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Discussion - The Fall of Battlecruisers ?

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Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#81 - 2014-02-06 20:30:11 UTC
If he wants to start it he'll have to back up his words, simple as.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#82 - 2014-02-06 21:19:14 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
if you decide to forego mobility.. battleships outclass them completely

except tracking. and sig radius. and mass. and cost. and skill requirements.
but ok sure...

Sig is not relevant ifyouare not moving

Tracking is mildly relevant.. and easily outclassed by the presense of large neuts that. How in hell MASS is relevant when you decided to not move?

You know at least what forego the mobility means?

so....you dont move when you PVP? ok, think I found your problem...
tracking is extremely relevant pretty much always and mass is very relevant in WHs.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Jester Cap
A better day
#83 - 2014-02-06 23:52:49 UTC
Love the discussion. I feast on elitist tears. They taste so yummy.

BCs are fine exactly the way they are and work exactly as intended. Gone are the days of the BC one ship to rule them all. And good riddance. Just because it does not fit in your play envelope does not mean it is broken.

But please, do cry more, i shall feast on your tears. hmmm yummy.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#84 - 2014-02-07 00:55:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Chessur
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#85 - 2014-02-07 01:01:43 UTC
Now show us the ones where you didn't have links.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#86 - 2014-02-07 01:08:57 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Now show us the ones where you didn't have links.


STILL

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=20321361

SO

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=20209268 (Again KB ****** up, check on the losses side, most are done by me- solo)

MAD

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=20209232 (Same as above, check indiviual kills to see me)

#420xXkaoticXx Swag OD Smoke trees.

Wisdom.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#87 - 2014-02-07 01:17:33 UTC
- a **** fit drake, hilariously terrible Oracle, purifier lol, light loltron Thorax from yesteryear, terrible Nvexor. Also that wasn't one big fight, they're spread out, mostly single, kills.

- a whole bunch of hilarious idiots lol blobs
- same as above


I'm not saying you're bad, that would be silly. But there's a big difference between being linked fighting clowns and using that perspective to make general overall statements.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#88 - 2014-02-07 01:22:21 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
- a **** fit drake, hilariously terrible Oracle, purifier lol, light loltron Thorax from yesteryear, terrible Nvexor. Also that wasn't one big fight, they're spread out, mostly single, kills.

- a whole bunch of hilarious idiots lol blobs
- same as above


I'm not saying you're bad, that would be silly. But there's a big difference between being linked fighting clowns and using that perspective to make general overall statements.





http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=19079330

xX 420 katotic thriller Xx

You still have yet to post a thing.

I think you have nothing, and I think that i am done with this charade.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#89 - 2014-02-07 01:23:44 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
- a **** fit drake, hilariously terrible Oracle, purifier lol, light loltron Thorax from yesteryear, terrible Nvexor. Also that wasn't one big fight, they're spread out, mostly single, kills.

- a whole bunch of hilarious idiots lol blobs
- same as above


I'm not saying you're bad, that would be silly. But there's a big difference between being linked fighting clowns and using that perspective to make general overall statements.





It was one fight actually. I had a falcon, and they also had logi. Getting the kills took some time, and it was really hard. BUt you wouldn't know anything about that. Keep sitting in your smelly office chair, EFT warrioring.

They have a place for people like you. Its called

http://failheap-challenge.com/

Why don't you go and make a home there?
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#90 - 2014-02-07 01:28:03 UTC
Chessur wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
- a **** fit drake, hilariously terrible Oracle, purifier lol, light loltron Thorax from yesteryear, terrible Nvexor. Also that wasn't one big fight, they're spread out, mostly single, kills.

- a whole bunch of hilarious idiots lol blobs
- same as above


I'm not saying you're bad, that would be silly. But there's a big difference between being linked fighting clowns and using that perspective to make general overall statements.





It was one fight actually. I had a falcon, and they also had logi. Getting the kills took some time, and it was really hard. BUt you wouldn't know anything about that. Keep sitting in your smelly office chair, EFT warrioring.

They have a place for people like you. Its called

http://failheap-challenge.com/

Why don't you go and make a home there?



That's funny, at least one ship died around 14:30, some around 1600 and some more around 18:00. I understand just fine how one has to separate targets but that's not "one fight".
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#91 - 2014-02-07 01:31:12 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Chessur wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
- a **** fit drake, hilariously terrible Oracle, purifier lol, light loltron Thorax from yesteryear, terrible Nvexor. Also that wasn't one big fight, they're spread out, mostly single, kills.

- a whole bunch of hilarious idiots lol blobs
- same as above


I'm not saying you're bad, that would be silly. But there's a big difference between being linked fighting clowns and using that perspective to make general overall statements.





It was one fight actually. I had a falcon, and they also had logi. Getting the kills took some time, and it was really hard. BUt you wouldn't know anything about that. Keep sitting in your smelly office chair, EFT warrioring.

They have a place for people like you. Its called

http://failheap-challenge.com/

Why don't you go and make a home there?



That's funny, at least one ship died around 14:30, some around 1600 and some more around 18:00. I understand just fine how one has to separate targets but that's not "one fight".


You're cute. I post all of this, and yet you have nothing to show but poorly leveled criticisms of my kills.

Either put up yours or Shut up. You have lost.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#92 - 2014-02-07 01:36:35 UTC
I realise it's a bit ****** and cheeky but I'm not the one who brought this epeening up, you did. And so far all we've seen from you is being linked killing ****** clowns. Nothing wrong with killing clowns, don't get me wrong, but you're hardly going against people on a similar level. How many kills one has isn't really important nor at the ones who are just silly because if that were the case ppl who PVP in blobs and getting onto titan killmails would be godly pvpers.

The only kills (or losses, also fine0 that really "count" are the ones where one actually is in danger of losing. Shooting shield/armor tanked idiots with 17 WCS per ship while being linked up to hell and back doesn't count :P
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#93 - 2014-02-07 02:05:31 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
I realise it's a bit ****** and cheeky but I'm not the one who brought this epeening up, you did. And so far all we've seen from you is being linked killing ****** clowns. Nothing wrong with killing clowns, don't get me wrong, but you're hardly going against people on a similar level. How many kills one has isn't really important nor at the ones who are just silly because if that were the case ppl who PVP in blobs and getting onto titan killmails would be godly pvpers.

The only kills (or losses, also fine0 that really "count" are the ones where one actually is in danger of losing. Shooting shield/armor tanked idiots with 17 WCS per ship while being linked up to hell and back doesn't count :P


All I hear is WINE WINE WINE and nothing of your own to show.
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#94 - 2014-02-07 04:45:18 UTC
IMO there are two main factors in the reduction of the BC being the 'go to ship' class.

T1 cruiser rebalance. Finally T1 cruisers were brought up to a reasonable power level. And guess what?! people started using them.

And second.

FW plex changes. FW pilots were some of the most proficient BC pilots in game. When then changes came there became pretty much no reason to fly them while FW'ing rather than just roaming looking for a fight.

For the most part T1 cruiser v BC I think is pretty well balanced. But that is in my skewed version of reality around some e-warrior stuffs etc. Unfortunately the current meta is pretty much all speed speed speed. This suits chessur nicely in his playstyle but is something I have to work pretty hard at as I like a good brawl etc.

Let BC back into more FW plex and you'll see a rise in the number of pvp in BC.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#95 - 2014-02-07 07:29:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Garviel Tarrant
Gregor Parud wrote:
Chessur wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Why are people that don't even show up on a killboard search piping in on ship balance? =/


Welcome to EvE-o forums, where everyone has a deep theoretical understanding of PvP- yet no actual experience, or kills to back up the gum flapping. But they use phrases filled with jargon, and navel terminology to make their arguments seem coherent.



Show us a kill of yours where the opponent actually had any skill or a good chance to win but didn't. You know, where you don't have gang links or people backing you and you don't kill double tanked **** fit newbie ships.

Go find some in the last 3 months, if you find more than, say, 10 you win :)


Totally not fair, i've been spending about 12 hours a day down at the university the last few months.

As for links.. i don't even have an alt.. And i could link you plenty of me-vs-many killboard links but i'm not a huge fan of chest thumping?


As to these being ad hominem attacks, in a way.. But its more pointing out that there are people partaking in the debate that have no ******* idea what they are talking about. Seriously, before i started pvping i thought i was pretty damn knowledgable about how the game worked. The thing you realize after you start pvping a lot is that you actually had no ******* clue how anything worked.



(Also if you want to see BC's in FW space, make some profitable plexes NOT doable in frigates)

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#96 - 2014-02-07 08:16:16 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

(Also if you want to see BC's in FW space, make some profitable plexes NOT doable in frigates)


Completely agree Lol

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#97 - 2014-02-07 08:39:40 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
As to these being ad hominem attacks, in a way.. But its more pointing out that there are people partaking in the debate that have no ******* idea what they are talking about. Seriously, before i started pvping i thought i was pretty damn knowledgable about how the game worked. The thing you realize after you start pvping a lot is that you actually had no ******* clue how anything worked.



Here's why we're having this argument.

Several people in this thread: "A BC doesn't fit in my personal play style and also they're not as obviously amazing and OP as they were before, they now suck"

me: "Yes they got rebalanced but it was needed as they were silly, why would you want to go back to that? Also just because they don't fit in your specific play style doesn't mean they're bad, they get the job done for people who aren't as "advanced" as some of us, how is that a bad thing?"

My statement stands just fine.



Garviel Tarrant wrote:
(Also if you want to see BC's in FW space, make some profitable plexes NOT doable in frigates)


Yup that would help very much.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#98 - 2014-02-07 08:51:10 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
if you decide to forego mobility.. battleships outclass them completely

except tracking. and sig radius. and mass. and cost. and skill requirements.
but ok sure...

Sig is not relevant ifyouare not moving

Tracking is mildly relevant.. and easily outclassed by the presense of large neuts that. How in hell MASS is relevant when you decided to not move?

You know at least what forego the mobility means?

so....you dont move when you PVP? ok, think I found your problem...
tracking is extremely relevant pretty much always and mass is very relevant in WHs.



Dude are you an #!#!@#? Or simply unable to read?

When you want to focus on mobility you are going to us a CRUISER. When you decide that you do nto need to rely on mobility, that is when you use battleships!

Only an idiot would not understand my statement.

WHERE IN HELL THAT MEANS DO NOT MOVE!!!?????? When you are fighting with battleships you are not going to outtrack ANY cruiser , so your mobility is nearly irrelevant!!! You rely on your neuts to shut down smaller ships or on tacklers to hold them. But you are NOT goign to avoid damage from a T3 by outtrackign it with your battleship.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#99 - 2014-02-07 08:55:31 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
I realise it's a bit ****** and cheeky but I'm not the one who brought this epeening up, you did. And so far all we've seen from you is being linked killing ****** clowns. Nothing wrong with killing clowns, don't get me wrong, but you're hardly going against people on a similar level. How many kills one has isn't really important nor at the ones who are just silly because if that were the case ppl who PVP in blobs and getting onto titan killmails would be godly pvpers.

The only kills (or losses, also fine0 that really "count" are the ones where one actually is in danger of losing. Shooting shield/armor tanked idiots with 17 WCS per ship while being linked up to hell and back doesn't count :P



Not true. because your parameters reinforce a signle type of challenge. The main drawback of BC is exaclty that they are not mobile enough (and by that I mean align and warp spee dmostly) to catch clowns traveling.

Simple example.. hunting WT in high sec. You need to have a spread network of intel .. and when one is spotted you need to get there really fast if they are not in a fleet. you need a cruiser or frigate. BC are bad for that.. and will make you loose the kill.

If they are in a fleet and want to fight.. then you can bring something slower... but then.. why not bring a battleship ?

That is the main problem. There are not many situatiosn too tough for a cruiser... but that need hurry enough that a battleship would not be better.

Increase BC hulls warp speed to cruiser level and they will become way better.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#100 - 2014-02-07 09:30:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Again, you're looking at it from your perspective, try looking at it from your target's perspective. Apart from not having the links and organisation (and possibly RR) a BC in the hands of a less experienced player is more straight forward to use and more forgiving. They stand a higher chance of going "come at me bro".

If you're just 1 or 2 people you'd have more trouble taking on 2-3 decently fitted newbro canes than, say, Ruptures. Nothing saying you won't win but you're going to be a tad more careful about it. That's the point. BC's aren't the OP overpowering ships any more like they were, nor should be they. But they'll still kick your head in if you get caught by them.

Stop looking at it from the "I have links and RR, my targets they don't and they're clueless so I'll always win" perspective, start looking at it from the "I'm fairly new so can't fly T2 and don't want to risk pirate faction because I'm probably gonna lose this ship fairly soon, also I'm not experienced enough to make more intricate strategies happen. BC seems like a good deal to me." pov.