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[Rubicon 1.3] Drone Assist change

First post First post First post
Author
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#261 - 2014-02-06 16:37:27 UTC
Kisey wrote:
Good change. PVP should require more individual or organizational skill, not less.



yes this should be the goal for pvp on any level. more individual options eq more dynamic and unpredictable fights and more general fun.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#262 - 2014-02-06 16:37:46 UTC
Venetian Tar wrote:
Desert Ice78 wrote:
Nice, the goon whining wins again. Good job there Rise and Fozzie, but could you even TRY to make an effort not to be so obvious?


If this were true, would it not have been nerfed while we were getting "murderzoned" before B-R?

And your going to get murderzoned after B-R as well, or until your Dev's ride to your rescue.

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#263 - 2014-02-06 16:38:19 UTC
Implying Implications wrote:
All this does is remove the afk part of drone based fleets. I don't think much will change.



Affects the finger of god effect.

All DPS landing at the same time goes away, unless your multiple shot callers (1 per 5 to 7 carriers, 1 per 10 other drone boats)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Dancin Queen
Doomheim
#264 - 2014-02-06 16:38:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Dancin Queen
NM
sennett
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#265 - 2014-02-06 16:38:43 UTC
so basically you're nerfing the carriers primary weapon, the cap should depend on the ship type,
a whole squad of domis can assign to one squad commander but you need 2x more for the carriers?
why not cap carriers to be the same, with a 100 cap for carriers and 50 for domis,
or people can only assign drones to their squad commander, nothing higher.
and for all GSF crying, remember carriers are 1.1 bil for the hull not 170 mnil, they SHOULD be better
Max50
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#266 - 2014-02-06 16:39:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Max50
Removal of drones from supercarriers happened mostly because of supercarrier sentry blobs. Now that the issue is "fixed", is it possible to return those jumping guardians to their previous state?

I can understand that a supercarrier with 10k drones isnt desired for big fleet fights but a supercarrier able to carry let's say 40 of each drone type isn't affecting a blob fight at all.

But on the other hand it gives a good tool for those few willing to use those ships outside of the safety of a big blob (aka "solo").

It will be interesting to see these ships have the abillity to carry let's say 1000m3 of any kind of drones except bombers and fighters (perhaps a new smaller drone bay).
Venetian Tar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#267 - 2014-02-06 16:40:20 UTC
Desert Ice78 wrote:
Venetian Tar wrote:
Desert Ice78 wrote:
Nice, the goon whining wins again. Good job there Rise and Fozzie, but could you even TRY to make an effort not to be so obvious?


If this were true, would it not have been nerfed while we were getting "murderzoned" before B-R?

And your going to get murderzoned after B-R as well, or until your Dev's ride to your rescue.


Your alliance name isn't very accurate for your manner of communication. Why, good sir, are you so serious?

I don't hate you, I'm just not necessarily excited about your existance.

Fehz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#268 - 2014-02-06 16:40:22 UTC
So what you're telling me is that I can't go to sleep for a couple hours during fleet fights anymore? Ugh
Zack1023
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#269 - 2014-02-06 16:41:03 UTC
"Drones, for the time being, are the most taxing weapon system for our hardware, which means overall play experience has suffered some because of the popularity of sentry doctrines."

Isnt this reasoning kinda poor. do sentries cause more load then light/med/heavy drones? there will always be drones on the battlefield. just because using a drone assist cap to try to encourage more fleet doctrine diversity doesnt mean there will be less drones.

There should also be a dynamic to the drone assist cap. Larger/advanced ships should have better command and control systems to handle the load. so a frigate could have 10 drones assisted, but a battlecruiser 25, battleship 50, a carrier/command ship 75
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#270 - 2014-02-06 16:41:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Speedkermit Damo
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello, some news:

Coming soon, in a Rubicon point release, we are planning to add a hard cap to the number of drones that can be assisted to a single player. Currently, we are planning to set that cap at 50.

As most of you surely know by now, drone assist has been a very hot topic over the last 6 or so months. Archons began showing the power of sentry doctrines before that, and the addition of tracking and optimal bonuses for drones on the Ishtar and Dominix catapulted this philosophy into the forefront of fleet warfare. The resulting meta is causing two major problems that we hope to address through this change.

  • We feel that drone assist, at a large scale, leads to passive gameplay that most players do not enjoy. Assist places too much control in the hands of a single person and leaves the majority of the fleet with little to do. note: we spent a lot of time considering the value in delegation of ship systems and navigation overall (why not have assisted turrets? why have fleet warp? etc) and while this discussion will likely continue, we feel it depends heavily on the amount of delegation taking place. Amount might refer to the time something is delegated or the importance of the system being delegated (is it a primary system or a secondary one). Moral of the story: while some cases of drone assist can be fun, large fleets based on assist are not.

  • Drones, for the time being, are the most taxing weapon system for our hardware, which means overall play experience has suffered some because of the popularity of sentry doctrines.

  • We are making this change primarily to address the first point, but also hope to have a positive effect on performance by allowing more room for other weapon systems in the fleet meta.

    Why a flat cap?

    We believe a flat cap will:

  • Limit large scale assist substantially
  • Leave room for smaller scale assisting (there are several use-cases for assist that we wanted to preserve, such as incursion drone managers)
  • Be very easy to communicate to players
  • Affect carriers more heavily than sub-caps (because they can field 10 drones per ship rather than 5)

  • This solution meets each of these points in a more effective way than any others we considered.

    Why 50?

    To arrive at 50 we began by starting at complete removal of assist, and worked our way back up until we had caught all the use-cases for assist that we didn't want to impact negatively. That included frigates on gates trying to catch cloakers, small fleets trying to use assist to avoid e-war, logistics pilots who are too busy to manage their drones, and most importantly, incursioners. We believe 50 will leave all these uses unharmed while also heavily discouraging large fleet use. If it turns out that fleets are still able to rely on assist easily at 50 (which we feel is unlikely) we can and will make further adjustments.

    Before I go, I want to say that we've been looking at this for some time now. We've watched the discussion in the community evolve and also kept a close eye on TQ behavior. We began discussing this change with the CSM via internal forums just prior to the summit, and then spent significant time discussing it in person with them during the summit. Their feedback was valuable, as always, and gives us confidence that this is a good direction.

    As always, leave your feedback and we will do our best to answer any questions.


    Goons shout "Jump!"

    CCP asks "How High?"

    Edit, Actually drone assist was a bit crap really, and I hated flying in sentry drone doctrine fleets, so probably a decent change. Be even better if nearly every ship in Eve didn't now carry drones.

    Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

    MeBiatch
    GRR GOONS
    #271 - 2014-02-06 16:41:58 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
    HVAC Repairman wrote:
    yes lets ignore conventional logic and reason to introduce a bad mechanic. 2008 era ccp would probably hire you as a game designer


    if 2k drones shooting one frig is bad then so to should be 2k ships which could be upwards of 16000 turrets.

    there is only so much room on a ship for the projectile to hit.

    at a certain point any more damage comming in should be moot.

    the bad mechanic was introduced in 2003 when the game was released without deminishing returns for blobing... though at the time CCP more then likely thought they would never see 4k battles.

    There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

    Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

    Motoko Snow
    Friends with the Benedicts
    #272 - 2014-02-06 16:42:30 UTC
    Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
    What is so sad in this whole mess is the fact that no speaks about.
    Sentry drones were unloved, and unchanged, for years.
    People used heavies.
    No one cared about drone command.

    Then along came fozzie who wiped out heavies in missions with the AI changes.
    This still did not affect sentries or heavies in PvP.
    Then he and his new sidekick went full-on , how do I say it politely, "special needs", and with their alterations to the Domi and Ishtar turned them into death machines from insane distances, and null sec tacticians took full advantage of it.
    Factor in the ability of many more people to be on-grid, courtesy of CCP's efforts, and we ended up with the cluster-**** we have today.

    Now, we see sentry drones ruined for PvE, and highly restrictive limits on drone command.

    Which all could have been avoided by addressing the range bonuses on the Ishtar and Domi, after it was demonstrated that the null sec groups were exploiting the design to ridiculous levels.

    But nope, someone's hubris and inability to acknowledge they have created a huge mess with their past decisions and alter the past decisions, well, has resulted with things like this announcement and last weeks Omni accouncement.

    One person's screwup has huge implications on the entire game, including people that were never part of the exploitation of the Domi and Ishtar fleets in null sec.

    Bravo.



    Thank you for following through, for a second there I almost thought you weren't going to rage about this. But, thankfully, to my satisfaction I get to read yet another delicious tears post from you about how every change in this game is aimed to hurt you personally and benefit nullsec. Bravo.
    Max50
    Sniggerdly
    Pandemic Legion
    #273 - 2014-02-06 16:42:38 UTC
    Fehz wrote:
    So what you're telling me is that I can't go to sleep for a couple hours during fleet fights anymore? Ugh



    No, you can still go to sleep or shoot any other target than the one broadcasted. Chanses are a few hundred of the rest of the 2k blob will.
    Mournful Conciousness
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #274 - 2014-02-06 16:42:48 UTC
    Conversation with a drone

    Before this change
    Me: drone, see that guy? Shoot what he shoots at.
    Drone: OK chief!


    After this change
    Me: drone, see that guy? Shoot what he shoots at
    Drone: I can't
    Me: why not?
    Drone: Because I have used my not inconsiderable sensor array to scan all ships and drones in the vicinity. By observing the behaviour of 5000 drones and correlating it with the observed behaviour of 1000 ships (quite a considerable computational feat for a humble combat drone if I may say so), I have deduced that 50 other drones are shooting at what that guy shoots at.
    Me: so? I don't care about that. Shoot his target anyway.
    Drone: no can do. My programming specifically includes this check. For no apparent reason that I can compute.
    Me: You're getting reprogrammed the moment we get home!


    What it should have been
    Me: drone, see that guy? Shoot what he shoots at
    Drone: Master, I serve you and you alone. I will shoot only at targets to which you specifically direct me.
    Me: ok then. Shoot that guy!
    Drone: I'm a firin' mah lazorz!!!

    Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

    Jamir Von Lietuva
    Nameless Minions
    GaNg BaNg TeAm
    #275 - 2014-02-06 16:44:29 UTC
    rip in piece
    Effort Nullifyer
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #276 - 2014-02-06 16:44:34 UTC
    I think that it was better first to make turrets assistable. It looks fair and there wouldn't be no whine from N3 and other mass drone users. It is easily predicted that assistable turrets could swipe drone formats away as well (easily changed alpha with sufficient numbers does wonders). And only after that both turret and drone assist should be wiped away from the game totally. I think that going way to automated combat will lead us to automatic distribution of points, electronics, warp outs after 30% of armor etc. Indeed that is how should have worked command ships in real. It looks quite logical for futuristical space combat but it is not good for gameplay.
    Leigh Akiga
    Kuhri Innovations
    #277 - 2014-02-06 16:45:31 UTC
    I am curious what esteemed CSM member and the self-styled Da Vinci of ship fitting Progodlegend- who infamously told his alliance that the sentry drone was victory and life, feels about these changes.
    Harvey James
    The Sengoku Legacy
    #278 - 2014-02-06 16:45:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
    Mournful Conciousness wrote:
    Conversation with a drone

    Before this change
    Me: drone, see that guy? Shoot what he shoots at.
    Drone: OK chief!


    After this change
    Me: drone, see that guy? Shoot what he shoots at
    Drone: I can't
    Me: why not?
    Drone: Because I have used my not inconsiderable sensor array to scan all ships and drones in the vicinity. By observing the behaviour of 5000 drones and correlating it with the observed behaviour of 1000 ships (quite a considerable computational feat for a humble combat drone if I may say so), I have deduced that 50 other drones are shooting at what that guy shoots at.
    Me: so? I don't care about that. Shoot his target anyway.
    Drone: no can do. My programming specifically includes this check. For no apparent reason that I can compute.
    Me: You're getting reprogrammed the moment we get home!


    What it should have been
    Me: drone, see that guy? Shoot what he shoots at
    Drone: Master, I serve you and you alone. I will shoot only at targets to which you specifically direct me.
    Me: ok then. Shoot that guy!
    Drone: I'm a firin' mah lazorz!!!


    awesome post!!!

    kind of makes this thread seem ludicrous .. either remove drone assist or leave it as it is ..

    T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

    ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

    Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

    Alexander the Great
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #279 - 2014-02-06 16:47:24 UTC
    Something like squad assist will still work after this change, so drones will remain quite popular in large fleets. And carriers are too good at tank and navigation to stop using them only because of assist nerf.

    You should concentrate more on performance issues. Just lower the number of drones per ship to say 2-3 on subcaps and 4-5 on carriers and balance their damage and EHP.
    Shonion
    FREE GATES
    #280 - 2014-02-06 16:49:13 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Hello, some news:


    Dear Rise,

    Riot games waits you for both of our pleasure.

    Brgds