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Gallente-Caldari Relations, Are They Improving?

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Hamish Grayson
#301 - 2014-02-05 23:47:40 UTC
Lyka Gridherst wrote:
[quote=Saya Ishikari]

My assertion is based on living in Caille and simply interacting with people. As long as the Caldari claim Caldari Prime, not very many feel safe. You may be right that there is more to lose, but never underestimate the need of people to feel safe.


The most logical solution then, would be for the mass relocation of all Federations citizens from the Luminaire star system. They would feel safe and peace could be had.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#302 - 2014-02-05 23:52:03 UTC  |  Edited by: James Syagrius
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Tell me Ms. Gridherst. Does it say in the Federal Charter that a member, even a signatory member, is barred from leaving that agreement if they so chose?

The Caldari were very willing to take all the advantages of Federal membership, technological and cultural. Until their duplicity caught up with them.

“Here also are the heralds of his praise."
Gosakumori Noh
Coven of One
#303 - 2014-02-05 23:57:03 UTC
Hamish Grayson wrote:
Lyka Gridherst wrote:
[quote=Saya Ishikari]

My assertion is based on living in Caille and simply interacting with people. As long as the Caldari claim Caldari Prime, not very many feel safe. You may be right that there is more to lose, but never underestimate the need of people to feel safe.


The most logical solution then, would be for the mass relocation of all Federations citizens from the Luminaire star system. They would feel safe and peace could be had.


Oh! Might I suggest the new Viziam Prototype Imperial Slave Freighter, don't mind the "slave" thing, it's just a word. They are still running it through focus groups. "Indentured" might be substituted. It's just kind of long and difficult to fit "Indentured" on the side of a vessel that is only, well, eight kilometers long.

Comfort. As with all Viziam ships, comfort is Priority One. Multiple seat climate control, bun warmers, Chloroform dispensation conduits. I know, I know, the Senate is still skeptical. But perhaps a trial basis. One ship should accommodate most of Luminaire's drunk tanks. The Empire will sober them right up, it will. I myself am running a new twelve step program in Hilaban for Gallente ballet dancers suffering from substance addiction.

Yes, I am a True Amarrian Patron of the Arts in all respects.
Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#304 - 2014-02-06 00:00:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Saya Ishikari
Lyka Gridherst wrote:
Saya Ishikari wrote:

If you're referring to Home, then the same could be said for the Minmatar and Matari. Give it back to to the Empire and all's well, right? If you're referring to the war zones, I'm not alone in saying I wouldn't mind putting that conflict to bed and moving on. Frankly, I have to agree with Pieter regarding your expertise on the matter... It's one thing to preach to a classroom, another to live it, especially on our end. Were the roles reversed, I suspect you might understand far more clearly, ma'am. If you actually want to experience capsuleer politics, grab a frigate, the stars await, and the perspective is far better, I promise you.

As for the matter of acceptance of the current treaty, far more can be lost than gained by breaking it. What proof do you offer to support your view that it is not going go be accepted as a solution by the citizenry of the Federation?

I am speaking of Caldari Prime only. The CEMWPA is a whole different can of worms that I don't even want to get into. Nor do I have a particular desire to delve into the relationship between the Matari and the Empire.
My assertion is based on living in Caille and simply interacting with people. As long as the Caldari claim Caldari Prime, not very many feel safe. You may be right that there is more to lose, but never underestimate the need of people to feel safe.

Then I assume you're prepared to provide proof? Hard facts? Surely you, as someone who holds a doctorate, can understand the need for a representation of said interactions for those who have naught but your opinion otherwise?

Now, as for your views of 'not letting the megacorps take power', and not 'leaving the Federal charter '... I suggest you grab some more classes, ma'am. The Deksam were essentially already in place when the Caldari and Gallente made contact, and simply grew from threre. They're as much a part of our culture as the voluval is a part of Minmatar life. It's an embarrassingly ignorant statement, akin to suggesting that the Gallente "shake off the yoke of democracy".

I'm not totally familiar with the Federal Charter yet, but I would really like to know where the orbital bombardment of civilians clause is therein. And yes, I acknowledge Nouvelle Rauvenor as an atrocity, and a trigger point for war, as was Malkalen. If we're to be held responsible, as a people, for the actions of those few, then it should come as no surprise to you to be held accountable for Noir.

On a seperate statement, Mister Syagrius, you've spoken to me and Pieter about this very topic. You know better.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#305 - 2014-02-06 00:05:23 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Tell me Ms. Gridherst. Does it say in the Federal Charter that a member, even a signatory member, is barred from leaving that agreement if they so chose?

The Caldari were very willing to take all the advantages of Federal membership, technological and cultural. Until their duplicity caught up with them.


Had the situation been reversed and it was the Gallente who felt membership was no longer beneficial to them would you fault them from wanting to end the partnership? or should we, or the Gallente in the reverse case, merely remain loyal out of gratitude despite the ills being felt from a government that no longer represented their best interests?

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#306 - 2014-02-06 00:06:48 UTC
Saya Ishikari wrote:
On a separate statement, Mister Syagrius, you've spoken to me and Pieter about this very topic. You know better.

I only know what I read Miss Ishikari.
Hamish Grayson wrote:
The most logical solution then, would be for the mass relocation of all Federations citizens from the Luminaire star system. They would feel safe and peace could be had.

“Here also are the heralds of his praise."
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#307 - 2014-02-06 00:08:22 UTC
There really needs to be an indexed and cataloged standardized response system for Caldari capsuleers to refer to when forced to deal with stereotypical Federalist responses. Such as:

"If the Caldari didn't secede there would be no war."

Please refer to Article 3, paragraph 1, subsection 2.

"The Caldari hate freedom because liberty is the only way."

Please refer to Article 2, paragraph 4, subsection 3.

And so on. It simply seems a much more efficient method that saves time in the long run.

It might even be used for Amarr and Minmatar dialogue on the IGS where one can just refer directly to their own index.

Matari: "Article 1, paragraph 1, subsection 1" (The declaration of coming for my people)

Responded with:

Amarr: "Article 1, paragraph 1, subsection 1" (You terrorist dogs!)

Kurilaivonen|Concern
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#308 - 2014-02-06 00:11:05 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Tell me Ms. Gridherst. Does it say in the Federal Charter that a member, even a signatory member, is barred from leaving that agreement if they so chose?

The Caldari were very willing to take all the advantages of Federal membership, technological and cultural. Until their duplicity caught up with them.


Had the situation been reversed and it was the Gallente who felt membership was no longer beneficial to them would you fault them from wanting to end the partnership? or should we, or the Gallente in the reverse case, merely remain loyal out of gratitude despite the ills being felt from a government that no longer represented their best interests?


What ifs?

The Caldari breached their obligations to the Federation by the establishment of "secrete" colonies.

If you thought they were legal, why did you hid them?

If you were unhappy with the Federation why did you only decide to leave after their existence was uncovered?

We all know the history of this sad tale Simon.

“Here also are the heralds of his praise."
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#309 - 2014-02-06 00:12:36 UTC
None of us will find a lasting peace until we hold the others' view.

Is a little faith and understanding really all that much to ask of you?
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#310 - 2014-02-06 00:14:00 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Tell me Ms. Gridherst. Does it say in the Federal Charter that a member, even a signatory member, is barred from leaving that agreement if they so chose?

The Caldari were very willing to take all the advantages of Federal membership, technological and cultural. Until their duplicity caught up with them.


Again, James, bill us and then leave us alone. I'd be willing to pay reparations for what were clearly breaches of the Federal Charter. Might have to apply the damages inflicted in the blockade and bombardment against them, but at least there'd be an end to this.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#311 - 2014-02-06 00:14:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Saya Ishikari
James Syagrius wrote:
Saya Ishikari wrote:
On a separate statement, Mister Syagrius, you've spoken to me and Pieter about this very topic. You know better.

I only know what I read Miss Ishikari.
Hamish Grayson wrote:
The most logical solution then, would be for the mass relocation of all Federations citizens from the Luminaire star system. They would feel safe and peace could be had.

One opinion should not completely trump what you already know, sir. Both I and Pieter have publicly voiced our support for the resolution. Let's leave the warmongering to the warmongers. It's not worth drumming up two hundred year old hatered anymore when the first steps away have been taken.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#312 - 2014-02-06 00:19:18 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:

So it is still your intention to dispossess the Federal citizens who make Caldari Prime their home?

You intend to breach the fragile peace we now enjoy?


I'm not suggesting that at all, and I believe you should know me better than that.

I'm merely pointing out that as long as there is a push in the Federation for retaining the Caldari Homeworld as property of the State that things will continue to boil. This has and will always remain at the core of any issue regarding the situation on Home.

James Syagrius wrote:

What ifs?

The Caldari breached their obligations to the Federation by the establishment of "secrete" colonies.

If you thought they were legal, why did you hid them?

If you were unhappy with the Federation why did you only decide to leave after their existence was uncovered?

We all know the history of this sad tale Simon.


The colonies were established by the individual corporations, not any particular Caldari nation James. These colonial worlds operated as property of their repsective corporations. If I recall my history correct, many Intaki pointed this out as well and supported the Corporate case that they were not obligated to subject them to Federal authority.

We need not to rehash history, I agree with you there, but if we must we have to consider that things are simply not as black and white as you just implied. The demand to place those colonies under any amount of Federal authority was simply the last straw in a mounting sense of dissatisfaction with the Caldari people.

There is always that 'last straw' that breaks the camels back. It doesn't mean that it was the only starw.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Lyka Gridherst
Doomheim
#313 - 2014-02-06 01:34:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyka Gridherst
Oh my, so much to respond to!

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

Remind me to wait for you to breach the regulations surrounding your University expense account to that I can feel justified in burning your house to the ground, Doctor.

Well, Tuulinen-haan, I will be sure to let you know if that happens. It's rather stereotypical of you to go right after the books and money, though.
Simon Louvaki wrote:

Tell me Ms. Gridherst. Does it say in the Federal Charter that a member, even a signatory member, is barred from leaving that agreement if they so chose? and our Ancestors decision to place their trust in the Okusaikas rather than in the Federal Senate is irrelevant.
I am intrigued, however, on the number of treaties the Okusaikas have been allegedly breaking for years. Care to list them for me?

Doctor Gridherst.
I'm not sure that modern interpretations would allow succession. I'll leave that to the legal scholars to tackle. The point is, though, they broke the Federal Charter while still a member of the Federation. They had created outside colonies and denied their people the franchise (which explains why the Caldari aligned with the Amarr so quickly). Then, in response to a blockade-where no shots were fired, the Caldari destroyed Nouvelle Rouvenor.
Saya Ishikari wrote:

Then I assume you're prepared to provide proof? Hard facts? Surely you, as someone who holds a doctorate, can understand the need for a representation of said interactions for those who have naught but your opinion otherwise?

Now, as for your views of 'not letting the megacorps take power', and not 'leaving the Federal charter '... I suggest you grab some more classes, ma'am. The Deksam were essentially already in place when the Caldari and Gallente made contact, and simply grew from threre. They're as much a part of our culture as the voluval is a part of Minmatar life. It's an embarrassingly ignorant statement, akin to suggesting that the Gallente "shake off the yoke of democracy".

I give you the introduction to chapter 5 of "Sister against Brother, the Caldari Betrayal of Democracy," by Jillian Hibson, Ph. D., a textbook from my undergrad years. Yes, corporations were already in place, but corporations are never supposed to run government, nor supplant the elected leaders of the people. The big eight launched a bloodless coup that took control of the Caldari society and have kept the people under their thumb ever since
Quote:
Tensions hit fever pitch between the Caldari states and the Federation in FC33 (23154AD). By this point, the Caldari megacorporations had become immensely influential on the Caldari homeworld and other territories within the Federation, thanks to the wealth and power they had generated by their secret colonies. It was often the case that CEOs would be seen to speak with more authority on Caldari matters than state or colony leaders would (who were no more than corporate puppets), something certain Gallente were wary about, but nothing that Federation law had any sort of mechanisms against.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

Again, James, bill us and then leave us alone. I'd be willing to pay reparations for what were clearly breaches of the Federal Charter. Might have to apply the damages inflicted in the blockade and bombardment against them, but at least there'd be an end to this.

I think that most would be satisfied with reparations in the form of all claims to Caldari Prime being relinquished.
I'd like to hold a class on the sunk cost fallacy. The Caldari and Matari could attend.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#314 - 2014-02-06 01:39:00 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
None of us will find a lasting peace until we hold the others' view.

Is a little faith and understanding really all that much to ask of you?

I appreciate your sentiment Miss Scherezad and will not disagree with it, but I have no interest in holding any "view" other than my own.

But still you are correct.

There is nothing to be gained in this perennial argument.

In it the truth becomes a lie and right, a hollow accusation.

“Here also are the heralds of his praise."
Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#315 - 2014-02-06 01:51:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Saya Ishikari
Thank you for revealing your true colors. I'll call you "doctor" once you've earned the title by more than sitting through classes. I can see quite clearly that you have no interest at all in knowledge, discourse, or even fact. What a shame, and I say that without sarcasm... I've met several UoC graduates who were true bastions of knowledge and intent on furthering it.

In closing, it surprises me that a certain philosophy from the classic Garoun era has never turned up in your extensive studies... "Truth comes in pieces from all those who lived it."- Jorin D'chevalier, A Poets Perspective, War and Peace in Our Time, written 754 years before first contact between the Caldari and Gallente, and clearly forgotten. Miss Gridherst, you're a Federation mouthpiece, nothing more, and I'll not waste another breath in answer to your biased assertions. Rikaato ti uaaka.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#316 - 2014-02-06 01:52:05 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Scherezad wrote:
None of us will find a lasting peace until we hold the others' view.

Is a little faith and understanding really all that much to ask of you?

I appreciate your sentiment Miss Scherezad and will not disagree with it, but I have no interest in holding any "view" other than my own.

But still you are correct.

There is nothing to be gained in this perennial argument.

In it the truth becomes a lie and right, a hollow accusation.

You're one of the few I know that I respect that from, Mr Syagrius. We can't simply change our opinions as we might our jackets; belief systems are not coats. I said what I did less to ask for people to change their own minds, as to envision the world in which their minds were changed. That vision is the first step, after all.

I hope that your visions of the future will one day be as bright.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#317 - 2014-02-06 01:52:50 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Again, James, bill us and then leave us alone. I'd be willing to pay reparations for what were clearly breaches of the Federal Charter. Might have to apply the damages inflicted in the blockade and bombardment against them, but at least there'd be an end to this.

How very little you understand us.

Let us at least agree none are innocent.

There was a time as you well know that I supported the return of Caldari Prime to the State under certain conditions.

An honorable peace I thought.

That time has past.

“Here also are the heralds of his praise."
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#318 - 2014-02-06 02:05:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Lyka Gridherst wrote:

I give you the introduction to chapter 5 of "Sister against Brother, the Caldari Betrayal of Democracy," by Jillian Hibson, Ph. D., a textbook from my undergrad years. Yes, corporations were already in place, but corporations are never supposed to run government, nor supplant the elected leaders of the people. The big eight launched a bloodless coup that took control of the Caldari society and have kept the people under their thumb ever since


I have to express a degree of amusement here because the very fact that you refer to the fact the Big Six (Lai Dai and Nugoeihuvei were only admitted to the CEP after the formation of the State) managed a, "Bloodless coup" as you describe would appear that the majority of Caldari rejected liberal-democracy and the socio-political structure of the Federation (And still do, to this day) in accordance and agreement with the sentiments expressed by Mathias Sobaseki before the New Oryioni Collective. It is impossible to betray a political structure that was never prescribed to, nor a Federal system that sought to impose Gallentean interests and cultural hegemony through a centralization of power and authority that was inimitable with that of the colonies founded by Caldari corporations.

As for your assertion that corporations are never supposed to run a government I would say the past two hundred years of the existence of the Caldari State makes clear the fallacy of such a sentiment apparent.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#319 - 2014-02-06 02:25:48 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Again, James, bill us and then leave us alone. I'd be willing to pay reparations for what were clearly breaches of the Federal Charter. Might have to apply the damages inflicted in the blockade and bombardment against them, but at least there'd be an end to this.

How very little you understand us.

Let us at least agree none are innocent.

There was a time as you well know that I supported the return of Caldari Prime to the State under certain conditions.

An honorable peace I thought.

That time has past.


I completely agree that none of them were innocent. The question to my mind is less how we should respond to ancient insults and more how we should craft a peace for the modern day - even if that peace is aimed more at separation than amicable union. After my year on the front, a quiet separation appeals to me.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#320 - 2014-02-06 02:27:10 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Lyka Gridherst wrote:

I give you the introduction to chapter 5 of "Sister against Brother, the Caldari Betrayal of Democracy," by Jillian Hibson, Ph. D., a textbook from my undergrad years. Yes, corporations were already in place, but corporations are never supposed to run government, nor supplant the elected leaders of the people. The big eight launched a bloodless coup that took control of the Caldari society and have kept the people under their thumb ever since


I have to express a degree of amusement here because the very fact that you refer to the fact the Big Six (Lai Dai and Nugoeihuvei were only admitted to the CEP after the formation of the State) managed a, "Bloodless coup" as you describe would appear that the majority of Caldari rejected liberal-democracy and the socio-political structure of the Federation (And still do, to this day) in accordance and agreement with the sentiments expressed by Mathias Sobaseki before the New Oryioni Collective. It is impossible to betray a political structure that was never prescribed to, nor a Federal system that sought to impose Gallentean interests and cultural hegemony through a centralization of power and authority that was inimitable with that of the colonies founded by Caldari corporations.

As for your assertion that corporations are never supposed to run a government I would say the past two hundred years of the existence of the Caldari State makes clear the fallacy of such a sentiment apparent.


Don't forget the strawman argument that we deny our citizens the franchise, when in fact all we do is make them earn it so that they have a stake in the decisions they help make.

A single voting share, Doctor, is the price of the Franchise in the State.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.