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New dev blog: Anomalies revisited

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Baki Yuku
Doomheim
#281 - 2011-11-24 11:48:57 UTC
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:
That affects the profitability with short range fits (and non-sentry drone fits).

However, have you considered changing your fits to more long range one and checking if that improves the ISK/h?


You do know that there is a reason why you do not fit Railguns for ratting same with Beams? While sentry's are a viable option for ratting with Machariel since you dont realy need to move with it and your guns do most of the damage anyways it is NOT an option for carriers because the main source of damage for carriers are their drones and 10 sentry's simply do not compare to 10 fighters in damage using sentry's with carriers would nerf you income even further. As for railguns there you have tracking issues for low orbiting NPC's as well as very low DPS so its not an option. Much the same apply's to beams and artys. Switching to long range will not give you more it infact will give you less.
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#282 - 2011-11-24 12:17:44 UTC
Baki Yuku wrote:
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:
That affects the profitability with short range fits (and non-sentry drone fits).

However, have you considered changing your fits to more long range one and checking if that improves the ISK/h?


You do know that there is a reason why you do not fit Railguns for ratting same with Beams? While sentry's are a viable option for ratting with Machariel since you dont realy need to move with it and your guns do most of the damage anyways it is NOT an option for carriers because the main source of damage for carriers are their drones and 10 sentry's simply do not compare to 10 fighters in damage using sentry's with carriers would nerf you income even further. As for railguns there you have tracking issues for low orbiting NPC's as well as very low DPS so its not an option. Much the same apply's to beams and artys. Switching to long range will not give you more it infact will give you less.


Railguns aren't used for ratting because up until now, they weren't used for anything.

Beams are used for ratting.

Sentries are not viable for ratting with machariel because machariel is not a sentry ship.

Ratting with a sentry carrier really sucks..


Again, railguns. You are completely forgetting about the changes coming to them.


I apologize, but reading your posts you strike me as the kind of person who has a hard time figuring things out.


Buffs to the anomalies are good, the main issues have been acknowlodged and will get ironed out. For the rest, you just need to adapt.

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
Sigras
Conglomo
#283 - 2011-11-24 12:43:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigras
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Dierdra Vaal wrote:
My question for greyscale and the other CCP devs that worked on this is the following:

Quote:
Specifically, we determined a target average ISK value for every site and then tuned each one upwards (every site bar one ended up needing a buff of some kind) to meet the target goal


Given that the eve economy is already suffering from a lot of inflation, to the point where both your CEO and your lead economist have said that the economy is 'broken', how do you justify increasing ISK faucets even more when you should be doing the opposite?

Has any research been done in how this increased income will affect the game and the economy as a whole?


The data I have in front of me suggest that - excluding PLEX - inflation has been relatively stable since mid 2008. We generally see increased volatility around expansions, but our CPI today is about the same as it was circa Q2 2008. We do need to do more work to balance out our ISK flows, but we also need people to be playing our game, and specifically we need people to be running anomalies if we want nullsec to be a healthy area of the game.

I really dont mean to sound like a broken record, or be snobbish but I quote the 2010 Q4 QEN

2010 Q4 QEN wrote:
EVE Central Bank has been monitoring the money supply closely and is becoming increasingly
concerned about the rate of growth in the total money supply and the subsequent risk of inflation
increase (see next section). The bank has therefore proposed that in 2011 there should be a focus
on increasing ISK sinks in order to curb potential inflation.

This change seems to be the opposite of that . . . What?

Also, PLEX are the standard rate of conversion between the USD or whatever real currency you want to compare it to, when the exchange rate swings widely in one direction, it indicates a weaker economy and thus inflation.

Everything else is ancillary, the PLEX is the standard that should be used to measure inflation if the ISK
Baki Yuku
Doomheim
#284 - 2011-11-24 13:06:56 UTC
Renan Ruivo wrote:
Baki Yuku wrote:
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:
That affects the profitability with short range fits (and non-sentry drone fits).

However, have you considered changing your fits to more long range one and checking if that improves the ISK/h?


You do know that there is a reason why you do not fit Railguns for ratting same with Beams? While sentry's are a viable option for ratting with Machariel since you dont realy need to move with it and your guns do most of the damage anyways it is NOT an option for carriers because the main source of damage for carriers are their drones and 10 sentry's simply do not compare to 10 fighters in damage using sentry's with carriers would nerf you income even further. As for railguns there you have tracking issues for low orbiting NPC's as well as very low DPS so its not an option. Much the same apply's to beams and artys. Switching to long range will not give you more it infact will give you less.


Railguns aren't used for ratting because up until now, they weren't used for anything.

Beams are used for ratting.

Sentries are not viable for ratting with machariel because machariel is not a sentry ship.

Ratting with a sentry carrier really sucks..


Again, railguns. You are completely forgetting about the changes coming to them.


I apologize, but reading your posts you strike me as the kind of person who has a hard time figuring things out.


Buffs to the anomalies are good, the main issues have been acknowlodged and will get ironed out. For the rest, you just need to adapt.


Yeah Beams are used for ratting but to my knowledge only for belt ratting doh I might be wrong about that. And Yeah sentry's are used on machariels because you can put in 4 of these and with the massive falloff machariels offer you do not need to move in anomalies at all.

Also in regards to the incoming railgun changes yeah I sure as hell took them into account and guess what damage wise they dont change all that much which means it also does not effect your ratting efficiency.

I already stated that ratting carrier with sentry's is not an option so your point is?...
Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
#285 - 2011-11-24 15:28:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Zendoren
Renan Ruivo wrote:
Baki Yuku wrote:
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:
That affects the profitability with short range fits (and non-sentry drone fits).

However, have you considered changing your fits to more long range one and checking if that improves the ISK/h?


You do know that there is a reason why you do not fit Railguns for ratting same with Beams? While sentry's are a viable option for ratting with Machariel since you dont realy need to move with it and your guns do most of the damage anyways it is NOT an option for carriers because the main source of damage for carriers are their drones and 10 sentry's simply do not compare to 10 fighters in damage using sentry's with carriers would nerf you income even further. As for railguns there you have tracking issues for low orbiting NPC's as well as very low DPS so its not an option. Much the same apply's to beams and artys. Switching to long range will not give you more it infact will give you less.


Railguns aren't used for ratting because up until now, they weren't used for anything.

Beams are used for ratting.

Sentries are not viable for ratting with machariel because machariel is not a sentry ship.

Ratting with a sentry carrier really sucks..


Again, railguns. You are completely forgetting about the changes coming to them.


I apologize, but reading your posts you strike me as the kind of person who has a hard time figuring things out.


Buffs to the anomalies are good, the main issues have been acknowlodged and will get ironed out. For the rest, you just need to adapt.


May i add also that they will be adding T2 Tractor beams! Just saying....

However, I would like to know the difference (Isk:hr) between fitting short range and using sentry drones as apposed to fitting long range and using heavy/med/scout drones now that the new hybrid changes are coming. Depending on answer, sounds like the domi is the new it ship for anoms!

❒ Single ❒ Taken ✔ Playing EVE Online

CCP Guard > Where's the shoot button on this thing?

CCP Space Cadet > What's this "offline guns" button do?
RaZor Flash
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#286 - 2011-11-24 16:00:50 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Baki Yuku wrote:
@CCP Greyscale when you guys decided to calculate the value of anomalies based on EHP:ISK did you take into account the fact that all high value NPC's have a much larger obit then the lower ones which results in quit a bit of DPS being lost and time being lost to approach these? Because after allot of testing right now on SISI I make less isk per hour then BEFORE your so called buff. Because my Fighter need more time to get to the targets even doh they have a higher EHP:ISK ratio I still make less. Due to the time it takes to take them out / get to them. Ofc this will not affect missile ships but this DOES affect all turret and drone ships quit a bit. So here's my question what are you gonna do about it? Because right now as I see it a Forsaken Hub yields 27,8M bounty total but takes 18 minutes to complete while before it was about 18M bounty and took 10 minutes to complete. So that leaves me with 1,8M isk per minute right now and after change its about 1,55M isk per minute which means that this is infact a nerf. What this change will do is open up more anomalies for others because right now you need 2 havens/forsaken hubs etc per person to be profitable after patch you will only need 1 per person. Still your intention to buff income has not been meet. A simple fix would be change the orbiting radius of the value NPC's from 39km down to 20-25km this would make quit a difference for all the people using short range weapons like blasters.


Huh. Interesting.


Im not really sure how to take your response but, He is completely right.

I feel like I need to ask the questions since you are communicating with us. Thank you by the way

What is the intention of increasing the ISK:EHP ratio?
Are you actually trying to increase profitability in 0.0...as in more isk per hour?
Why are you even doing this / What is your hope?
Are you starting to understand this is a nerf or was that your intention all along?

Greyscale, you do realize I'm NOT campaigning for more isk/hour.

I am campaigning to earn slightly *less* than I do on live. The high priority update that will happen *eventually* will soften the nerf bat, but I believe in the end it will still be a nerf. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.

The biggest buff you did to 0.0 anomalies with the scanner change. :P
RaZor Flash
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#287 - 2011-11-24 16:00:52 UTC  |  Edited by: RaZor Flash
double post deleted
Baki Yuku
Doomheim
#288 - 2011-11-24 17:26:07 UTC
Zendoren wrote:
Renan Ruivo wrote:
Baki Yuku wrote:
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:
That affects the profitability with short range fits (and non-sentry drone fits).

However, have you considered changing your fits to more long range one and checking if that improves the ISK/h?


You do know that there is a reason why you do not fit Railguns for ratting same with Beams? While sentry's are a viable option for ratting with Machariel since you dont realy need to move with it and your guns do most of the damage anyways it is NOT an option for carriers because the main source of damage for carriers are their drones and 10 sentry's simply do not compare to 10 fighters in damage using sentry's with carriers would nerf you income even further. As for railguns there you have tracking issues for low orbiting NPC's as well as very low DPS so its not an option. Much the same apply's to beams and artys. Switching to long range will not give you more it infact will give you less.


Railguns aren't used for ratting because up until now, they weren't used for anything.

Beams are used for ratting.

Sentries are not viable for ratting with machariel because machariel is not a sentry ship.

Ratting with a sentry carrier really sucks..


Again, railguns. You are completely forgetting about the changes coming to them.


I apologize, but reading your posts you strike me as the kind of person who has a hard time figuring things out.


Buffs to the anomalies are good, the main issues have been acknowlodged and will get ironed out. For the rest, you just need to adapt.


May i add also that they will be adding T2 Tractor beams! Just saying....

However, I would like to know the difference (Isk:hr) between fitting short range and using sentry drones as apposed to fitting long range and using heavy/med/scout drones now that the new hybrid changes are coming. Depending on answer, sounds like the domi is the new it ship for anoms!


Its just not viable to use long range weapons in anomalies because of the extremely long cycle time high alpha (beams/artys) you will always wast away damage/time. Another issue is once ships slip under your tracking.. And ofc there is the difference in DPS which is at least 20% and that's only the numerical difference not taking into account wasted damage/time due to to many guns on a bs/cruiser etc.. So sadly no long range fits are not a viable option for ratting.

If you life in a region where you need EMP/TERM/EXPLO ammo your best choise would be the machariel due to its 50% falloff bonus enabling it to hit quit nicly at 20-30km distance fit it with 4 sentry's as well and you don't need to move at all in the anomaly get instant damage of which next to nothing gets wasted etc.. Same applys for the Nightmare in Sansha/Blood space. Machariel 800mm autos and Nightmare with T2 pulse.

Well after patch this is obviously getting a bit less isk/h bit it is still a whole lot more then you get with long range fits and yes I've tested it.
Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#289 - 2011-11-24 20:28:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyla Skin
Evelgrivion wrote:


That honestly isn't how it works. If PVP for the sake of PVP was the most fun you could have, people would duke it out on the test servers even more than they do today. The real driver is meaningful PVP.


The problem is that test servers empty (not to mention the rules for consentual pvp only..)

I have never really thought of having reasons for pvp. People rarely fight even when they have to.

In after the lock :P   - CCP Falcon www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#290 - 2011-11-24 21:37:44 UTC
Baki Yuku wrote:
Yeah Beams are used for ratting but to my knowledge only for belt ratting doh I might be wrong about that. And Yeah sentry's are used on machariels because you can put in 4 of these and with the massive falloff machariels offer you do not need to move in anomalies at all.

Also in regards to the incoming railgun changes yeah I sure as hell took them into account and guess what damage wise they dont change all that much which means it also does not effect your ratting efficiency.

I already stated that ratting carrier with sentry's is not an option so your point is?...


My point was that i was agreeing with you on that specific point =)

The changes are good. Before them you could only hope to make >100m per hour with sanctums. Now you can make 100m per hour with sanctums, havens, forsaken hubs, forsaken rally points and forlon hubs. It is possible. The problem is that apparently you want to apply your old tactic to new content instead of adapting.

Like i said, the problem is you, not what is being changed. Adapt.

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
RaZor Flash
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#291 - 2011-11-24 22:53:29 UTC  |  Edited by: RaZor Flash
Renan Ruivo wrote:
Baki Yuku wrote:
Yeah Beams are used for ratting but to my knowledge only for belt ratting doh I might be wrong about that. And Yeah sentry's are used on machariels because you can put in 4 of these and with the massive falloff machariels offer you do not need to move in anomalies at all.

Also in regards to the incoming railgun changes yeah I sure as hell took them into account and guess what damage wise they dont change all that much which means it also does not effect your ratting efficiency.

I already stated that ratting carrier with sentry's is not an option so your point is?...


My point was that i was agreeing with you on that specific point =)

The changes are good. Before them you could only hope to make >100m per hour with sanctums. Now you can make 100m per hour with sanctums, havens, forsaken hubs, forsaken rally points and forlon hubs. It is possible. The problem is that apparently you want to apply your old tactic to new content instead of adapting.

Like i said, the problem is you, not what is being changed. Adapt.


We had a convo, and correct me if im wrong, but you are making 100 mil per hour in anomalies using multiple accounts.

Not solo and in a sub-cap battleship. Or am I mistaken?

If you are doing it solo, and in a sub cap ship, we need to talk again :D

We need to talk about isk per hour in anomalies on a per character standard.

I.e. I can make 90 mil an hour, with 1 character on live, sub capital.

Edit: I have also been playing around on SISI, a lot, running multiple anomalies, and trying to get comparable isk/hour ratios, but I am simply not getting as much as I do on live.
Baki Yuku
Doomheim
#292 - 2011-11-25 10:12:08 UTC
@ Grayscale have you ever concider'd just switch all the Deathspace NPC's in anomalies out for Asteroid type NPC's this would boost income by quit a bit. The reasons are asteroid NPC's have higher bountys, lower resistances and larger signature radius.
This should enable well skilled zero zero pilots to get far more out of anomalies. About 1,5 to 2 times as much as right now so with a pimp ship you should get 40-60mil per tick which translates into 120-180m which I think it should be concidering its zero zero where you life so you have to pay for pvp ships and stuff this.

You can determine the value of an anomaly based on sec status so for example in a -0,45 to -0,54 system the best battleships in anomalies would be 1,55m bounty for angel space that would be Angel Throne. It would equal what can spawn in belts and best that can spawn for belts in -0.45 to -0.54 are Angel Thrones for angel space. The better the sec status gets the better the anomalies get much the same with "bad" space. This would make the difference between desirable space and not so much more drastic and maybe increase the change that people would acutely fight based on the value of a system in regards to ratting.

The same should be done with Hidden belts (Industry upgrades) the better the sec status the more A-B-C you get in hidden belts. But that's just my opinion. Because right now every zero zero system no matter how "bad" the sec status is worth equally much for miners and that is stu:pid.
Tiger's Spirit
Templars of the Shadows
#293 - 2011-11-25 10:50:20 UTC
Still not got answer.
What about with faction spawns, and ridicuolus low faction drop rate ?
Redklaw
Edge Of Infinity
True Reign
#294 - 2011-11-25 14:43:21 UTC
What Baki is talking about is something you only really get if you live in Angels space (which I do), as it's pretty much localized to that rat type. Which is why the arguments "fit arty / rails" and "it screws up everything else" keep going back and forth.

The extreme majority of Angels rats are extreme close range orbiters, I'm talking like inside 5km orbits for almost every single rat. They are also very fast rats. So pretty much you need to fit close in weapon systems like AC's in order to complete these with any type of real speed (as you will be relying on drone dps for anything that comes within the tracking speed of artillery).

The issue for him is that Angel's rats with VERY high bounties have 40-45km orbits and move relatively fast. This means by adding a whole lot of these we have an uneven distribution of rats in these anomalies that makes it more difficult to build a non-missile ship that can maintain a damage envelope that can compete with the ISK / Hr rewards in the anomalies that are currently on TQ.

Most ships will get more ISK per anomaly in most angel sites, but less ISK per hour than what can currently be achieved on TQ.

Some ships won't really notice a difference. I normally PVE in null in either a Cynabal (when ratting) or a Sleipnir (anoms), so I will probably benefit a bit (I fit for AC's, but I travel OMGWTFBBQ m/s in a Sleipnir so it doesn't matter much). Drake / Tengu users will reap in the ISK / Hr.

Pretty much, the type of rats being added nerf most turret ship ratters in Angels Space.
RaZor Flash
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#295 - 2011-11-25 17:19:18 UTC
Redklaw wrote:
What Baki is talking about is something you only really get if you live in Angels space (which I do), as it's pretty much localized to that rat type. Which is why the arguments "fit arty / rails" and "it screws up everything else" keep going back and forth.

The extreme majority of Angels rats are extreme close range orbiters, I'm talking like inside 5km orbits for almost every single rat. They are also very fast rats. So pretty much you need to fit close in weapon systems like AC's in order to complete these with any type of real speed (as you will be relying on drone dps for anything that comes within the tracking speed of artillery).

The issue for him is that Angel's rats with VERY high bounties have 40-45km orbits and move relatively fast. This means by adding a whole lot of these we have an uneven distribution of rats in these anomalies that makes it more difficult to build a non-missile ship that can maintain a damage envelope that can compete with the ISK / Hr rewards in the anomalies that are currently on TQ.

Most ships will get more ISK per anomaly in most angel sites, but less ISK per hour than what can currently be achieved on TQ.

Some ships won't really notice a difference. I normally PVE in null in either a Cynabal (when ratting) or a Sleipnir (anoms), so I will probably benefit a bit (I fit for AC's, but I travel OMGWTFBBQ m/s in a Sleipnir so it doesn't matter much). Drake / Tengu users will reap in the ISK / Hr.

Pretty much, the type of rats being added nerf most turret ship ratters in Angels Space.


The isk/hour is all that matters.

If someone is able to get 90 mil an hour live but after this patch they get 70 mil/hour
Then another person who gets 30 mil an hour now gets 40 mil after patch.

Is the patch a buff or nerf?

Im going ot go with nerf, becuase the person who was earning 30 had the potential to earn 90 they just couldln't figure out how to do it.

The only thing that matters, imo, is maximum isk/hour for a EACH character in a sub capital ship. Honestly though, thanatos is the only carrier worth using for ratting, the others just dont have the firepower.
myFORUMalt alts
Doomheim
#296 - 2011-11-26 03:22:14 UTC
I think the real question is
bounties on rogue drones, YES NO WHEN

Yes, I complain about things I don't like.
Mograthi
#297 - 2011-11-26 14:11:05 UTC
myFORUMalt alts wrote:
I think the real question is
bounties on rogue drones, YES NO WHEN


I think it is apparent what the answer for us is. Since after a certain point in this thread CCP stopped responding to anything about drones the answer us drone folks are getting is STFU/HTFU or GTFO of drone regions.
Be like the rest of us and just stop ratting drones and move on to the Approved 100 million an hour ISK fountain of Incursions.
Sigras
Conglomo
#298 - 2011-11-27 22:55:56 UTC
RaZor Flash wrote:
The isk/hour is all that matters.

If someone is able to get 90 mil an hour live but after this patch they get 70 mil/hour
Then another person who gets 30 mil an hour now gets 40 mil after patch.

Is the patch a buff or nerf?

Im going ot go with nerf, becuase the person who was earning 30 had the potential to earn 90 they just couldln't figure out how to do it.

The only thing that matters, imo, is maximum isk/hour for a EACH character in a sub capital ship. Honestly though, thanatos is the only carrier worth using for ratting, the others just dont have the firepower.


I agree, isk/hour is all that matters. . . but what ship and skills should they use? your tengu? a deadspace tengu? an officer tengu? a nyx? a titan?

By what scale should they measure isk/hour? yours?
Asyrdin Harate
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#299 - 2011-11-27 23:03:04 UTC
Sigras wrote:
RaZor Flash wrote:
The isk/hour is all that matters.

If someone is able to get 90 mil an hour live but after this patch they get 70 mil/hour
Then another person who gets 30 mil an hour now gets 40 mil after patch.

Is the patch a buff or nerf?

Im going ot go with nerf, becuase the person who was earning 30 had the potential to earn 90 they just couldln't figure out how to do it.

The only thing that matters, imo, is maximum isk/hour for a EACH character in a sub capital ship. Honestly though, thanatos is the only carrier worth using for ratting, the others just dont have the firepower.


I agree, isk/hour is all that matters. . . but what ship and skills should they use? your tengu? a deadspace tengu? an officer tengu? a nyx? a titan?

By what scale should they measure isk/hour? yours?


Regular t2 fit BS as those are the ships that the vast majority of players use. Faction fits/ships and implants are just upgrades of the regular stuff that net more isk/hour in return for a higher risk
Sigras
Conglomo
#300 - 2011-11-28 09:38:53 UTC
what exactly is a "regular fit"? T2 rigs? short range weapons? Long range weapons? how many damage mods? shield tanked or armor tanked? what about an ishtar against the guristas? cap boosted or passive?

please link the standard fit that everyone uses for all anomalies everywhere . . .