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Cloak Fuel - A cure to afk cloaking

Author
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
The Revenant Order
#21 - 2011-11-26 11:18:32 UTC
Solution to the entire *****fest: Remove cloaked ships from local.

If they're AFK, they can't hurt you.

If they're cloaked, they can't:
- Target
- Use EWAR
- Fire Weapons

So, with that said, the mechanic is balanced, quit crying and trying to get it nerfed because you obviously suck at life.

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||

Acwron
Meet The Fockers
#22 - 2011-11-26 11:40:59 UTC
Jack Carrigan wrote:
Solution to the entire *****fest: Remove cloaked ships from local.

If they're AFK, they can't hurt you.

If they're cloaked, they can't:
- Target
- Use EWAR
- Fire Weapons

So, with that said, the mechanic is balanced, quit crying and trying to get it nerfed because you obviously suck at life.


You surely come up very fast fast with the conclusions, especially about someone else's real life. Someone told me that those who are 100% sure of something are idiots. Smart people always have questions and doubts. I don't see you fit in the last category.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#23 - 2011-11-26 12:29:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
GuRasta wrote:
Mag's wrote:
What mechanic are they using, to interact with you and create fear whilst AFK?


Theres a reason almost every null sec alliance tells people to not rat with cloaky in system wether active or not, why don't you ask them? You'd rather me tell you? Ok, maybe its because even if theres a 1% chance for them to come back/hot drop it makes it illogical to rat with faction bs, use t1 bs you say? you obviously dont have a marauder or faction bs in hanger then because then you'd know almost any of them would rather log than rat for half the ticks and risk being a lawl on the kb, not to mention many alliances will kick you out for losing a ratting ship while ratting with a red/nuet in system. Sure trying to trap sometimes works, but not agaisnt afk's, are you really going to sit in a sanc for 3 hours with a bait bs? not to mention they could just come back and hotdrop 20 in on you anyway. Normal protocol for null sec alliances is to not rat with cloaky in system, because the mechanics and risk of it make it an illogical decision, and effectively allow 1 afk cloaker to shut down an entire alliances pve for literally days on end. I'm seeing more trolling going on than reasoning, and until some1 without a smartass answer disagrees with a logical pro/con list of why i'll keep the troll bat ready. Ending afk cloaking and provide a means to kill botters/severely hinder what botters can do while providing almost no detriment to actual cloak usage? Even the trolls should agree, but then again I guess trolls aren't very smart.
It was a simple question.

What mechanic are they using, to interact with you and create fear whilst AFK?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2011-11-26 13:46:11 UTC
Mag's wrote:
What mechanic are they using, to interact with you and create fear whilst AFK?


Dscan to name one I suppose.

But what can the players in the system he decides to go "afk" in do to chase him away?

The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't.

Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2011-11-26 14:02:56 UTC
OP suggestion unsupported, no real valid reason, poor argument and potentially "crippling" mechanic.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#26 - 2011-11-26 15:19:01 UTC
Lucien Visteen wrote:
Mag's wrote:
What mechanic are they using, to interact with you and create fear whilst AFK?


Dscan to name one I suppose.

But what can the players in the system he decides to go "afk" in do to chase him away?
So while he is AFK, he's using dscan to create fear and interact? Did I read you right?

What can they do? Of course if he is AFK, then you're safe anyway, but....

Move systems, rat in PvP fit ships, have gangs setup even though you maybe in different systems, put up cyno jammers to removed a great swath of hot drop possibilities, gather as much intel as possible on the enemy, use any intel gathered to fight back, bait, etc. etc.

OK I'll ask again.......

What mechanic are they using, to interact with you and create fear whilst AFK?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

StukaBee
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2011-11-26 15:26:37 UTC
ITT: psychological warfare is working as intended.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#28 - 2011-11-26 15:39:06 UTC
StukaBee wrote:
ITT: psychological warfare is working as intended.
Basically, yes.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Sir Lokit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2011-11-26 15:40:03 UTC
I feel that OP might not be representing this as well as he could be. Not to be stepping on any toes or anything but a few people seem to be shifting onto the idea that they agree with the fact that AFK cloak is abuse of a good mechanic.

To get people onto the same page, I'd be more than happy to inform them.

"How do AFK people strike fear?"

You don't know if they are truly AFK. Are they returning once every few hours? Are they actually sitting there? Are they watching you rat right now with a covet cyno? When are they going to uncloak and warp onto you? (Since they can get a BM at any time while cloaked, warp away and come back if they so choose, since you dont know if they were really afk or not).

A pair of eyes in the system is incredibly strong. now the reasons I listed arent all encompassing, but its an example of how this can effect someones play.

Now onto a more important issue that I would like to address.

"That doesn't seem like a fair way to change the mechanic to the rest of us"

I like this statement a lot. It means many of you are thinking about the change and focusing more on how to solve the problem rather then just saying know. Thank you. Thank you very much for accepting this. And I feel the its the community's responsibility to come up with a solution. (Or CCP. Im not really sure who usually figures these things out, Even though I suppose ultimately its their choice)

The suggested idea By Gurasata was just that. A suggested idea. I feel more effort should be put forth on finding alternative, more comfortable solutions for everyone. Indeed everyone has different play styles. And thats exactly why we need more people giving input.

Within my own circle of friends their have been several different suggestions, such as a structure that randomly sends a pulse out in the system once every 30-45 minutes (15 minute interval of time for it to go off that no one knows where it will land in).

Obviously this has its issues that I'm more than sure I dont need to go into, its just a listed suggestion.

Or being able to probe people out to a grid. But not pin pointing where they are at. You just know they are on that grid.

This obviously has some issues as well.

Or, taking what someone else suggested, (Gurasta's suggestion) And trying to work with it a bit and come up with a solution that more people are happy with.

Perhaps have a changing timer? Use fuel after you have been cloaked for a solid 30 minutes. After 25 minutes the cooldown increases exponentially for each minute still cloaked. Until you start using fuel, which will reduce this cooldown.

Again this is just a suggestion. Please, We are all here to improve the game and continue making it move forward. The number one issue here is that there is nothing that can be currently done about AFK cloaks. You can destroy their entire alliance, you can make everyone move back to empire. But they can still have an AFK cloak in your system just because they dont like you, And there isn't a single thing that be done about it.

All the community is asking for is either a way to prevent people from going AFK all day or empowering people who get stuck in their home system to be able to go out and do something about it. No matter how tedious it might be.

Sorry for the WOT. Thank you for reading (For those of you that did.)
Max Von Sydow
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2011-11-26 15:46:09 UTC
My biggest issue with afk cloakers is that they are in fact safe. The only way to be safer than someone who is cloaked is being docked, and docked people can be stationcamped making them unable to do anything, while someone who is cloaked at a safespot can just decloak and go about his own business.
Emperor Salazar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#31 - 2011-11-26 15:47:32 UTC
Thread reported for trolling.
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2011-11-26 15:54:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
Sir Lokit wrote:
All the community is asking for is either a way to prevent people from going AFK all day or empowering people who get stuck in their home system to be able to go out and do something about it. No matter how tedious it might be.


Somebody suggested a simple solution by periodically checking for a presence with an interactive message for any extended cloak useage, KISS engineering that could work to remove the assumed afk issue without the need to introduce any serious nerfing to cloaking. Answered the problem, but still doesn't quite seem sufficient, wonder why?
Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2011-11-26 16:02:49 UTC
Mag's wrote:
So while he is AFK, he's using dscan to create fear and interact? Did I read you right?

What can they do? Of course if he is AFK, then you're safe anyway, but....

Move systems, rat in PvP fit ships, have gangs setup even though you maybe in different systems, put up cyno jammers to removed a great swath of hot drop possibilities, gather as much intel as possible on the enemy, use any intel gathered to fight back, bait, etc. etc.

OK I'll ask again.......

What mechanic are they using, to interact with you and create fear whilst AFK?


Let me rephrase my answer then. He can use dscan and or probes to figure out your location, thus interacting with you. While seem to be afk. The fear factor is his presence alone.

How can I force pvp onto him, at times when he don't want to?


The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't.

Sir Lokit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2011-11-26 16:08:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Lokit
I actually feel that the suggestion of an interactive message would be wonderful. Assuming its done correctly. Though I suppose it could be considered unfair for people that already struggle with what ever language they are playing the game in since often many of these interactive messages require a strong grasp of the language. "What is another word for x" Or "If johnny ate two apples and gave away 3 but took back two after he ate another, how many does he have?" sort of problems. Ive met several people on eve who struggle reading and understanding the game as is due to a lack of language support and just having to work with minimum english.

How ever, I feel that the suggestion is a wonderful one. I'm more curious on what other people will say of why its unfair or obnoxious. Both sides. (I obviously cant speak for Cloaks and station-spinners)
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2011-11-26 16:25:21 UTC
Lucien Visteen wrote:
Mag's wrote:
So while he is AFK, he's using dscan to create fear and interact? Did I read you right?

What can they do? Of course if he is AFK, then you're safe anyway, but....

Move systems, rat in PvP fit ships, have gangs setup even though you maybe in different systems, put up cyno jammers to removed a great swath of hot drop possibilities, gather as much intel as possible on the enemy, use any intel gathered to fight back, bait, etc. etc.

OK I'll ask again.......

What mechanic are they using, to interact with you and create fear whilst AFK?


Let me rephrase my answer then. He can use dscan and or probes to figure out your location, thus interacting with you. While seem to be afk. The fear factor is his presence alone.

How can I force pvp onto him, at times when he don't want to?




What difference does it make, pound for pound, dedicated cloaking ships are penalised on the PvP scale. Their main advantage is intelligence (not suprisingly something they are designed for) and having a "choice" about engagement. Cloaking technology also adds penalties to "suprise" tactics with targeting having a sensor recalibration delay. This penalty combined with other significant penalties for anything other than the dedicated cloak type craft removes problems associated with suprise tactics. The exception being a stealth bomber.

As a suggestion to help with "your" cloaking problem, use the suggested helpfull counters like cyno jammers and your own intelligence operatives to alleviate anxieties and manage your cloaking visitors rather than become terrified of them.



Just considering the stealth bomber (SB), where cargo space is a premium for effective use with bombs and torps. How can it be expected that these ships also carry cloak fuel? OP wants to make SB's redundant perhaps?
Sir Lokit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2011-11-26 16:55:43 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:

Just considering the stealth bomber (SB), where cargo space is a premium for effective use with bombs and torps. How can it be expected that these ships also carry cloak fuel? OP wants to make SB's redundant perhaps?



Just to note. This is an example of lack of imagination and knowledge of the game. The mechanic is already being used and has been introduced. Fuel bay. Cargo space could go unaffected.

I do not support or reject the suggestion of fuel, I am purely pointing out that this is an example pointing fingers and accusing people rather than finding solutions. This type of behavior wont get us very far.
Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2011-11-26 16:57:35 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
What difference does it make, pound for pound, dedicated cloaking ships are penalised on the PvP scale. Their main advantage is intelligence (not suprisingly something they are designed for) and having a "choice" about engagement. Cloaking technology also adds penalties to "suprise" tactics with targeting having a sensor recalibration delay. This penalty combined with other significant penalties for anything other than the dedicated cloak type craft removes problems associated with suprise tactics. The exception being a stealth bomber.

As a suggestion to help with "your" cloaking problem, use the suggested helpfull counters like cyno jammers and your own intelligence operatives to alleviate anxieties and manage your cloaking visitors rather than become terrified of them.



Just considering the stealth bomber (SB), where cargo space is a premium for effective use with bombs and torps. How can it be expected that these ships also carry cloak fuel? OP wants to make SB's redundant perhaps?


I don't have a problem with cloakers. Really I don't.

I think the prospect of cloaking is cool. And could be unique. But.

I don't like that players claim that EVE is sutch a gritty and unfirgiving game, that whenever you undock you basicly consent to pvp and that you should not fly what you can't afford to loose. It seems to me then that its is very hypocritical to equip a cloak and be basicly excemt from that rule.

A miner can be lolganked in high-sec and it is a-ok since EVE is a hard place to live in, and don't fly what you can't afford. Complain on the cloak module, its a whole other story. He is AFK so he can't hurt you!! Cloak is not broken HTFU L2P!!

If EVE is a dangerous place to live, it should be that for everyone.

The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't.

Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2011-11-26 18:24:19 UTC
Lucien Visteen wrote:
I don't like that players claim that EVE is sutch a gritty and unfirgiving game, that whenever you undock you basicly consent to pvp and that you should not fly what you can't afford to loose. It seems to me then that its is very hypocritical to equip a cloak and be basicly excemt from that rule.


This is why we never, ever, ever see a cloakie on the Killboards as a casualty?

Quote:
He is AFK so he can't hurt you!! Cloak is not broken HTFU L2P!!


Slowly this reality may sink in for you, progress perhaps. But I wouldn't have been so trollish about it.
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2011-11-26 18:32:27 UTC
Sir Lokit wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:

Just considering the stealth bomber (SB), where cargo space is a premium for effective use with bombs and torps. How can it be expected that these ships also carry cloak fuel? OP wants to make SB's redundant perhaps?



Just to note. This is an example of lack of imagination and knowledge of the game. The mechanic is already being used and has been introduced. Fuel bay. Cargo space could go unaffected.

I do not support or reject the suggestion of fuel, I am purely pointing out that this is an example pointing fingers and accusing people rather than finding solutions. This type of behavior wont get us very far.


Erm, your alliance member was extremely polite in his debate also, so dont suddenly become the hard done by as a result. I didn't see his pragmatic willingness to make compromises and debate things sensibly.

And yet still with a possible solution to the AFK problem that was/is assumed to be a problem you are still wanting to push through extra nefing conditions for cloakies for no real valid reason. So don't hide behind the umbrella of pragmatism to get your nerf pushed through.
Sakaali
Perkone
Caldari State
#40 - 2011-11-26 18:43:26 UTC
People always forget about the 'multiplayer' in MMO. If one guy is cloaky in system then he is not attacking or interacting with you. If you're worried about an active cloaky guy blowing up your internet spaceship then bring friends. Have your own cloakies, bait him out and destroy him.

Things seem fine as they are