to train)
Allows remote control of an extra 5 drones per level.


This way everyone gets reset on the next feature patch and we can live without drone assists for a while.


ninja default 15 drones change, yea no


In a fleet of Guardian-Vexor's I would think that you would want at least 5 drones to help protect your ship from everyone else in system trying to gank your ass.

The last guardian vexor sold for around 40b, there is no such thing as a fleet of guardian vexors.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
GeneralDisturbed
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#640 - 2014-02-07 01:35:58 UTC
Dear confused pubs in this thread: Stop suggesting bad ways to un-nerf your particular flavor of drones. EG: Can control/assign more of x drone, but not y. Or can use skills to increase amount of drones assigned/controlled.

CCP is getting rid of the massive pile of drones in every fight because they kill the server, and literally cut down the amount of people who can be in a fight by the -thousands-.

They've made it clear that they're going to continue to nerf them more, if drone boats don't stop being used enmasse with drone assignment. Fox news didn't write (steal) a badly made article and turn it into national news about eve, because you ran an incursion with a bunch of bots. Nullsec and their battles bring people to this game and make it headline news, so when something happens to balance nullsec that has a petty change to your botting of incursions, don't get super spergy on the forums. (Nobody cares).

TL;DR: Nobody cares about your botting in highsec, go back to the salt mines.