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Discussion - The Fall of Battlecruisers ?

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Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#61 - 2014-02-06 11:36:07 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
The "unique role" they have is that they can take a hit, dish it out, be decently fast, good insurance and require relatively low SP. A Cane will still curb stomp most HACS if you let it and that means people who can't fly T2/T3 or don't want to commit that amount of uninsurable ship cost have an option.

Seriously, "T1 sucks because T2" is dumb logic.



No one in its sane mind insures ships in eve anymore.. not since the insurance changes years ago.

Insurance is amechanic that coudl be removed and no one would miss it.



It seems you're basing your overall statements on very specific and specialised personal situations, there's a word for that.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#62 - 2014-02-06 12:21:09 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
The "unique role" they have is that they can take a hit, dish it out, be decently fast, good insurance and require relatively low SP. A Cane will still curb stomp most HACS if you let it and that means people who can't fly T2/T3 or don't want to commit that amount of uninsurable ship cost have an option.

Seriously, "T1 sucks because T2" is dumb logic.



No one in its sane mind insures ships in eve anymore.. not since the insurance changes years ago.

Insurance is amechanic that coudl be removed and no one would miss it.



It seems you're basing your overall statements on very specific and specialised personal situations, there's a word for that.


And there is also a word, for someone that has no PvP experience, posting in a PvP thread.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#63 - 2014-02-06 12:35:29 UTC
Yes I clearly don't know what I'm talking about.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#64 - 2014-02-06 13:01:27 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Yes I clearly don't know what I'm talking about.


Actually by looking at your posts in this thread, that is already self evident.

But admitting that you are clueless, is the first step. So I am glad that we have reached that hurdle at least.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#65 - 2014-02-06 13:10:42 UTC
Chessur wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Yes I clearly don't know what I'm talking about.


Actually by looking at your posts in this thread, that is already self evident.

But admitting that you are clueless, is the first step. So I am glad that we have reached that hurdle at least.


Unlike many of the aspie/autistic/ignorant folks who play&post I'm actually capable of seeing things not only from my own perspective but also from someone else's. A BC is FINE for ppl on lowish SP wo don't want or can't commit expensive ships to pvp, simply because they don't have the experience, isk or organisation.

It's VERY easy for people who do have experience, SP and isk with gang links, RR and whatnot beating up **** fit newbies to state "lol BC has no role yo" but what they forget to add is "in my situation". People with a decently high IQ would probably realise this.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#66 - 2014-02-06 13:28:52 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Chessur wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Yes I clearly don't know what I'm talking about.


Actually by looking at your posts in this thread, that is already self evident.

But admitting that you are clueless, is the first step. So I am glad that we have reached that hurdle at least.


Unlike many of the aspie/autistic/ignorant folks who play&post I'm actually capable of seeing things not only from my own perspective but also from someone else's. A BC is FINE for ppl on lowish SP wo don't want or can't commit expensive ships to pvp, simply because they don't have the experience, isk or organisation.

It's VERY easy for people who do have experience, SP and isk with gang links, RR and whatnot beating up **** fit newbies to state "lol BC has no role yo" but what they forget to add is "in my situation". People with a decently high IQ would probably realise this.


If you don't want or can't commit expensive ships to PvP, why the hell would you buy a BC? T1 cruisers / navy cruisers are much butter. Same with the dictors. Last time I checked, those ships are much cheaper. So please stop trying to mislead all of the new players in eve. If you are new to the game, don't skill into a BC- just like you shouldn't skill into a BS.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2014-02-06 13:32:59 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
The "unique role" they have is that they can take a hit, dish it out, be decently fast, good insurance and require relatively low SP. A Cane will still curb stomp most HACS if you let it and that means people who can't fly T2/T3 or don't want to commit that amount of uninsurable ship cost have an option.

Seriously, "T1 sucks because T2" is dumb logic.



No one in its sane mind insures ships in eve anymore.. not since the insurance changes years ago.

Insurance is amechanic that coudl be removed and no one would miss it.



It seems you're basing your overall statements on very specific and specialised personal situations, there's a word for that.



Superiority?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#68 - 2014-02-06 13:36:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Gregor Parud wrote:
Chessur wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Yes I clearly don't know what I'm talking about.


Actually by looking at your posts in this thread, that is already self evident.

But admitting that you are clueless, is the first step. So I am glad that we have reached that hurdle at least.


Unlike many of the aspie/autistic/ignorant folks who play&post I'm actually capable of seeing things not only from my own perspective but also from someone else's. A BC is FINE for ppl on lowish SP wo don't want or can't commit expensive ships to pvp, simply because they don't have the experience, isk or organisation.

It's VERY easy for people who do have experience, SP and isk with gang links, RR and whatnot beating up **** fit newbies to state "lol BC has no role yo" but what they forget to add is "in my situation". People with a decently high IQ would probably realise this.



The game is balanced around the assumption of perfect skills for the ship. Doing it any other way would be too difficult for the game designers.

Therefore whenever someone discuss ship balance, they are discussing under the assumption of perfect or near perfect ship skills.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#69 - 2014-02-06 13:38:42 UTC
Steph Livingston wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
While i think CCP isn't quite as consistent with their speeds as they should be.

Stats wise BC's are mostly fine.. Yes they are a niche ships.. they are like cruiser dessies.


Ok, quick question for you... what niche do you think BCs occupy?


Capable of (not guarenteed to) killing anything which can catch them and keep away from anything which can kill them.

The on-grid mobility of some of the BS is probably nibbling a little too much out of the latter part, frigates are probably slightly more of a threat to BCs than they ought to be (single frigates, wolf packs should indeed be dangerous).
The warp speed changes perhaps didn't sufficiently represent the mobility which BCs should have but it's better to play changes of that scale safe rather than have to cope with seriously overpowered choices.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2014-02-06 13:38:59 UTC
Chessur wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Chessur wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Yes I clearly don't know what I'm talking about.


Actually by looking at your posts in this thread, that is already self evident.

But admitting that you are clueless, is the first step. So I am glad that we have reached that hurdle at least.


Unlike many of the aspie/autistic/ignorant folks who play&post I'm actually capable of seeing things not only from my own perspective but also from someone else's. A BC is FINE for ppl on lowish SP wo don't want or can't commit expensive ships to pvp, simply because they don't have the experience, isk or organisation.

It's VERY easy for people who do have experience, SP and isk with gang links, RR and whatnot beating up **** fit newbies to state "lol BC has no role yo" but what they forget to add is "in my situation". People with a decently high IQ would probably realise this.


If you don't want or can't commit expensive ships to PvP, why the hell would you buy a BC? T1 cruisers / navy cruisers are much butter. Same with the dictors. Last time I checked, those ships are much cheaper. So please stop trying to mislead all of the new players in eve. If you are new to the game, don't skill into a BC- just like you shouldn't skill into a BS.



THAT! For pvp players should first get into cruiser V before going up in size. For PVE, BC are acceptable to run level 3 mission more easily when in need of that early isk or for ratting in null sec.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2014-02-06 13:43:16 UTC
Jacob Holland wrote:
Steph Livingston wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
While i think CCP isn't quite as consistent with their speeds as they should be.

Stats wise BC's are mostly fine.. Yes they are a niche ships.. they are like cruiser dessies.


Ok, quick question for you... what niche do you think BCs occupy?


Capable of (not guarenteed to) killing anything which can catch them and keep away from anything which can kill them.

The on-grid mobility of some of the BS is probably nibbling a little too much out of the latter part, frigates are probably slightly more of a threat to BCs than they ought to be (single frigates, wolf packs should indeed be dangerous).
The warp speed changes perhaps didn't sufficiently represent the mobility which BCs should have but it's better to play changes of that scale safe rather than have to cope with seriously overpowered choices.



That is what they SHOULD be able to. But the problem is that they are not like that. T2, pirate and Faction cruisers are usually too much for BC. And some BC have problems against some cruisers.



Also that same niche can be read as.. anything they can kill.. is faster .. so can decide to not fight the BC. And anything they can catch... is too strong for them to tackle. Solo BC cannot kill anything that knows what its doing and its not another BC.

That ends with the conclusion that BC are HORRIBLE for SOLO (or near solo) PVP and require other ships in group to cover this issue. The problem is that when you add cruisers to your gang.. they do not like to wait for BC while traveling.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#72 - 2014-02-06 13:55:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Chessur wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Chessur wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Yes I clearly don't know what I'm talking about.


Actually by looking at your posts in this thread, that is already self evident.

But admitting that you are clueless, is the first step. So I am glad that we have reached that hurdle at least.


Unlike many of the aspie/autistic/ignorant folks who play&post I'm actually capable of seeing things not only from my own perspective but also from someone else's. A BC is FINE for ppl on lowish SP wo don't want or can't commit expensive ships to pvp, simply because they don't have the experience, isk or organisation.

It's VERY easy for people who do have experience, SP and isk with gang links, RR and whatnot beating up **** fit newbies to state "lol BC has no role yo" but what they forget to add is "in my situation". People with a decently high IQ would probably realise this.


If you don't want or can't commit expensive ships to PvP, why the hell would you buy a BC? T1 cruisers / navy cruisers are much butter. Same with the dictors. Last time I checked, those ships are much cheaper. So please stop trying to mislead all of the new players in eve. If you are new to the game, don't skill into a BC- just like you shouldn't skill into a BS.


T1 cruisers are a viable alternative for (relatively) low SP/isk/experience players, Navy cruisers are not (terrible insurance pay back) nor are dictors and those are of limited use anyway. But Cruisers rely on kiting, something not everyone has the experience or SP to do so (T2 guns, good cap skills) and generally relies on having gang links. BC are much more straight forward and because of that much easier to use in the hands of an inexperienced low SP pilot.

The real issue is that for years we're all used to BC being the go-to ship class, being awesome for just about anything. Cane and Drakes everywhere! But that wasn't good, it was in fact terribly unbalanced. Now that it's changed people go "wtf happened to these OP ships?" and in a rage of hyperbole now call them ****** and useless. In reality they simply got balanced and are now just one of the options people have, nothing more, nothing less.

They're not supposed to be amazing or OP, most certainly not as they used to be. They're not funky, they're not special. They're cost effective workhorses for people who can't or won't use more funky stuff. they're FINE.


Stop whining.
Frank Pannon
Emerald Swine Escavations
#73 - 2014-02-06 14:36:49 UTC
Frothing, narcissist, deaf, pompous, elitist, hammering - words that linger with me reading this thread. Shame, it started really well.

I guess this is the curse of written discussions. Face to face we are just so much more civilized.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#74 - 2014-02-06 18:40:37 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:

T1 cruisers are a viable alternative for (relatively) low SP/isk/experience players, Navy cruisers are not (terrible insurance pay back) nor are dictors and those are of limited use anyway. But Cruisers rely on kiting, something not everyone has the experience or SP to do so (T2 guns, good cap skills) and generally relies on having gang links. BC are much more straight forward and because of that much easier to use in the hands of an inexperienced low SP pilot.

The real issue is that for years we're all used to BC being the go-to ship class, being awesome for just about anything. Cane and Drakes everywhere! But that wasn't good, it was in fact terribly unbalanced. Now that it's changed people go "wtf happened to these OP ships?" and in a rage of hyperbole now call them ****** and useless. In reality they simply got balanced and are now just one of the options people have, nothing more, nothing less.

They're not supposed to be amazing or OP, most certainly not as they used to be. They're not funky, they're not special. They're cost effective workhorses for people who can't or won't use more funky stuff. they're FINE.


Stop whining.


^^ This for the most part.

I think three changes would bring CBC's back into the metagame:

1.) Make Command Processors a Rig instead of a midslot module.
2.) Make links on grid only.
3.) Increase the warp speed of CBC's to be faster than cruisers.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#75 - 2014-02-06 19:27:33 UTC
Why are people that don't even show up on a killboard search piping in on ship balance? =/

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2014-02-06 19:44:00 UTC
Frank Pannon wrote:
Frothing, narcissist, deaf, pompous, elitist, hammering - words that linger with me reading this thread. Shame, it started really well.

I guess this is the curse of written discussions. Face to face we are just so much more civilized.



Not at all. I am much more arrogant in real life since my superiority stands much more evident when people gaze at me and they soon realize I am right.. about everything.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#77 - 2014-02-06 19:44:53 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Why are people that don't even show up on a killboard search piping in on ship balance? =/


Welcome to EvE-o forums, where everyone has a deep theoretical understanding of PvP- yet no actual experience, or kills to back up the gum flapping. But they use phrases filled with jargon, and navel terminology to make their arguments seem coherent.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#78 - 2014-02-06 19:50:42 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Why are people that don't even show up on a killboard search piping in on ship balance? =/


Why do people resort to ad hominem attacks rather than addressing the points under discussion.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#79 - 2014-02-06 20:04:21 UTC
Chessur wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Why are people that don't even show up on a killboard search piping in on ship balance? =/


Welcome to EvE-o forums, where everyone has a deep theoretical understanding of PvP- yet no actual experience, or kills to back up the gum flapping. But they use phrases filled with jargon, and navel terminology to make their arguments seem coherent.



Show us a kill of yours where the opponent actually had any skill or a good chance to win but didn't. You know, where you don't have gang links or people backing you and you don't kill double tanked **** fit newbie ships.

Go find some in the last 3 months, if you find more than, say, 10 you win :)
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#80 - 2014-02-06 20:28:14 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Chessur wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Why are people that don't even show up on a killboard search piping in on ship balance? =/


Welcome to EvE-o forums, where everyone has a deep theoretical understanding of PvP- yet no actual experience, or kills to back up the gum flapping. But they use phrases filled with jargon, and navel terminology to make their arguments seem coherent.



Show us a kill of yours where the opponent actually had any skill or a good chance to win but didn't. You know, where you don't have gang links or people backing you and you don't kill double tanked **** fit newbie ships.

Go find some in the last 3 months, if you find more than, say, 10 you win :)


Do us all a favor and don't put stupid dicksizing competitions on the forum.

Part of PvP'ing is knowing when to engaging. Part of PvP'ing is slaughtering a target of opportunity. I don't know Chessur's style of play, but he obviously has enough experience to form his opinions. I personally find some of his proclamations untenable (removing off grid boosting will hurt solo PvP... wtflol), but he has every right to proclaim his opinion as the rest of us.

The truth is, BC's are much less common now than 2 years ago, and they don't seem to match his desired play style. Many of the reasons listed are exactly the reasons they aren't utilized as much:
CBCs are slow and have difficulty catching faster cruisers. The extra tank and DPS they provide is often not worth the loss of agility and speed, especially to risk-adverse gang environment where players prefer kiting over brawling.