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Replace DirectX with OpenGL
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Loki Angrboda
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2014-02-05 13:48:27 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
And here it is, again, the request to replace this whole DirectX fuckup with OpenGL.

We had this in this forum a while ago. *Snip* Please refrain from discussing forum moderation. ISD Ezwal.

So here are the reasons why CCP should do this:

DirectX is dead
AMD told us so last year: http://news.techeye.net/software/forget-directx-12-says-amd
There was no major updates to DirectX in the near past. It is just dead. The full power of modern graphic cards could only be used if you use OpenGL.

DirectX is Windows-Only
We know, Linux is currently not supported, but what is with OSX? I don't know how the OSX Client is implemented,
but i think its one of the crappy DirectX wrappers out there. Using OpenGL would solve one big issue here.

OpenGL is faster
Not from me, Valve claimed that: http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/linux/faster-zombies/
nvidia proofed it again at the Steam Dev Days: http://de.slideshare.net/CassEveritt/beyond-porting (slide 20)
And if you know about Modeswitching and broken Windows driver implementations, you could understand why.

OpenGL is the future
Don't need to explain that, or should i?

It's compatible with the SteamBox
And as we all know, that is a Linux system. And: it will support Valve's VR.

It will become cheaper to develop
Why? Because Valve is implementing a opensource solution for developing and debugging OpenGL:
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTU3NTA
What do you pay to M$ for the licenses?


There is no instand need for a linux client. We are all happy if it works in WINE.
But it should be in CCP's interrest to starting porting to OpenGL ASAP. Even if the release is coming in two or three years. It is time.

And if you don't have a clue how, just ask Ryan Gordon: https://icculus.org/SteamDevDays/

That's why, the rest is up to CCP.

And if you close this thread: please tell us why you don't want to port it. Just to show us: we are not ignored.
Electrique Wizard
Mutually Lucrative Business Proposals
#2 - 2014-02-05 13:53:26 UTC
1. EVE runs on ancient code and parts of Black Magic
2. Fixing EVE for OpenGL instead of DirectX wouldt take forever and launch a fuckton of bugs
3. Precious time wasted that could be poured into stuff like creating tophats or even stupid stuff nobody cares about like rewriting POS code.

I am the Zodiac, I am the stars, You are the sorceress, my priestess of Mars, Queen of the night, swathed in satin black, Your ivory flesh upon my torture rack.
Loki Angrboda
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2014-02-05 13:57:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Loki Angrboda
Electrique Wizard wrote:
1. EVE runs on ancient code and parts of Black Magic
2. Fixing EVE for OpenGL instead of DirectX wouldt take forever and launch a fuckton of bugs
3. Precious time wasted that could be poured into stuff like creating tophats or even stupid stuff nobody cares about like rewriting POS code
.


You may be right. But: As only the client is DirectX bound, there is no reason to not develop a OpenGL in a parallel process. I would think, that there are developers for graphics and developers for other stuff. So, there should not be so much time "waste". If this game is made for the future, it must be able to use new graphics hardware even in 5 years. And this wont work with DirectX11
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#4 - 2014-02-05 14:08:50 UTC
Mantle API. Also, this is the wrong forum for this.

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.
Loki Angrboda
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2014-02-05 14:16:49 UTC
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
Mantle API. Also, this is the wrong forum for this.

Mantle? Would be fine too. If it is stable and tested.

What forum should i use? If it is the wrong, the mod's could move the post.
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#6 - 2014-02-05 14:35:44 UTC
OpenGL > the other crap

+1 from the bottom of my Heart!

Meet the Mario Kart 8 - Capsuleer Club Cup
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#7 - 2014-02-05 16:32:57 UTC
forum ate my post :(
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#8 - 2014-02-05 16:49:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Dav Varan
Dav Varan wrote:
forum ate my post :(


I don't trust the Open GL business model.
Not for profit organisation dont have enough on the line or resources at there disposal to be trusted to keep there eye on the ball.

In fact I belive past releases of GL have been met with varying level of enthusiasm or contempt by the then dev communities.

I think DX is the reliable future bet being backed by a very well resourced multinational with a substantial investment in the Tech.



You sources are a bit dubious being as they are from corporations that are in effect in competition with MS.

Quoting ADM execs saying DX is dying is funny as they are in fact making there own propriatory DX competitor, mantle iirc.

ADM don't get to tell the world when DX is dead they are a second rate procducer of second rate budget processors who brought out an ailing Card company ( ATI ) to continue to make second rate video cards.

If Nvidia removed backing for DX then it would be time to act.


and Valve are invested in GL as you point out.

Not that I think there lying about the numbers maybe the current release of GL is 5% faster than DX.
How ever is that situation likelly to remain ?

Jumping to GL as an only framework would be a massive gamble.
As a secondary framework is fine.
Dr0000 Maulerant
Union Nanide and Tooling
#9 - 2014-02-05 17:34:47 UTC
DX9 wasn't used to its full potential, and most games barely scratch the surface of what DX11 is capable of.
If EVE took advantage of half the capability of DX11, it would be the most visually appealing MMO on the market.

Transitioning to opengl would be just as much of a bug-hunt. If not more.

Tell me again about how every playstyle you dont engage in "doesn't require any effort" and everyone who does it needs to die in a fire. Be sure to mention about how you tried it once but it was too easy/boring/ethnic-homophobic slur. 
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#10 - 2014-02-05 17:40:45 UTC
every one knows Nvidia and directX is better then AMD *trollface*

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#11 - 2014-02-05 17:43:42 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:
forum ate my post :(


I don't trust the Open GL business model.
Not for profit organisation dont have enough on the line or resources at there disposal to be trusted to keep there eye on the ball.

In fact I belive past releases of GL have been met with varying level of enthusiasm or contempt by the then dev communities.

I think DX is the reliable future bet being backed by a very well resourced multinational with a substantial investment in the Tech.



You sources are a bit dubious being as they are from corporations that are in effect in competition with MS.

Quoting ADM execs saying DX is dying is funny as they are in fact making there own propriatory DX competitor, mantle iirc.

ADM don't get to tell the world when DX is dead they are a second rate procducer of second rate budget processors who brought out an ailing Card company ( ATI ) to continue to make second rate video cards.

If Nvidia removed backing for DX then it would be time to act.


and Valve are invested in GL as you point out.

Not that I think there lying about the numbers maybe the current release of GL is 5% faster than DX.
How ever is that situation likelly to remain ?

Jumping to GL as an only framework would be a massive gamble.
As a secondary framework is fine.

i believe they were more invested in GL due to their games being for mac and linux too and probably just helps the porting to mac and linux easier while also useing dx tech i think as i recal they sued to be heavy on nvidia's D at one time

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2014-02-05 18:13:35 UTC
Electrique Wizard wrote:
1. EVE runs on ancient code and parts of Black Magic
2. Fixing EVE for OpenGL instead of DirectX wouldt take forever and launch a fuckton of bugs
3. Precious time wasted that could be poured into stuff like creating tophats or even stupid stuff nobody cares about like rewriting POS code.


I've written both directx and OpenGL code. I don't see any major difficulties in porting. Libraries such as ogre3d allow one codebase to choose directx or OpenGL at run time. The major difference is the orientation of the matrix representations, which can be translated automatically in code if necessary.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Loki Angrboda
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2014-02-05 23:32:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Loki Angrboda
Dav Varan wrote:

I don't trust the Open GL business model.
Not for profit organisation dont have enough on the line or resources at there disposal to be trusted to keep there eye on the ball.

In fact I belive past releases of GL have been met with varying level of enthusiasm or contempt by the then dev communities.


Oh my god. Please inform yourself a little bit, before posting garbage.
First of all, there are so many Non-Profit-Orgs delivering the best software you can get. No other webserver could beat the one from apache for example. PHP is non profit, the most pages on the web are build with it.

OpenGL is part of Khronos. Have a look at the member list. http://www.khronos.org/members/
You will find many academic instiutions there, AMD, Intel, NVidia, ARM, Apple,VMware and much more companies. Guess who is missing ... right ... Microsoft is the only one.

Dav Varan wrote:

I think DX is the reliable future bet being backed by a very well resourced multinational with a substantial investment in the Tech.


Did you ever learned something about the Windows driver ecosystem? Modeswitching and the bad implenetation of DirectX?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_OpenGL_and_Direct3D#Mode_switching_.28on_Microsoft_Windows.29

Dav Varan wrote:

You sources are a bit dubious being as they are from corporations that are in effect in competition with MS.

Quoting ADM execs saying DX is dying is funny as they are in fact making there own propriatory DX competitor, mantle iirc.

ADM don't get to tell the world when DX is dead they are a second rate procducer of second rate budget processors who brought out an ailing Card company ( ATI ) to continue to make second rate video cards.


What was the last Update for DX with new features? August 1, 2012 ...


Dav Varan wrote:

If Nvidia removed backing for DX then it would be time to act.


Why should they do? It does not waste any ressources, as DirectX sees no updates, so no changes needed ... instead Nvidia did major work on OpenGL 4.4. AMD too btw ...

Dav Varan wrote:

and Valve are invested in GL as you point out.

Not that I think there lying about the numbers maybe the current release of GL is 5% faster than DX.
How ever is that situation likelly to remain ?

Jumping to GL as an only framework would be a massive gamble.
As a secondary framework is fine.


there are no "realeses" of OpenGL. Only Hardware-Support. If a new GFX Card has newer Features, they could be used without waiting for some release of $something. And yes, it will stay until Microsoft fixes there Kernel and driver handling.

Maintaing two codeparts is just much more work and more error prone. And if you could get the same or better results, with only one technology (it is not a Framework ... SDL is one for example) why should you maintain two?
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#14 - 2014-02-06 00:07:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Dav Varan wrote:
ADM don't get to tell the world when DX is dead they are a second rate procducer of second rate budget processors who brought out an ailing Card company ( ATI ) to continue to make second rate video cards.


First, it's AMD, not ADM

Second, I don't understand how they're second rate, when they've competed very well per-dollar for years and were a pioneer in modern CPUs. You're using some of their tech right now, even if you have an intel CPU.

ATI (now branded AMD as well) as a company was ailing when they were bought, but their designs were not...their gpus have been trading blows with nvidia for quite some time. There is a very good reason all current and last-gen consoles use some of their hardware...the XBone and PS4 even use AMD exclusively, both processor and GPU in one unit.

thhief ghabmoef
Bjor Talvanen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#15 - 2014-02-06 00:33:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Bjor Talvanen
+1 for this. DirectX is dead; Microsoft doesn't even seem that invested in the gaming market anymore. Sure they've got the Xbone, but by their own admission it's a home media center before it's a gaming machine. Also they haven't updated the DirectX API for nearly 18 months. Did anyone follow any coverage of CES? How much Microsoft-based gaming kit was there? Hint: Not much

The next 5-10 years will see the cutting edge gaming tech move away from Windows and to open platforms like SteamOS and other *nix alternatives. It would be in CCP's interest to move in this direction as soon as possible.

OpenGL right now can do more than DirectX, with similar or better performance, and runs on more platforms. So unless Microsoft is going to 'sponsor' you, why even bother developing your game in DirectX?
Dart Aurel
Space Roar
#16 - 2014-02-06 00:34:06 UTC
Two teas (+1) to OP author.

The change requires major rewriting of client code. But... it's only client code. And even more, most of the client code should be UI logic, not the actual renderer. That's not so huge task as it appears at the first sight (IMHO, of course, but yes, i'm a software developer).

So, +1. CCP, if u changing DX9 to DX11, please, make 1 more step forward, switch to OpenGL. It will give you a great community relation boost and will make your karma lighter ;)
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#17 - 2014-02-06 00:41:05 UTC
To have full cross-platform compatibility you need more than OpenGL. AFAIK, Eve still depends on DirectSound, and likely a good number of Windows tech that only work in Mac because they're shoehorned.

Also, keep in mind that the original Eve was apparently an unmaintainable code mess. Don't expect nice abstract code structure via OGRE, or SDL. Instead expect a hard-coded jungle of junk. To replace something as core as DirectX is would require a code refactor probably unprecedented in Eve's development. If a refactor to make a "Switch Character" button is too much effort for too little reward, why would replacing DirectX with OpenGL (which at best will go unnoticed, and at worst would cause mass quitting because of bugs) be any more likely to happen?

Aaaand a pet peeve:
Electrique Wizard wrote:

3. Precious time wasted that could be poured into stuff like creating tophats or even stupid stuff nobody cares about like rewriting POS code.


Just as you wouldn't tell an architect to do an art installation, or an electrician to do the plumbing, you cannot ask database and business code engineers to write graphics code, same as you can't ask graphics programmers to improve the forum software. Additionally, development "inertia" -- keeping developers for a long time until the codebase is second nature -- is how you get people who do stuff efficiently. You can't simply fire all the web developers, hire a bunch of graphics engineers, and expect there to suddenly be tons of productivity in the graphics dept.

tl;dr: Efficient software engineers are very specialized and not at all hotswappable.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#18 - 2014-02-06 00:46:55 UTC
Not that I hate OpenGL. If Eve were being coded from scratch now and they used DX instead of OGL I would be very disappointed. But, things being where they are, they're not going to change.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Skuyou
Death and Taxes Incorporated.
#19 - 2014-02-06 02:37:48 UTC
I would agree with pretrus but one can hope. They just got done revamping the char select so hopefully its clean code beyond that who knows. My hopes is that after the orig 7 ish devs who created eve became supervisors and started assigning things to there underlings that they would be cleaning up the rats nest that is scratch code that works but isnt optimal.

they have had 10 years of a successful game one would hope most of it is clean now. If not we have there first task. After that how hard would it be to port?

Anyone here a market analyst and capable of putting forward a proposal with fill in the blanks? x amount of employees hours spent so on... I would do it but this is not my area of expertise.
Miracle Chipmunk Otsito
Poor Man Inc
#20 - 2014-02-06 02:49:46 UTC
Direct3D 9 works in Linux with the FOSS drivers. CCP can make a Linux port and keep D3D9, although the rest of DirectX would have to be stripped out/replaced.
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