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Why freighter bumping in High Sec is an exploit

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Cassie Helio
Push Industries
Push Interstellar Network
#41 - 2014-02-05 22:54:26 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Cassie Helio wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Invest in a couple of smartbombing battleships or gank the bumper.


This is not an option in high sec. If you attack the bumper you will be CONCORDed.

It's an option, you're just not prepared to look at it, which is unfortunate as it is the most effective way of keeping your ship alive. You choose the value of your own ship and loot, and when you choose not to counter-gank, you've decided that your freighter and cargo is worth less than the cost 5-10 catalysts. If it's worth so little, why are you even complaining?


You shouldn't be forced to aggress first and lose your ship when the player is actually aggressing you but it just not being recognized by the current system.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#42 - 2014-02-05 22:55:19 UTC
Cassie Helio wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Cassie Helio wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Why freighter bumping in High Sec is NOT an exploit.

This is a sandbox MMO and you have options. Stop asking for CCP to hold your hand, because you do not wish to employ those options. Or you think :effort:.
Do those options mean you are perfectly safe? No and they shouldn't mean that, but you can reduce the risk using those options. The options available have been suggested many times, time to start using them.


That is in the context of miner bumping which is why I mentioned that in my original post. Miners were being bumped off of their rocks and then the rocks are held ransom to let the miner continue to shoot the rocks. But the miner has the option leave which a freighter does not. I've never see a definite post from CCP on freighter ganking
No it's not just about miner bumping, it's in regards to the bumping of another players ship.

Quote:
CCP considers the act of bumping a normal game mechanic, and does not class the bumping of another player’s ship as an exploit.


You may not like the ruling, but it is quite clear.


The bumping itself is not an exploit, what I am saying is that bumping a freighter in high sec is an exploit of that mechanic because there isn't anything that you or anyone else can do to stop it or prevent it.
But there are things you can do, so therefore your argument is not valid.

You may not like certain options, but hey, welcome to Eve.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#43 - 2014-02-05 23:07:32 UTC
Cassie Helio wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Cassie Helio wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Invest in a couple of smartbombing battleships or gank the bumper.


This is not an option in high sec. If you attack the bumper you will be CONCORDed.

It's an option, you're just not prepared to look at it, which is unfortunate as it is the most effective way of keeping your ship alive. You choose the value of your own ship and loot, and when you choose not to counter-gank, you've decided that your freighter and cargo is worth less than the cost 5-10 catalysts. If it's worth so little, why are you even complaining?


You shouldn't be forced to aggress first and lose your ship when the player is actually aggressing you but it just not being recognized by the current system.


You're not forced to, but the ownership of your property is being contested and if you care about it, you should probably do something about it. You said yourself, the BS keeps you bumped for a long time while the gankers log in, you could have your own gankers en route to you during that time. Maybe you could suggest it to your alliance leader, also it's probably best to use arty Thrashers.

Oh god.
Claud Tiberius
#44 - 2014-02-05 23:41:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Claud Tiberius
Ganking in high sec space is fine, so long as there is a significant cost (at present there is concord destroying your ship).

But if you are able to "tackle" a freighter in high sec space, without going into suspect status, thus taking no risk until your reinforcements arrive, that is exploitative. Bumping is a tackle.

Freighters in high sec space should not be expected to have personal guards, when at peace. Especially when high sec space is claimed to be a safe area for neutral members.

If someone wants to destroy a Freighter, they should declare war, or do it in lower sec space, as it is designed for. That way the amount of risk and reward are balanced (irrelevant to if you want to loot or not. Destroying something, especially a capital ship, can still a reward in itself).

Capital ships should be immune to bumping from small ships.

Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#45 - 2014-02-05 23:46:20 UTC
Claud Tiberius wrote:
Especially when high sec space is claimed to be a safe area for neutral members.

Where did you learn this?

Oh god.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#46 - 2014-02-05 23:54:33 UTC
Claud Tiberius wrote:


Capital ships should be immune to bumping from small ships.



But a plated MWD stabber has more kinetic energy than a freighter at full speed. Why should it not be able to affect the bigger ship's course?
Claud Tiberius
#47 - 2014-02-06 00:59:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Claud Tiberius
Riot Girl wrote:
Claud Tiberius wrote:
Especially when high sec space is claimed to be a safe area for neutral members.
Where did you learn this?

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Highsec

Isn't is also fairly obvious? Are you going to fly a freighter in lowSec that has pirates and corps who will attack without hesitation and without any risk. Or would you fly in highSec that has stations who refuse pirate docking, a larger player population that will often attack suspects, and concord who try to prevent pvp by guaranteeing that aggressors will lose their ships in acts of aggression without reason (no war was declared, not a war target, not a suspect).

Danika Princip wrote:
Claud Tiberius wrote:
Capital ships should be immune to bumping from small ships.


But a plated MWD stabber has more kinetic energy than a freighter at full speed. Why should it not be able to affect the bigger ship's course?

If we are going to get physical between ships where we allow bumping, then why not allow ship collisions as well? It runs by the same logic you use and is more appropriate for the game play, because in a collision, usually, something is destroyed. Furthermore, if there are no collisions and only bumping, what is the risk involved? Simply, there is no risk. The OP has already stated there is nothing you can do to a random aggressor, until they open fire.

Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#48 - 2014-02-06 01:10:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Riot Girl
Claud Tiberius wrote:
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Highsec

That says the complete opposite of what you think it does.

Quote:
Isn't is also fairly obvious?

The only thing that's obvious are the immortal words of Lil B, a.k.a BasedGod.

If you can't do 10, then I don't want ****.
If you can't do 5, then you must be a *****.
Get out the game if you can't hit a lick.

Lil B is actually talking about doing jail time for armed robbery, but I think it translates quite nicely into Eve online, especially if you think of 5 and 10 as negative sec status.

Edit: I think it's fairly obvious, but the 'Get out the game' part is literally telling you to biomass. I think Lil B probably plays Eve online secretly.

Oh god.
Cassie Helio
Push Industries
Push Interstellar Network
#49 - 2014-02-06 01:40:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Cassie Helio
Riot Girl wrote:
You're not forced to, but the ownership of your property is being contested and if you care about it, you should probably do something about it. You said yourself, the BS keeps you bumped for a long time while the gankers log in, you could have your own gankers en route to you during that time. Maybe you could suggest it to your alliance leader, also it's probably best to use arty Thrashers.


I thought about this some more and at first I thought it was a good idea but then I remembered sec status. A defense team would be taking huge sec status hits each time it tries to defend against someone who has found a way to tackle without getting an aggression timer and the bumper get no sec status hit at all. A defense squad eventually would not be able to come into high sec.

The way gankers stay in high sec is ,since they make profit on ganks, they buy tags to raise their sec status while a defense squad would not have that luxury. Again, the system is set up in the favor for tackling a freighter by bumping with no consequences.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#50 - 2014-02-06 01:43:09 UTC
Cassie Helio wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
You're not forced to, but the ownership of your property is being contested and if you care about it, you should probably do something about it. You said yourself, the BS keeps you bumped for a long time while the gankers log in, you could have your own gankers en route to you during that time. Maybe you could suggest it to your alliance leader, also it's probably best to use arty Thrashers.


I thought about this some more and at first I thought it was a good idea but then I remembered sec status. A defense team would be taking huge sec status hits each time it tries to defend against someone who has found a way to tackle without getting an aggression timer and the bumper get no sec status hit at all. A defense squad eventually would not be able to come into high sec.

The way gankers stay in high sec is ,since they make profit on ganks, they buy tags to raise their sec status while a defense squad would not have that luxury. Again, the system is set up in the favor for tackling a freighter by bumping with no consequences.



What about the gank squads who don't do that at all and just ignore their sec status?
Cassie Helio
Push Industries
Push Interstellar Network
#51 - 2014-02-06 01:52:19 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Cassie Helio wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
You're not forced to, but the ownership of your property is being contested and if you care about it, you should probably do something about it. You said yourself, the BS keeps you bumped for a long time while the gankers log in, you could have your own gankers en route to you during that time. Maybe you could suggest it to your alliance leader, also it's probably best to use arty Thrashers.


I thought about this some more and at first I thought it was a good idea but then I remembered sec status. A defense team would be taking huge sec status hits each time it tries to defend against someone who has found a way to tackle without getting an aggression timer and the bumper get no sec status hit at all. A defense squad eventually would not be able to come into high sec.

The way gankers stay in high sec is ,since they make profit on ganks, they buy tags to raise their sec status while a defense squad would not have that luxury. Again, the system is set up in the favor for tackling a freighter by bumping with no consequences.



What about the gank squads who don't do that at all and just ignore their sec status?


It can't be ignore forever because eventually their sec status will be so low that they are criminal upon entering high sec and are attacked by CONCORD.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#52 - 2014-02-06 01:59:18 UTC
Cassie Helio wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
You're not forced to, but the ownership of your property is being contested and if you care about it, you should probably do something about it. You said yourself, the BS keeps you bumped for a long time while the gankers log in, you could have your own gankers en route to you during that time. Maybe you could suggest it to your alliance leader, also it's probably best to use arty Thrashers.


I thought about this some more and at first I thought it was a good idea but then I remembered sec status. A defense team would be taking huge sec status hits each time it tries to defend against someone who has found a way to tackle without getting an aggression timer and the bumper get no sec status hit at all. A defense squad eventually would not be able to come into high sec.

The way gankers stay in high sec is ,since they make profit on ganks, they buy tags to raise their sec status while a defense squad would not have that luxury. Again, the system is set up in the favor for tackling a freighter by bumping with no consequences.


I hate having to tell other people how to play Eve, but if I had my own hauling corp, I'd probably want my own POS in Niarja where I can manufacture gank boats.

Oh god.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#53 - 2014-02-06 02:00:25 UTC
Cassie Helio wrote:


It can't be ignore forever because eventually their sec status will be so low that they are criminal upon entering high sec and are attacked by CONCORD.



Is that actually how it works? Because whenever mine's been too low, I just get chased by the faction navy, who aren't hard to evade.

Also, alt flies ganknado to sfaespot, criminal flies to ganknado, boards, warps to target, shoots, dies.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#54 - 2014-02-06 02:05:07 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Is that actually how it works?

No. lol.

Oh god.
JetStream Drenard
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#55 - 2014-02-06 02:40:36 UTC
I just don't get bumping as a mechanic to begin with, you ram people at full speed to knock them about. Nevermind the OP for a sec. What are we flying bumper cars? If you "bump" me with your car at full speed, you are going to to some physical damage to both of us (and you better have good insurance). So back to the OP, and all other bumping related activities, it is just a stupid and highly exploitable (by all, I do it too) game mechanic that makes absolutely no friggin sense to even have. But then you start down that road to Newtonian physics, and bullets that pass through objects to strike their target, and then it just devolves into CCP 'not gonna change.' So bring your suicide dessie along for the ride and blow up the bumper so you can align. (btw another pain in the rear, multi-boxing and those discussions too, bleah)

And why exactly dont freighters have any slots to fit mods? another pointed question
JetStream Drenard
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#56 - 2014-02-06 02:53:45 UTC
oh, and just ignore all these cretins who want to make you feel stupid about not knowing how to play eve. The truth is, they know it is a stupid mechanic, but it works in their ganking favor. that is how they have fun and they are going to post all kinds of nasty about dealing with it and such. A freighter is like a brick wall and if you drive full speed into a brick wall, what should happen with real physics. Truth is, CCP doesnt care because it is an isk sink (they are a business after all), as mentioned, which only allows the gankers to win. Also you might find that after a week or month you get sick of tagging along with another dessie character and you stop doing it, then the gankers win. Only CCP can change it and they probably never will (since you can be SURE you are not the first person to post something along this line), so deal with it
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2014-02-06 02:57:03 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
"Kenrailae" wrote:
...


Red Frog freighters can be bumped as well; what kind of logic is that, if I may ask? Roll


  • Have fun trying to bump a destroyer, which is at full speed flying to your freighter.
  • You can time your webs, but if your freighter is bumped or gets bumped in time, webs are pointless.
  • My point, invalidating your previous point.
  • You can wait for it to bump your freighter and then it's too late to kill it and you waste your cruiser.
  • I don't see how playbooks are connected to the issue, but my box is fairly wide already. Maybe you should switch from your playdoo box back into the topic related box. How does that sound?
  • If the gankers see your friends, they simply kill the wreck with a remaining ship before it gets concorded. Reading comprehension skill injected yet?
  • Numerous people have tried already. Is that not enough try yet? Maybe it's just a theory that needs more proof? Sounds fun.
  • No, not every ship is a cow. Most other ships have means to defend themselves, freighters have none. Bringing friends is your only solution to this, as I see. How about you jump out of your box of friends and at least try to consider that friends are NOT the solution to everything: friends cannot be everywhere, friends cannot be online all the times, friends can be occupied with other things, while you have to move their stuff, friends (in this case rather just corp members) might also just don't care about your hauling business. Friends is NOT the solution, it is but ONE way to alleviate the symptoms of a problem.




You have repeatedly demonstrated your inability to Eve.

Please uninstall :)










And Like it or not, Bro, in Eve, Friends ARE the answer to everything.



As for the rest of the thread, there are as many ways to neutralize, dissuade, and/or defeat a gank as there are to gank, in fact more. The 'Pirate Denizens' have been telling you all along how to beat us. High sec Carebears are the the Proverbial Horse that has been led to water. We have led you to the water. We have offered you the water. We have tried to force the water down your throats. You refuse to drink.


You refuse to listen to people who have a FAR greater understanding of PVP/aggression/module mechanics.

(Insert every ganker and Pirate and Nullbear that has ever said 'Hey Just do this and we can p much not catch you')

You refuse to implement the very simple things we suggest because they are 'inconvenient.'

(Insert Friends, paying freight services a TINY fee to get them to move your stuff, hire escort, use orca, etc etc etc etc)

And you refuse to Innovate, adapt to Eve as it evolves and grows.


(Insert unending stream of ganked freighters)

May the gankers litter space with your broken ships.


The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Mag's
Azn Empire
#58 - 2014-02-06 03:00:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Cassie Helio wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:



What about the gank squads who don't do that at all and just ignore their sec status?


It can't be ignore forever because eventually their sec status will be so low that they are criminal upon entering high sec and are attacked by CONCORD.
Concord do not care about your sec status, unless you are in their sov. Which is not the same thing now is it?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Cassie Helio
Push Industries
Push Interstellar Network
#59 - 2014-02-06 04:57:59 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Cassie Helio wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:



What about the gank squads who don't do that at all and just ignore their sec status?


It can't be ignore forever because eventually their sec status will be so low that they are criminal upon entering high sec and are attacked by CONCORD.
Concord do not care about your sec status, unless you are in there sov. Which is not the same thing now is it?


I realize now I was wrong about CONCORD attacking your ship in high sec if you are a pirate, it is actually the faction police. The point is that having a "gank defense fleet" that is forced to go criminal against players that are using a loophole to specifically NOT go criminal is a broken system.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#60 - 2014-02-06 07:26:18 UTC
Not gonna read 3 pages since I gatther its the usual case of htfu..if not asked yet already, who did you **** off to where they think a night of bumping your frieighter is a worthwhile use of time? and what did you do to get them that motivated to do this?