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Increasing Server Tick Frequency to 2Hz ... Good, Bad, Ugly?
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Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
New Eden Tech Support
#41 - 2014-02-06 17:37:33 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
Deadonstick wrote:
I definitely agree this should happen for non-giant population systems. Drone control since the AI patch has been a ***** because it takes a second for your drones to react.

not only drones, it happen more and more often that you activate a module and it take a second more to actually activate.

when this happen on a gate, where you try to point something, you succesfully ock, you are in range, but the module just doesn't start....... or some odd times, it cycles, but you don't have agression and the tgt still warp out .
no stabs involved, talking about shuttles or hictor focus point, also occurs with regular point vs regular ship but then, the wcs is a possibility so hard to tell (well, i'd say if cycle + aggro timer => wcs, if not, server fail).

tbh, this is infuriating, to actually point something and see it go anyway because of this tick crap

point should apply on same tick as lock if preactivated, you lock it with preactivation, point is applyed 100%


Have you noticed this more since Rubicon 1.1? I remember thinking that there was a twofold delay although the module was preheated ... maybe it wasn't "just me being tired."

Thank me later :D
Desivo Delta Visseroff
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2014-02-06 17:50:52 UTC
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley wrote:

Have you noticed this more since Rubicon 1.1? I remember thinking that there was a twofold delay although the module was preheated ... maybe it wasn't "just me being tired."


No, it's not just you. There has been some strange lag since 1.1. Modules, warping, docking and fitting seem to skip/hiccup quite a bit.

I was hunting for sick loot, but all I could get my hands on were 50 corpses[:|]..............[:=d]
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#43 - 2014-02-06 17:51:46 UTC
Notorious Fellon wrote:
Pew Terror wrote:


Doubling the calculation frequency is a linear progression... Pay more attention in class.


The resulting calculations are not. When you have to relay the information (say a change in a ships vector due to a double-click in space) you have to transmit that to every other ship on grid. It is precisely n^2 increased communication over the network.

Also; drop the attitude.


That's if you increase the number of pilots / entities on grid. Not if you double the frequency of calculation.

Doing the same calculations for one tick now, and then doing it again in .5s or in 5 minutes will use the same amount of processing power for the tick.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#44 - 2014-02-06 19:05:40 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:
Deadonstick wrote:
I definitely agree this should happen for non-giant population systems. Drone control since the AI patch has been a ***** because it takes a second for your drones to react.

not only drones, it happen more and more often that you activate a module and it take a second more to actually activate.

when this happen on a gate, where you try to point something, you succesfully ock, you are in range, but the module just doesn't start....... or some odd times, it cycles, but you don't have agression and the tgt still warp out .
no stabs involved, talking about shuttles or hictor focus point, also occurs with regular point vs regular ship but then, the wcs is a possibility so hard to tell (well, i'd say if cycle + aggro timer => wcs, if not, server fail).

tbh, this is infuriating, to actually point something and see it go anyway because of this tick crap

point should apply on same tick as lock if preactivated, you lock it with preactivation, point is applyed 100%


Have you noticed this more since Rubicon 1.1? I remember thinking that there was a twofold delay although the module was preheated ... maybe it wasn't "just me being tired."

i infact started noticing it a year and half ago, but it was a very rare event

but since one year, it is happening more and more

in my corp, we even started using hictors (mostly phobos) because we thought they were stabbed.

of course some were, but some were still evading and since odyssey, it was even more, 1.1, it's a nightmare.

there are "lags" all over the place, before it was only noticeable when timing was really tight like catching a fast ship on a gate, but now, it can be noticed in almost any situation, that the modules are "delayed" whether you turn em on or off.

and no, it is NOT an issue on my side since ppl in alliance reported it also, and we are not in the same area, i'm in france, another one reported from UK, asia, US (indeed we have many of them) or switzerland.

it also seems more "laggy" in some systems, we do live in a small lowsec pocket, the main system is almost fine, but next door, it's to the point that we don't even run anoms or lvl4 anymore.

we already lost some ppl due to the exploration removal, and this is costing us ppl too, when chasing a target we could ccatch easy, like a drake, ppl won't even undock anymore, because "what"s the pooint he'll get away?".

can't blame them tbh....

after digging in my logs, i remember a few threads mentionning this, along with a post i made myself:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3377859#post3377859

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2506126#post2506126
for the latest, bug reports were send and all, never heard back, and can't follow since now, CCP's amazing bug report doesn't allow it.

in a nutshell, they are aware, for at least a year, and they don't seems to give a crap about it
Ricard Chastot
Snake Eye Production
#45 - 2014-02-06 19:47:11 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Porting from Python to something that can do multi-core work a la Red Hawk would basically be Eve 2.....they would be starting from the ground up with a completely different environment.


Python can do multi-core processing just fine if that's how you program with it.

Hello ladies (and dudes pretending to be ladies)! Say hello to New Eden's 2nd hottest Intaki! It's me. You can say hello to me. Hi.
Notorious Fellon
#46 - 2014-02-06 20:07:07 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
Notorious Fellon wrote:
Pew Terror wrote:


Doubling the calculation frequency is a linear progression... Pay more attention in class.


The resulting calculations are not. When you have to relay the information (say a change in a ships vector due to a double-click in space) you have to transmit that to every other ship on grid. It is precisely n^2 increased communication over the network.

Also; drop the attitude.


That's if you increase the number of pilots / entities on grid. Not if you double the frequency of calculation.

Doing the same calculations for one tick now, and then doing it again in .5s or in 5 minutes will use the same amount of processing power for the tick.



Excellent point. I clearly need less caffeine.

Crime, it is not a "career", it is a lifestyle.
Seras Victoria Egivand
Rockwell Automated Technical Systems
#47 - 2014-02-06 20:12:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Seras Victoria Egivand
Ricard Chastot wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Porting from Python to something that can do multi-core work a la Red Hawk would basically be Eve 2.....they would be starting from the ground up with a completely different environment.


Python can do multi-core processing just fine if that's how you program with it.


Python yes.... There still working largely with slack-less python. While in there server cluster they have anywhere from single core to multi core and multi cpu systems, Slack-less python runs everything single threaded... You can spawn micro threads inside of a slackless python environment which is what Tranqulity does but its still running off one core of any given system literately the system would burn out a single core of a processor without touching any other core. During Incarna they were and did Carbion engine and were working on carbon io to address slackless python issue's and allow the servers to run on true multi thread and multi processor hardware.. No idea how far they are into this when you take old code and re write it into newer eco system programming differences crop up stuff that used to work will have issues.

Even if they were to migrate to a new version of slack-less that supports Multi core multi threaded or PyPy you still have the issue alot of your code needs completely re written. Even if its the same software... Newer versions bring great features sometimes quality of life but older stuff does break.. That is the nature of programming.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#48 - 2014-02-06 20:13:06 UTC
Batelle wrote:
CCP has said this is impossible.
without a complete base code rewrite.

ftfy.

Nothing is impossible. It either isn't worth the effort/money or we simply don't know how to do it yet. In this case, not worth the effort to dedicate the entire staff for the year or so required to make it happen.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Seras Victoria Egivand
Rockwell Automated Technical Systems
#49 - 2014-02-06 20:15:50 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Batelle wrote:
CCP has said this is impossible.
without a complete base code rewrite.

ftfy.

Nothing is impossible. It either isn't worth the effort/money or we simply don't know how to do it yet. In this case, not worth the effort to dedicate the entire staff for the year or so required to make it happen.



its at large a software issue not so much hardware.
Ricard Chastot
Snake Eye Production
#50 - 2014-02-06 20:28:17 UTC
Seras Victoria Egivand wrote:
Ricard Chastot wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Porting from Python to something that can do multi-core work a la Red Hawk would basically be Eve 2.....they would be starting from the ground up with a completely different environment.


Python can do multi-core processing just fine if that's how you program with it.


Python yes.... There still working largely with slack-less python. While in there server cluster they have anywhere from single core to multi core and multi cpu systems, Slack-less python runs everything single threaded... You can spawn micro threads inside of a slackless python environment which is what Tranqulity does but its still running off one core of any given system literately the system would burn out a single core of a processor without touching any other core. During Incarna they were and did Carbion engine and were working on carbon io to address slackless python issue's and allow the servers to run on true multi thread and multi processor hardware.. No idea how far they are into this when you take old code and re write it into newer eco system programming differences crop up stuff that used to work will have issues.

Even if they were to migrate to a new version of slack-less that supports Multi core multi threaded or PyPy you still have the issue alot of your code needs completely re written. Even if its the same software... Newer versions bring great features sometimes quality of life but older stuff does break.. That is the nature of programming.


Agree that the code will need to be rewritten of course in order to use multiple cores. There's no getting around that. I don't have any experience with Stackless Python so I can't say how easy it would be to port the code to plain Python or something else that can handle multiple cores. I'd guess it's not easy at all though.

Hello ladies (and dudes pretending to be ladies)! Say hello to New Eden's 2nd hottest Intaki! It's me. You can say hello to me. Hi.
Seras Victoria Egivand
Rockwell Automated Technical Systems
#51 - 2014-02-06 20:35:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Seras Victoria Egivand
Just Google slack-less python. and read about it :P Fundamentally its actually really good.. CCP's issue is there still running largly versions that dont have multi cpu and multi threaded support.. (hardware level)
Onictus
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#52 - 2014-02-06 22:13:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Notorious Fellon wrote:


The resulting calculations are not. When you have to relay the information (say a change in a ships vector due to a double-click in space) you have to transmit that to every other ship on grid. It is precisely n^2 increased communication over the network.

Also; drop the attitude.



My point exactly.
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#53 - 2014-02-06 22:15:51 UTC
The answer to the thread title is ugly. Bugs would be introduced, performance would degrade, for a marginal improvement that only insta-locking legions and thrashers would notice.
Emissary Bartoque
Doomheim
#54 - 2014-02-06 22:46:48 UTC
Seras Victoria Egivand wrote:
Just Google slack-less python. and read about it :P Fundamentally its actually really good.. CCP's issue is there still running largly versions that dont have multi cpu and multi threaded support.. (hardware level)


It is stack less not slack less...
Jandice Ymladris
Aurora Arcology
#55 - 2014-02-06 23:10:23 UTC
Cheers for all the informative replies! Learned alot from it.

Providing a new home for refugees in the Aurora Arcology
Haraldhardrade
Pax Amarr
#56 - 2014-02-06 23:36:03 UTC
Jandice Ymladris wrote:
Cheers for all the informative replies! Learned alot from it.



Same here, great thread!




So when will we get EVE 2? They have to make it sooner or later, a decade per seems reasonable.
Crakachunky
Elite Mining Services
#57 - 2014-02-06 23:51:56 UTC
Graphene processors are the next big thing, really efficient use of electrons allowing smaller manufacturing process and puts a massive dent in heat problems allows stupid high processor speeds, I assume ccp are waiting for those
Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2014-02-06 23:58:56 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
The answer to the thread title is ugly. Bugs would be introduced, performance would degrade, for a marginal improvement that only insta-locking legions and thrashers would notice.


Yes an "instalock" Thrasher setup right will have you waiting a tick sometimes.
Seras Victoria Egivand
Rockwell Automated Technical Systems
#59 - 2014-02-07 00:47:34 UTC
Emissary Bartoque wrote:
Seras Victoria Egivand wrote:
Just Google slack-less python. and read about it :P Fundamentally its actually really good.. CCP's issue is there still running largly versions that dont have multi cpu and multi threaded support.. (hardware level)


It is stack less not slack less...



sorry stupid auto correct
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
New Eden Tech Support
#60 - 2014-02-10 12:25:27 UTC
I noticed that when my modules were preheated the 1tick-delay was not noticeable at all ... could this be because all of the input was processed at the same time rather than getting target lock and then applying module effect?

... I'm not really sure of the right way to word that ^ ...

Thank me later :D