These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
ashley Eoner
#2461 - 2014-02-06 00:48:23 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
La Nariz wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:

There's another angle you can take to this. If you create a game where null earns 2x as much as highsec how could you ever hope to challenge the monolithic null block? How would it be possible to beat a massive entity that is so well financed that even their individual members are rich without the help of their corp? That kind of setup would create a handful of power blocks who would then become entrenched and the game would stagnant to the point it would decline in userbase. So if you disagree with my observation I would like it if you could explain how a highsec corp with nerfed income could hope to challenge a monolithic group capable of sending nearly endless waves of top of the line ships against them.

Also how would you deal with the massive isk faucet that would be null at that point? Currently if you follow the words of people here highsec LP is a massive sink.


EDIT : Clearly there are people in null already making over 2x what people in highsec are doing. How do you keep those people from making even more while still giving other members a boost?


The RL comparison stuff is crap for a number of reasons I won't get into.

Isk does not mean power (out side of market shenanigans) no matter how much isk you spend on that cruiser or frigate it can still be destroyed by someone in something cheaper than what you are flying. Its part of how we originated, we flew in our terribly fit rifters and destroyed the entrenched enriched most powerful nullsec bloc of the time.

Breaking into null is all about strategy and the problem right now is most groups that want in or fail to get in neglect one key portion of their strategy. Diplomacy, so many people fail at diplomacy it is amazing, this game requires social skills to compete which is something setting it apart from almost all of the other MMOs to date.

So reducing highsec reward won't make null impossible to break into.

Have we come up with a better idea yet than reducing L3/L4 and transfering the reduced portion to L5, L2, and L1?
Indeed you did it from the inside out but it seems most of the nullsec power blocks are careful of that now. Don't pretend you did it solely with terrible fit rifters.

Diplomacy can go a far way but complete and utter financial domination is exceedingly powerful.

If you're not happy with your income maybe you should discuss it with your corp?

If the rewards of nullsec are not worth it then why are you there?



Jenn aSide wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:



EDIT : I have a sinking feeling no one is going to bother to address the issues and instead will focus on this crap...


Why are you posting crap then?

You just made a post that says "null sec is africa there for it should be poor" followed by "if you let people in null sec make any money they will form huge power blocs" lol (demonstrating you can't read a map lol). Then you reply saying something about not comparing Star Citizen when no one was comparing Star Citizen.

You don't seem to be able to understand what's being discussed here, and I'm sorry, but that's no one's fault but your own.

It's the simple truth and you don't want to hear it. You're not even remotely generalizing me correctly but you know that. Otherwise you'd be forced into a discussion you're not comfortable with.

There is risk and much reward for those in nullsec. Those rewards include PVP galore with SRP. Having a section of space to call your own. Seeing your corporation in the legitimate mainstream media (for better or worse). The ability to make decent to excellent isk behind a blue wall. There's plenty of rewards or people wouldn't even be in nullsec. You're pretending that the only reward that is worthy of measurement is a mindless isk per hour grind. That is a small section of the game.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2462 - 2014-02-06 00:50:42 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Organic Lager wrote:

I think you messed up the quotes but i gathered that belt ratting was the worst way to make isk in null. Yet the guy I was replying to said he makes 90m/hour in bounties alone.

I'm not saying your wrong or high sec doesn't need a nerf because I don't have all the numbers so I don't know for sure. My question is why do you feel it needs a nerf when the lowest form of null sec income (belt ratting) is roughly equal to the highest form of high sec income (incursions).

Carebearing Level 4s with bounty + rewards + lp will be significantly less then 90m/hour as well.


Look at the sheet in my sig, it shows how much you can make doing mid-range combat PVE, nullsec L4s, Stoic provided data about highsec income, it boils down to:

Highsec: ~100m isk/hr

Nullsec: ~70m isk/hr

Whoever told you that about belt ratting is not telling the truth right now it is the worst form of nullsec combat pve to the point it could be used as a negative control to compare incomes.


This is not accurate or true. Anyone who does both knows this. I make over 120m isk per/hr in null just in anoms alone.


My information is true but, your information on the other hand:

CURRENT CORPORATION
State War Academy [SWA] from 2012.07.28 23:03 to this day

You are not present on evekill, battleclinic, or zkill killboards. You are not in nullsec and you do not rat in nullsec.

Provide full API to prove otherwise.

E: You also still have not looked at my sheet so you don't even know what it says.

My toon is in your corp tbh Shocked


No its in State War Academy unless you can prove otherwise, you have no credibility :smug:.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
ashley Eoner
#2463 - 2014-02-06 00:52:29 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Oh, one more thing: does a burger flipper get more reward for flipping burgers in a Macdonalds in The Bronx or in Wall Street? Nope, same minimum wage.

Does a burger flipper get rewarded more for flipping more burgers? Nope. They push up the KPIs for other burger flippers to meet to get the same wage.



You might just want to look into state required minimum wages.

A burger fliiper here in San Diego DOES indeed make about 45% more than a burger flipper in Bumblefuck, Texas.


That's because minimum wages are an arbitrary construct tied to the cost of living.
If true then minimum wage would be much higher. The reality is that while minimum wage is an artificial construct it's not tied to the cost of living. Comparing to inflation one can easily see that the effective minimum wage has actually dropped since the 60s.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2464 - 2014-02-06 00:54:07 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:


There is risk and much reward for those in nullsec. Those rewards include PVP galore with SRP. Having a section of space to call your own. Seeing your corporation in the legitimate mainstream media (for better or worse). The ability to make decent to excellent isk behind a blue wall. There's plenty of rewards or people wouldn't even be in nullsec. You're pretending that the only reward that is worthy of measurement is a mindless isk per hour grind. That is a small section of the game.


Aside from the media part, the same is true of this character's alliance, The ROC. (shameless plug) We are one of the few highsec corps will a fully functioning SRP, we roam low and null as we please, and we are a great alliance for a down on their luck highsec capsuleer to get back on his feet. Brits galore, if you find that accent appealing.

They even took a scumbag like me. Plenty of opportunity to PvP, btw. Marmite decs us on a monthly basis.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2465 - 2014-02-06 00:57:37 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:

It's the simple truth and you don't want to hear it. You're not even remotely generalizing me correctly but you know that. Otherwise you'd be forced into a discussion you're not comfortable with.

There is risk and much reward for those in nullsec. Those rewards include PVP galore with SRP. Having a section of space to call your own. Seeing your corporation in the legitimate mainstream media (for better or worse). The ability to make decent to excellent isk behind a blue wall. There's plenty of rewards or people wouldn't even be in nullsec. You're pretending that the only reward that is worthy of measurement is a mindless isk per hour grind. That is a small section of the game.


That small section of game is what we use to fund our ships to have all of these fights.

There is no getting around this, high sec simply offers better reward for our time than null sov does.
ashley Eoner
#2466 - 2014-02-06 01:01:33 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:

It's the simple truth and you don't want to hear it. You're not even remotely generalizing me correctly but you know that. Otherwise you'd be forced into a discussion you're not comfortable with.

There is risk and much reward for those in nullsec. Those rewards include PVP galore with SRP. Having a section of space to call your own. Seeing your corporation in the legitimate mainstream media (for better or worse). The ability to make decent to excellent isk behind a blue wall. There's plenty of rewards or people wouldn't even be in nullsec. You're pretending that the only reward that is worthy of measurement is a mindless isk per hour grind. That is a small section of the game.


That small section of game is what we use to fund our ships to have all of these fights.

There is no getting around this, high sec simply offers better reward for our time than null sov does.
You're telling me that with all the sources of income including the mighty goo and rentals that all of Goonswarm relies solely on anom runners and ratters to fund their war machine?

Really?


So why are you in null then?
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2467 - 2014-02-06 01:01:51 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
You're pretending that the only reward that is worthy of measurement is a mindless isk per hour grind. That is a small section of the game.


It is a small section of the game.

One that hour per hour is close enough in value TO DO IN HIGH SEC for a faction of the effort and aggravation. I don't play eve for the ****** PvE, BUT you need isk to keep yourself in ships.

SRP is cool and all, but YOU buy the first hull, and even then replacement policies vary.

Goons have a peace time and strat-op reimbursements that vary in value.
My Alliance requires that there be a santioned FC and X number of logi to qualify...and then you can get pro-rated for **** skills/fits. Solo and general goofing around losses need not apply
in .-A-. when I was there you go a hulls dropped in station once a month, which was cool and all, but there were a LOT of doctrines that were dead by the time you got that hull.

So there needs to be a flow of isk to keep the ships going, and that is NOT best accomplished in null.
fishblades
Perkone
Caldari State
#2468 - 2014-02-06 01:02:21 UTC  |  Edited by: fishblades
baltec1 wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
Even more so then the earlier sites posted by the goon making billions in a day.

Fishblades said in another thread that he made 22b in two months - or -366m per day.

I am assuming he is referring to the trick we figured out with FW a while back. We got it nerfed by abusing the hell out of it.

It was actually like 3 months, I think I said several in my post. Did it all by running combat sigs in Deklein. You should see Dek after downtime. It's a hilarious race of scanning to see who can get to them first. Still making billions :dealwitit:
ashley Eoner
#2469 - 2014-02-06 01:02:26 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
Onictus wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
You're pretending that the only reward that is worthy of measurement is a mindless isk per hour grind. That is a small section of the game.


It is a small section of the game.

One that hour per hour is close enough in value TO DO IN HIGH SEC for a faction of the effort and aggravation. I don't play eve for the ****** PvE, BUT you need isk to keep yourself in ships.

SRP is cool and all, but YOU buy the first hull, and even then replacement policies vary.

Goons have a peace time and strat-op reimbursements that vary in value.
My Alliance requires that there be a santioned FC and X number of logi to qualify...and then you can get pro-rated for **** skills/fits. Solo and general goofing around losses need not apply
in .-A-. when I was there you go a hulls dropped in station once a month, which was cool and all, but there were a LOT of doctrines that were dead by the time you got that hull.

So there needs to be a flow of isk to keep the ships going, and that is NOT best accomplished in null.

Then why are you in null if it's so terrible?

You know what would get CCP's attention? If your alliance abandoned null and started blitzing level 4s in apanake.


The goons could also stage a mission interdiction mission where they gank the crap out of missioners which would actually be profitable.

You could also advertise to newbies the money to be made so that way no one makes the big isk.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2470 - 2014-02-06 01:04:56 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
Onictus wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
You're pretending that the only reward that is worthy of measurement is a mindless isk per hour grind. That is a small section of the game.


It is a small section of the game.

One that hour per hour is close enough in value TO DO IN HIGH SEC for a faction of the effort and aggravation. I don't play eve for the ****** PvE, BUT you need isk to keep yourself in ships.

SRP is cool and all, but YOU buy the first hull, and even then replacement policies vary.

Goons have a peace time and strat-op reimbursements that vary in value.
My Alliance requires that there be a santioned FC and X number of logi to qualify...and then you can get pro-rated for **** skills/fits. Solo and general goofing around losses need not apply
in .-A-. when I was there you go a hulls dropped in station once a month, which was cool and all, but there were a LOT of doctrines that were dead by the time you got that hull.

So there needs to be a flow of isk to keep the ships going, and that is NOT best accomplished in null.

Then why are you in null if it's so terrible?



Wrong question., Right quesiton is "why are your alts (of jump clone if you don't have an alt) in high se?".

Answer: because of the imbalance.
fishblades
Perkone
Caldari State
#2471 - 2014-02-06 01:08:25 UTC  |  Edited by: fishblades
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Even more so then the earlier sites posted by the goon making billions in a day.

Fishblades said in another thread that he made 22b in two months - or -366m per day.


Also 366mil in a day sounds like a lot but it isn't really. Does it sound like a lot? That's only 4 Pith Penal Complexes only counting the Overseers effects. It also drops Rattlesnake BPCs and Pith B-type stuff.
ashley Eoner
#2472 - 2014-02-06 01:09:07 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
Onictus wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
You're pretending that the only reward that is worthy of measurement is a mindless isk per hour grind. That is a small section of the game.


It is a small section of the game.

One that hour per hour is close enough in value TO DO IN HIGH SEC for a faction of the effort and aggravation. I don't play eve for the ****** PvE, BUT you need isk to keep yourself in ships.

SRP is cool and all, but YOU buy the first hull, and even then replacement policies vary.

Goons have a peace time and strat-op reimbursements that vary in value.
My Alliance requires that there be a santioned FC and X number of logi to qualify...and then you can get pro-rated for **** skills/fits. Solo and general goofing around losses need not apply
in .-A-. when I was there you go a hulls dropped in station once a month, which was cool and all, but there were a LOT of doctrines that were dead by the time you got that hull.

So there needs to be a flow of isk to keep the ships going, and that is NOT best accomplished in null.

Then why are you in null if it's so terrible?



Wrong question., Right quesiton is "why are your alts (of jump clone if you don't have an alt) in high se?".

Answer: because of the imbalance.
So just leave null then. Since it's so terrible and worthless. That would get CCP's attention.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2473 - 2014-02-06 01:10:13 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:

Then why are you in null if it's so terrible?

You know what would get CCP's attention? If your alliance abandoned null and started blitzing level 4s in apanake.


The goons could also stage a mission interdiction mission where they gank the crap out of missioners which would actually be profitable.

You could also advertise to newbies the money to be made so that way no one makes the big isk.


Why the sam hell would we leave null to go to Apanake and do the LEAST favorite (well behind POS management and PI) functions in the game.

PvE is a means to an end, no more no less. If I NEVER had to run another missions, or rat, or scan a site I would be JUST fine with that. Its annoying that I have to dedicate toons that I could be doing something useful with to EMPIRE where my main hasn't so much as flown through hi sec unless I was ceptor bombing to get to a fight in like 3 years.

The very idea is asinine.
ashley Eoner
#2474 - 2014-02-06 01:14:12 UTC
Onictus wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:

Then why are you in null if it's so terrible?

You know what would get CCP's attention? If your alliance abandoned null and started blitzing level 4s in apanake.


The goons could also stage a mission interdiction mission where they gank the crap out of missioners which would actually be profitable.

You could also advertise to newbies the money to be made so that way no one makes the big isk.


Why the sam hell would we leave null to go to Apanake and do the LEAST favorite (well behind POS management and PI) functions in the game.

PvE is a means to an end, no more no less. If I NEVER had to run another missions, or rat, or scan a site I would be JUST fine with that. Its annoying that I have to dedicate toons that I could be doing something useful with to EMPIRE where my main hasn't so much as flown through hi sec unless I was ceptor bombing to get to a fight in like 3 years.

The very idea is asinine.
Because they just spent +120 pages complaining about how highsec has it so much better because of SOE missions.

Why not just embrace the option then because clearly null has no rewards worthy of fighting for when it's obvious 130 pages later that highsec is the bestest place.

Maybe then CCP will "Fix" null or whatever.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2475 - 2014-02-06 01:15:33 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
Onictus wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:

Then why are you in null if it's so terrible?

You know what would get CCP's attention? If your alliance abandoned null and started blitzing level 4s in apanake.


The goons could also stage a mission interdiction mission where they gank the crap out of missioners which would actually be profitable.

You could also advertise to newbies the money to be made so that way no one makes the big isk.


Why the sam hell would we leave null to go to Apanake and do the LEAST favorite (well behind POS management and PI) functions in the game.

PvE is a means to an end, no more no less. If I NEVER had to run another missions, or rat, or scan a site I would be JUST fine with that. Its annoying that I have to dedicate toons that I could be doing something useful with to EMPIRE where my main hasn't so much as flown through hi sec unless I was ceptor bombing to get to a fight in like 3 years.

The very idea is asinine.
Because they just spent +120 pages complaining about how highsec has it so much better because of SOE missions.

Why not just embrace the option then because clearly null has no rewards worthy of fighting for when it's obvious 130 pages later that highsec is the bestest place.




......again with the fingers in your ears.

Per usual completely missing the point.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2476 - 2014-02-06 01:18:19 UTC
First RL comparisons are worthless for a myriad of reasons. The most obvious being there is no respawning or immortality.

I had to chop some off of your post because it was massive, if I missed something you wanted a response to quote it at me.

Mara Rinn wrote:

Risk vs Reward is a single balancing metric. If you want to give higher rewards to greater risks, where's the ISK going to magically appear from to reward people who solo pilot a freighter load of frozen food through Amamake? Surely that's a high-risk endeavour?


Market activity is fine as is, the fictitious hauler made a dumb/smart bet and tried to capitalize on it. Low sec logistics and nullsec logistics are far more effort neither of which is rewarded at all while highsec logistics is effortlest; set destination -> autopilot. Risk : reward is the balancing metric between the sec areas and there is a problem of highsec making more reward than nullsec.


Mara Rin wrote:
Old style exploration (pre-Odyssey) rewarded intelligence quite handily. The barrier to entry was also convenient for preventing exploration being super-saturated with point-and-click monkeys.


That is not quantitative we cannot measure it, I don't know what you are trying to get at here.

Mara Rin wrote:

You almost get it. Intelligence is a balance factor: anyone who is intelligent can figure out how to get more ISK from a given activity, or even find ways to get ISK from an activity they're not participating in. There are many examples in game of where the people doing the "manual labour" aren't the ones reaping the rewards of their efforts: the miners aren't the ones to profit from mining. The haulers, manufacturers and market manipulators are the ones that profit.


You can basically say intelligence is the EVE equivalent of being skilled at twitch action like in an FPS. Intelligence is maybe a game design balance factor but, not a factor in inter-sec area balancing.

Mara Rin wrote:

Don't confuse effort with attention. The high sec miner has to spend more effort keeping lasers going, since asteroids in hi sec are smaller than asteroids in low sec. Two cycles of a strip miner and a hi sec asteroid is gone. The null sec miner has to keep an eye on intel channels and local. One has to expend more effort in clicks-per-hour to keep their activity going, the other has to pay more attention in eyes-on-screen-duty-cycle. Neither deserves more income. The market determines what is a fair income for both miners, and it turns out that there are enough null sec miners successfully returning ores to market that null sec mining pays the same ISK/hr as high sec mining.

So there's another balancing metric we've exposed: attention vs reward, where attention is simply the proportion of time that the player must have eyes on screen to successfully complete an activity.


I think you are seeing factors where they don't exist, it takes effort to pay attention which would tie it in to risk. Higher effort has some direct relation to higher risk.

Examples:

Building capital parts in versus build a small batch of fuel. Small scale industrial work.

Your capital parts require multiple large volume trips which opens up the potential for some sort of loss during the trips. While the small batch of fuel takes one trip and has a lesser time where the person could be ganked. The capital parts sell for a bunch more than the small batch of fuel so the higher risk activity and higher effort activity reaped more reward.

Mara Rin wrote:

Find a different metric. Quit the "risk vs reward" nonsense.


This is one of the core ideas the game is based around. The idea that the higher rewards come with higher risks. Its a very useful metric because it is what CCP used when designing the game and is still using. Until they say otherwise its the best tool we have for the job.

I think highsec should be the lowest income of EVE, since it is the safest and lowest risk it should also be the lowest reward. That doesn't mean highsec content has to be boring, it just has to not pay as well as nullsec content.

I agree the game designers aren't perfect, which is okay, and I think they have no idea how to fix the balance issues behind highsec risk : reward. So suggestions would be very helpful.

The best so far is redistributing some of L3 and L4 mission reward to L5, L2, and L1 reward. It will reduce the income but, not mess with the faucets/sinks and it helps the newbies by giving them a greater income.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2477 - 2014-02-06 01:18:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
ashley Eoner wrote:
Because they just spent +120 pages complaining about how highsec has it so much better because of SOE missions.
No.
They spend 120+ pages complaining about how highsec has it so much better in one specific, and obligatory area that they'd all prefer to avoid if it weren't unavoidable in order to do the things they would like to do.

Quote:
Why not just embrace the option then because clearly null has no rewards worthy of fighting for when it's obvious 130 pages later that highsec is the bestest place.
Because no-one has actually claimed that. That's just an association fallacy on your part.

Quote:
So just leave null then. Since it's so terrible and worthless. That would get CCP's attention.
They already have. Didn't you get that part?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2478 - 2014-02-06 01:22:17 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
You're telling me that with all the sources of income including the mighty goo and rentals that all of Goonswarm relies solely on anom runners and ratters to fund their war machine?

Really?


So why are you in null then?


Moon goo and rental income is alliance level income not individual pilot income.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2479 - 2014-02-06 01:23:43 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:

Then why are you in null if it's so terrible?

You know what would get CCP's attention? If your alliance abandoned null and started blitzing level 4s in apanake.


The goons could also stage a mission interdiction mission where they gank the crap out of missioners which would actually be profitable.

You could also advertise to newbies the money to be made so that way no one makes the big isk.


The bolded part, I do these things its not nearly as profitable as you think. Its also not nearly as common as you think.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2480 - 2014-02-06 01:23:56 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
You're telling me that with all the sources of income including the mighty goo and rentals that all of Goonswarm relies solely on anom runners and ratters to fund their war machine?

Really?

So why are you in null then?

Moon goo and rental income is alliance level income not individual pilot income.

Also, should we bring up the fact that moon mining is about on part with (highsec) ice mining again?