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Gallente-Caldari Relations, Are They Improving?

First post
Author
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#321 - 2014-02-06 02:37:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Simon Louvaki
Lyka Gridherst wrote:


Doctor Gridherst.
I'm not sure that modern interpretations would allow succession. I'll leave that to the legal scholars to tackle. The point is, though, they broke the Federal Charter while still a member of the Federation. They had created outside colonies and denied their people the franchise (which explains why the Caldari aligned with the Amarr so quickly). Then, in response to a blockade-where no shots were fired, the Caldari destroyed Nouvelle Rouvenor.


Ms. Gridherst.

I will politely afford you the honorific title of Doctor when you earn my respect. Until then, I will refer to you in the neutral Ms. and you will demand nothing of me, nor I you, until the appropriate time reveals itself.

Now, before beginning my life as an Empyrian I studied Corporate Law and Political Science at the School of Applied Knowledge. Later, graduating to begin my carrier as a Lawyer and Mediator for the Caldari Business Tribunal. As Legal Scholar I offer you following considerations.

First off: If there is no precedent, how can one declare the legality of a matter without considerable debate and consideration? Prior to the separation of the Caldari from the Gallente Federation there had been no other case of succession, and thus there could be no judgment on its supposed illegality. To simply put, our Ancestors didn't 'break' any pact, they left just as they joined.

Unless clearly stated, one party who willfully enters and agreement with another has every right to back out of that agreement unless some stipulation prevents them from doing so. What the Federation was left with was a contract with a loophole. I would argue this is the case in terms of the separation of the Caldari State from the Federation. The Gallente Federation was created willingly by many member nations of the Federal planetary bodies, it stands to reason that if one willingly engages in such a Union then one should willingly be able to leave said Union, especially given the Federations championship of the values of Freedom.

Secondly, on the matter of 'secret colonies': As I mentioned just short while ago, the Colonial assets discovered by Gallente explorers were not that of any signatory 'member nation' of the Federal Charter. They were founded, owned, and operated by secular corporate entities operated by corporate employees. The Caldari Senators and many Intaki Senators at the time argued this same case. I believe there was quite a hoobla when your current President Jacus Roden refused to allow his business to be nationalized wasn't there? To put it plainly, that was exactly what the Federation was demanding at the time of these colonies discovery; to place those assets under Federal jurisdiction.

Had this been one of Caldari Prime's member nations secretly funding and colonizing planets it would have been a different story. Corporations, however, are not held under the same stipulations as the Federation charter, because at that time they weren't a separate nations or even a member. They were Corporate assets.

Thirdly: The Federation sent ships to blockade the Homeworld of one of their signatory member, who was still apart of the Federation at the time. The 'Caldari' didn't destroy Nouvelle Rouvenor, the Templus Draganarus (Correction from Provists as Ive grown so accustom to using the two inyerchangably), a known and condemned terrorist organizations at the time did. Should I now declare that Noir represented the Federation or the Gallente as a whole and that Malkkan was an act of war rather than the act of a rouge mad man? Of course not, that only sullies what was a tragedy of momentous loss in both those cases.

If you believe in freedom and self determination, then there is no argument on whether our people had the right to leave the Federation.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#322 - 2014-02-06 02:43:10 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
None of us will find a lasting peace until we hold the others' view.

Is a little faith and understanding really all that much to ask of you?

Do you really need the answer to that question? Straight

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#323 - 2014-02-06 03:33:28 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:


Don't forget the strawman argument that we deny our citizens the franchise, when in fact all we do is make them earn it so that they have a stake in the decisions they help make.



Federalists often suffer from the hubris in the creation of the narratives they tell themselves that they are the only free people in the cluster which appears to lead them to think that to reject democracy is to reject choice or independent thought. The inability to reconcile such a narrative with history and contrary evidence is much like a scientist trying desperately to deny evidence in order to fit a hypothesis. Such a path denies rationality and everything might as well be the product of magic or supernatural agents according to political thought constructed as such.

In that spirit I can only surmise that the real reason the Caldari seceded is because Deteis Executives are possessed of mystical mind control powers that Civire are particularly susceptible to and that is why they chose the slavery of the State instead of the glorious freedom and liberty of the Federation.

Because that's about what the thoughts of Ms. Gridherst really amount to for myself.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#324 - 2014-02-06 03:54:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
Ms. Gridherst, would your alleged "doctorate" happen to be in the reputable field of bullshit?

Anyway, the Caldari should not have violated Federation charter, and the Federation should of witheld military force until necessary.

Even still, pointing fingers to decide who started the war is redundant as both sides eliminated their connection to the warring factions. The Federation put several Ultra Nationalists on trial for war crimes and the State declared the Tempelis Dragnaurs a terrorist organization. There are many things to debate on the Gallente-Caldari war, but the outbreak is not one of them.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#325 - 2014-02-06 04:21:22 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Ms. Gridherst, would your alleged "doctorate" happen to be in the reputable field of bullshit?

Anyway, the Caldari should not have violated Federation charter, and the Federation should of witheld military force until necessary.

Even still, pointing fingers to decide who started the war is redundant as both sides eliminated their connection to the warring factions. The Federation put several Ultra Nationalists on trial for war crimes and the State declared the Tempelis Dragnaurs a terrorist organization. There are many things to debate on the Gallente-Caldari war, but the outbreak is not one of them.

Fred, rikaato. Seriously.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117

Erys Charantes
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#326 - 2014-02-06 04:38:16 UTC
So let me get this right...

A Sebiestor Federal citizen teaching in the Republic is espousing the virtues of the Federation by ignoring all wrongs and arguments and accusing the State of breaking from a government they never wanted as if it were a crime? And demands the "return" of their own planet due to a two hundred year old conflict that her ancestors weren't even relevant to?

A nationalist, racist, close minded Minmatar with Federal citizenship preaching from the Republic University?...

Pardon me while I die laughing.

Addendum; The UoC really seems to be slipping lately. Thought as We Want You to Think 101 certainly wasn't a requirement when I attended.
Hamish Grayson
#327 - 2014-02-06 12:59:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Hamish Grayson
James Syagrius wrote:
[quote=Jace Sarice]

Very Caldari of you, a discussion about the relationship between the Federation and the State. All you Federals just but out. Yep very Caldari.



That is because the Federation, and I do make a distinction between the Federation and the ethnic Gallente who are it's primary victims, is an infection attacking the body of humanity. You quarantine and isolate your self from a disease. You do not sit down an have a dialogue with it just because it feels that it's unfair that you are healthy and strong and it has no new fresh hosts to propagate it's self in.
Hamish Grayson
#328 - 2014-02-06 13:14:54 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:

If you thought they were legal, why did you hid them?



They were legal under Federal law, as was privacy. We left because of the illegal demands the Senate made upon their discovery.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#329 - 2014-02-06 16:36:08 UTC
Hamish Grayson wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:

If you thought they were legal, why did you hid them?



They were legal under Federal law, as was privacy. We left because of the illegal demands the Senate made upon their discovery.


They were legal, however under a very specific condition. The installations were illegal if the State built them. However, they were not illegal if the corporations built them, which they did.

However, the State very well knew how the Federation would react if discovered. Communication failures between both countries can be attributed to both sides.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#330 - 2014-02-06 16:50:23 UTC
Saya Ishikari wrote:

Fred, rikaato. Seriously.


Would you mind repeating that in Gallentean? My translator seems to be having trouble with that second word.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#331 - 2014-02-06 17:12:11 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Hamish Grayson wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:

If you thought they were legal, why did you hid them?



They were legal under Federal law, as was privacy. We left because of the illegal demands the Senate made upon their discovery.


They were legal, however under a very specific condition. The installations were illegal if the State built them. However, they were not illegal if the corporations built them, which they did.

However, the State very well knew how the Federation would react if discovered. Communication failures between both countries can be attributed to both sides.


Things were so much more complicated then.

There was no State and the Caldari were still divided among Nation States on Caldari Prime.

While the first Okusaikas had already assumed more power and control than any of the planetary governments, there was no 'State' to consider the Federations reaction to the inevitable discovery of those colonies.

I can't honestly imagine any of the original CEO's at the time could have truly believed that they could have maintained those colonial worlds in secrecy forever. Eventually they would have had to been revealed to the Federation, and had it happened on their own time, perhaps things would have been different.

Of course we will never know what could have been. Our people were heading towards some form of conflict long before the discovery of those hidden corporate assets.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb

Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#332 - 2014-02-07 00:00:25 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Saya Ishikari wrote:

Fred, rikaato. Seriously.


Would you mind repeating that in Gallentean? My translator seems to be having trouble with that second word.

Merci, monsiour. (Rikaato means 'thank you')

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#333 - 2014-02-07 03:28:26 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Hamish Grayson wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:

If you thought they were legal, why did you hid them?



They were legal under Federal law, as was privacy. We left because of the illegal demands the Senate made upon their discovery.


They were legal, however under a very specific condition. The installations were illegal if the State built them. However, they were not illegal if the corporations built them, which they did.

However, the State very well knew how the Federation would react if discovered. Communication failures between both countries can be attributed to both sides.


Things were so much more complicated then.

There was no State and the Caldari were still divided among Nation States on Caldari Prime.

While the first Okusaikas had already assumed more power and control than any of the planetary governments, there was no 'State' to consider the Federations reaction to the inevitable discovery of those colonies.

I can't honestly imagine any of the original CEO's at the time could have truly believed that they could have maintained those colonial worlds in secrecy forever. Eventually they would have had to been revealed to the Federation, and had it happened on their own time, perhaps things would have been different.

Of course we will never know what could have been. Our people were heading towards some form of conflict long before the discovery of those hidden corporate assets.


Forgive me for my inaccuracies regarding Caldari unity. I agree things probably would have gone better if the CEOs were able to reveal these facilities before the the Federation discovered them. However, I still feel that the situation could of been avoided if these corporations used legal ways to achieve their goals or attempted to lessen or remove the restrictions. It would of been difficult with Ultra-Nationalist in power, but it could be done.

It is true that we were heading towards conflict before this debacle, but it's what broke the camels back

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#334 - 2014-02-07 03:37:34 UTC
Saya Ishikari wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Saya Ishikari wrote:

Fred, rikaato. Seriously.


Would you mind repeating that in Gallentean? My translator seems to be having trouble with that second word.

Merci, monsiour. (Rikaato means 'thank you')


Ah I see! I really should stop relying on my Neocom and translation implants and actually learn a language but I digress. You're very welcome. I really don't like to lash out at people but when someone like Ms. Gridherst acts like a racist, egotistical, jackass, I tend to get slightly irritable.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Lyka Gridherst
Doomheim
#335 - 2014-02-07 21:13:38 UTC
I proffer the following polls:
Ramanujan poll taken 05.01YC116-08.01YC116. Luminaire, excluding Caldari Prime:
Question: Do you support the actions taken by the Federation Navy regarding the "illegal breaches of the Caldari Border between the dates of October 6, YC110 and March 10, YC115?"
57% approved
31% disapproved
12% neutral/no opinion
Question: Should the Federation continue the efforts of Operation Highlander and completely retake Caldari Prime?
59% approved
27% disapproved
14% neutral/no opinion
Question: Does the Caldari State have a legitimate sovereign claim to Caldari Prime?
63% no
33% yes
4% neutral/no opinion

95% confidence level; +/- 3.5%
Random sample based on coms combination

L'Indépendant Newspaper poll taken 10.10YC115-18.10YC115. Federation wide:
Question: Do you approve of Operation Highlander, the military effort to retake Caldari Prime which occurred in 03 last year?
69% yes
25% no
6% neutral/no opinion
Does the Caldari State have a right to place warships in orbit above Caldari Prime?
85% No
12% Yes
3% neutral/no opinion

95% confidence level; +/-5%
50% random sample based on coms combination; 50% based on electronic post addresses. Stratified by system population.

Public Polling, Inc. taken 25.04YC115-30.04YC115 Federation wide:
Preface: Recently the Federation engaged in military actions to retake Caldari Prime. Operation Highlander was a two pronged effort against the Caldari in space and on the ground. In space, the Federation forces destroyed the Caldari titan. They were unsuccessful in liberating the planet completely.
Please rate whether you strongly agree, agree, are neutral, disagree or strongly disagree with the following statements:
"It was the right thing for the Federation to do."
32% strongly agree
37% agree
11% neutral
14% disagree
5% strongly disagree
"The Federation should attack again and liberate the surface of Caldari Prime."
23% strongly agree
38% agree
19% neutral
11% disagree
8% strongly disagree

95% confidence level; +/-5.5%
75% random sample based on coms combination; 25% based on electronic post addresses. Stratified by system population.

Disclosure: I have been a paid consultant for Public Polling, Inc.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#336 - 2014-02-07 21:33:44 UTC
Ms Gridherst,

That a thing is publicly desired does not make it wise to pursue.

Your excellent findings are more indicative of a successful marketing campaign on behalf of a benefactor of war than are they indicative of a correct course to take.

My compliments on your rigour!

- S
Lyka Gridherst
Doomheim
#337 - 2014-02-07 21:39:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyka Gridherst
Scherezad wrote:
Ms Gridherst,

That a thing is publicly desired does not make it wise to pursue.

Your excellent findings are more indicative of a successful marketing campaign on behalf of a benefactor of war than are they indicative of a correct course to take.

My compliments on your rigour!

- S

The question was regarding Caldari/Gallente relations. The Federation citizenry does not support the State's claims regarding Caldari Prime. Therefore, I assert that the relations are tepid.

Post Script: just because there is a cluster wide conflagration going on does not mean things have to get nasty. Doctor Gridherst, if you please.
Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#338 - 2014-02-07 21:42:46 UTC
Oh lord...titles again...

-Eran
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#339 - 2014-02-07 21:57:32 UTC
Lyka Gridherst wrote:
The question was regarding Caldari/Gallente relations. The Federation citizenry does not support the State's claims regarding Caldari Prime. Therefore, I assert that the relations are tepid.

Post Script: just because there is a cluster wide conflagration going on does not mean things have to get nasty. Doctor Gridherst, if you please.


My apologies, Doctor. My place of employ discourages the use of titles in everything but formal communication. I'm simply out of practice, and apologize for the unintended slight.

Tepid is a fine enough word to describe the relationship - neither cold nor hot, but something that can be pushed in either direction. It's my hope that we can improve things, and the excellent work by Ishukone Corporation has already made strides in that direction.

- Dr. Scherezad (D. Sc, Mathematics, SAK)
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#340 - 2014-02-07 22:17:54 UTC
Lyka Gridherst wrote:
Scherezad wrote:
Ms Gridherst,

That a thing is publicly desired does not make it wise to pursue.

Your excellent findings are more indicative of a successful marketing campaign on behalf of a benefactor of war than are they indicative of a correct course to take.

My compliments on your rigour!

- S

The question was regarding Caldari/Gallente relations. The Federation citizenry does not support the State's claims regarding Caldari Prime. Therefore, I assert that the relations are tepid.

Post Script: just because there is a cluster wide conflagration going on does not mean things have to get nasty. Doctor Gridherst, if you please.

You shouldn't ever trust polls, Lyka. Especially those having to do with goverment affairs.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.