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Public Consultation: Caldari State Security
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Lyka Gridherst
Doomheim
#21 - 2014-02-05 21:41:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyka Gridherst
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Did a Matari just accuse me of having an inferiority complex? That is hilarious.

Seriously. Paging an Amarrian to accuse me of having no sense of humour and a Gallente to accuse me of having no restraint.

I've not met many Caldari; are they all as racist as you?
Before anyone replies: yes, irony.
N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#22 - 2014-02-05 22:21:39 UTC  |  Edited by: N'maro Makari
Stitcher wrote:
Hakatain-haan has always been prickly. I hope my Kirjuunet understand that when it comes to Synenose of all people asking questions about State and megacorporate security, I don't find the smokescreen words "open source" to be remotely comforting.

The security and political stability of the State is nobody's business but the Caldari's and those we invite to the conversation. call that prickly if you like, but where I'm from that's called standard procedure.


Mr Hakatain, the last time the Caldari State de-stabilized it sparked a war that ended with a Titan sitting above Caldari Prime for years. In the same way, when the Minmatar Republic de-stabilized, it ended in the biggest single fleet action and loss of life since the rebellion. This is not a place to debate the rights and wrongs of either, but it should put across in no uncertain way why it matters to pay attention to the stability of the cluster, Caldari included.

Stitcher wrote:
If it's public doman, Pilot Makari can go look it up for himself - he doesn't need to have the facts repeated at him.


Knowledge is more than just fact. Fact is useless without interpretation. What I am looking for is a variety of perspective. If you are unable to provide it, then perhaps we should stop here, it will be unproductive for both of us otherwise.

Lyka Gridherst wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Did a Matari just accuse me of having an inferiority complex? That is hilarious.

Seriously. Paging an Amarrian to accuse me of having no sense of humour and a Gallente to accuse me of having no restraint.

I've not met many Caldari; are they all as racist as you?
Before anyone replies: yes, irony.


Ms Gridherst, please, this is not the place to trade jabs. Could you please leave it for another time?

**Vherokior **
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#23 - 2014-02-05 22:28:57 UTC  |  Edited by: TomHorn
Some of us who are Provists and supported Heth, who have not been arrested or chased out the State have now signed up to the militia and are fighting in the war.

We have been accepted into the militia even though we are known provists and many of us have earned promotions fighting against the Federation.
Lyka Gridherst
Doomheim
#24 - 2014-02-05 22:33:07 UTC
N'maro Makari wrote:


Lyka Gridherst wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Did a Matari just accuse me of having an inferiority complex? That is hilarious.

Seriously. Paging an Amarrian to accuse me of having no sense of humour and a Gallente to accuse me of having no restraint.

I've not met many Caldari; are they all as racist as you?
Before anyone replies: yes, irony.


Ms Gridherst, please, this is not the place to trade jabs. Could you please leave it for another time?

Dr. Gridherst, please.
I simply made a joke and was subjected to a racist tirade.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#25 - 2014-02-05 22:45:23 UTC
N'maro Makari wrote:
Knowledge is more than just fact. Fact is useless without interpretation. What I am looking for is a variety of perspective. If you are unable to provide it, then perhaps we should stop here, it will be unproductive for both of us otherwise.


Well, I did my best to provide. Hope it was useful.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#26 - 2014-02-05 22:52:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Makoto Priano
Stitcher wrote:
Hakatain-haan has always been prickly.


On review, Hakatain-haan, I used the appropriate honorific in my post. Was I insufficiently deferential? Or is it more that you worried that a member of the Liberal bloc would take issue with your associates? If so, I can't help but wonder what this says of your associates-- who, if I recall correctly, engaged in an abortive war against a noted State-loyal corporate entity not long before you joined them.

Now, far be it from me to speak well of PYRE; they've caused me some considerable concern in recent days. Despite this, I can't help but wonder what it says of you, Hakatain-haan, when you are so defensive over an honorific properly used.

Lyke Gridherst wrote:
Dr. Gridherst, please.
I simply made a joke and was subjected to a racist tirade.


And in turn, Tuulinen-haan made a joke and was subjected to a tirade.

Please, both of you, calm yourselves. Take a moment to read the other's jibe with the humor it was intended, instead of with the ill humor it was received. If indeed you still take offense, realize that it is the same spirit that caused the other to take offense. Either both or neither of you should have right to this.

Edit; on review, I realize that Hakatain-haan may have italicized the honorific not to stress it, but instead of highlight a un-translated item. If so, my apologies for lashing out. If not, well.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Hamish Grayson
#27 - 2014-02-05 23:25:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Hamish Grayson
N'maro Makari wrote:
Stitcher wrote:
I don't see what business this issue is of The Synenose Accord's.

We want to know the lay of the land as it appears from the outside looking in,


The way the land lays ins none of your concern
Makoto Priano wrote:
Hakatain-haan seems to be becoming more prickly since he joined Alexylva Paradox in their wormhole system. Curious.

I would say that his replies were on the more extreme polite and diplomatic end of the spectrum of appropirate responses.
N'maro Makari wrote:
Mr Hakatain, the last time the Caldari State de-stabilized it sparked a war that ended with a Titan sitting above Caldari Prime for years...This is not a place to debate the rights and wrongs of eithe


The disposition of Caldari military equipment within Caldari space is truly not your business, neither in the form of the former Titan over our home nor the reallocation CPD's assets.

Perhaps you are not aware of this particular facet of Caldari culture, but due to our history as a people we consider foreigners meddling in our internal affairs to be extremely offensive. Further, the suggesting that we do not have the right to do with Caldari Prime as we please (such as parking a Titan in orbit) is to many and unforgivable personal insult.

It's the equivalent of shouting obscenities in an Amarrrian cathedral or tattooing a mock Pale Eye Voluval on your face before taking a stroll on Pator.
Gosakumori Noh
Coven of One
#28 - 2014-02-05 23:32:43 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
Stitcher wrote:
Hakatain-haan has always been prickly.


On review, Hakatain-haan, I used the appropriate honorific in my post.


I was wondering that myself, but it may be that the italics were simply intended to offset the honorific typographically, and were not meant to suggest that you had misapplied the term. Today seems a bit tense. If I were to share my own coping mechanisms for tenseness, it would probably only make matters worse.

Then again, floating in the tropics of a waterworld looking at colorful fish and naked buns is very soothing. As is a giant ring of toe nibbling surrounded by angel fish; vodka mist, less effective in a gravity flow. There is that.
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#29 - 2014-02-05 23:41:01 UTC
Grayson-haan, your interpretation of what is polite and diplomatic is rightly predicated upon a spectrum of appropriate responses-- though perhaps your and my perspective on what is an appropriate response differs.

If your kirjuun in the neighboring dorm are squabbling loudly, is not the peaceable and productive resolution of their squabble your concern as well? While one's response should necessarily be discrete and tactful, that which is by unfortunate necessity public warrants public interest.

Lady Noh, I realized that after, and have appended a note to my response.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#30 - 2014-02-06 00:51:43 UTC
Shiki Mikkyou wrote:

I'm in agreement with this point, and like to communicate this principle to my crews and colleagues. Our plurality, or in some cases redundancy, are what allow us to confront Pilot Makari's third question. Our internal security is bolstered by following the best practices of our various professional and personal functions. By remaining diligent in our duties as citizens, we mitigate the risk of any aberrant behavior that may arise from these parties.


It is often forgotten, I think, that the laws of the State and corporation are as much a philosophy and tradition; a way of life and thinking than they are just words written down for practical benefit. It is the law that codifies the concept of the Greater Good into reality. That we are all equal under the law, and that none are free from the consequences of society, nor the power of the corporation and State that enforces it. It is only through the strict observance and adherence to the laws of ones society and the State that in the citizen is cultivated the virtues of service, obedience, diligence and sacrifice to the greater good of society and the authority of the State.

I admire that you are a woman inculcated with such notions as the true virtue of the citizen, Mikkyou-haani.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Lyka Gridherst
Doomheim
#31 - 2014-02-06 01:06:59 UTC
Gosakumori Noh wrote:
Today seems a bit tense. If I were to share my own coping mechanisms for tenseness, it would probably only make matters worse.


Now I am curious. Obviously not here, as there is a serious discussion, but mail works!
Agiri Falken
Akagi Initiative
#32 - 2014-02-06 02:13:20 UTC
N'maro Makari wrote:
Good Morning.

As anyone not making a deliberate attempt to avoid current affairs will know, Tibus Heth and the Caldari Providence Directorate (CPD) were recently ousted from their position within the Caldari State, a move that is perceived, rightly or wrongly, as something of a return to "business as usual".

However there are some questions myself and others within SYNE's various departments are curious about; The CPD was not just a political affiliation or campaign office, it was for all intents and purposes the first (and so far only) true state-wide internal security service, a paramilitary police and intelligence organization. It seems reasonable to assume that during their tenure they would have amassed resources, carved themselves out a structure within the State and filled roles created for them or created by themselves. So in short, I narrow it down to the following questions:

1) What would have been done with the resources of the CPD that we'rent removed or destroyed by the Provists?
- - Of particular interest are any intelligence, espionage and counter-espionage resources.
- - Any examples?
2) With the disappearance of the CPD, what (if any) "power vacuum" issues have occured?
3) Is there a danger of former members forming a subversive element within the State?
4) Are there any capability gaps in internal security within the State?
- - Is that due to factors other than CPD related?
5) Are there any agencies that seek to take on some of the CPD's former portfolio?

Any answers from Caldari or experts familiar with the subject matter would be greatly appreciated.

*NOTE: On a point of terminology, the words "State" or "Caldari State" are being used as shorthand for referring to the Megacorps, and their handful of shared assets, as a group, not to describe a singular homogeneous entity.

In order...
1. No Provists were left in a position of power. Those that relinquished their positions were folded into the existing apparatus. Those that wouldn't were removed by force with immediate effect.
2. There aren't any. The CPD created it's own need, and that need wasn't anything we needed.
3. Yes. But they lack support and have people like me looking for them. If you become aware of any such efforts, let the Caldari Business Tribunal know immediately. They're enemies of the State AND Federation, so getting any such situation resolved is a win for both sides.
4. None that didn't exist before, really. The CPD being disbanded actually removed a distraction for pretty much every agency in the State.
5. Not that I'm aware of. Those that try get visits from unhappy people with guns. The closest are the remaining members of the Templis Dragonaurs, who are recognized as ultranationalist terrorists across the Cluster, and should be regarded as such.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#33 - 2014-02-06 02:50:27 UTC
Lyka Gridherst wrote:
Gosakumori Noh wrote:
Today seems a bit tense. If I were to share my own coping mechanisms for tenseness, it would probably only make matters worse.


Now I am curious. Obviously not here, as there is a serious discussion, but mail works!

Have a couple of drinks before you get into that conversation....

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Morgan Wulver
SAYR Reserve Guard
SAYR Galactic
#34 - 2014-02-06 06:11:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Morgan Wulver
TomHorn wrote:
Some of us who are Provists and supported Heth, who have not been arrested or chased out the State have now signed up to the militia and are fighting in the war.

We have been accepted into the militia even though we are known provists and many of us have earned promotions fighting against the Federation.

More on this, as I feel Horn-haan made a fantastic point that needs to be expressed more. Most former Provists and their supporters who hadn't either fought to prolong Heth's regime or been arrested for war crimes seem to be finding complete amnesty within the ranks of the Protectorate. Whatever a pilot's opinions on these men and women might be, their experience and enthusiasm makes them an asset to the standing militia. Most sign on strictly for a chance to have a license to indiscriminately engage kakku at will and cause as much trauma to the Federation as possible out of sure hate. While this is all perfectly acceptable as long as it keeps to proper rules of engagement, the morality of letting these extremists continue to wage war is... Debatable.

Still, for just as many the Provist blues were just an outfit to make pay. Plenty ex-CPD agents folded back into society without any further issues.

The real issues arises with the Templis. While they were briefly thought of as Heth's private army, I think plenty of outsiders are incorrect in thinking that the end of the CPD brought an end to the Dragonaurs. Their order has been around since the Raata Empire and anyone that thinks that an end to the Providence Directorate means an end to the Templis is a fool. It's a tragic irony that members of the organization are still out there doing mercenary work in space and on the ground for the State Peacekeepers.

Kirjuun! Uakan! Teknikiara! Kanpai kameitsamuu! Ra ra ra!
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#35 - 2014-02-06 06:48:29 UTC
Morgan Wulver wrote:


Still, for just as many the Provist blues were just an outfit to make pay. Plenty ex-CPD agents folded back into society without any further issues.


I would tend to agree. I wore the armband of the CPD for over four years with pride and prosecuted my tasks as a Directorate Commissar on more than one occasion when commissioned to do so as an agent. In that time I had the privilege to assist in the cultivation and training of capable operatives to assist in the carrying out of required tasks. Talents that I have no doubt will be utilized as necessary by those former CPD operatives that accept the current political order and the legal authority of the CEP and their respective corporations just as in the past and into the future.



Kurilaivonen|Concern
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#36 - 2014-02-06 15:02:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Makoto Priano wrote:
On review, Hakatain-haan, I used the appropriate honorific in my post. Was I insufficiently deferential? Or is it more that you worried that a member of the Liberal bloc would take issue with your associates? If so, I can't help but wonder what this says of your associates-- who, if I recall correctly, engaged in an abortive war against a noted State-loyal corporate entity not long before you joined them.

Now, far be it from me to speak well of PYRE; they've caused me some considerable concern in recent days. Despite this, I can't help but wonder what it says of you, Hakatain-haan, when you are so defensive over an honorific properly used.


To clarify - the use of italics there was not a case of emphasis, but is how my translation software chooses to flag words that it has not translated and which are not proper nouns. I originally composed my comment in my native dialect, an Ishukone variant of Lonetrek spacer cant, but said "Hakatain-haan" in the correct Napanii manner. When it came to translate my writing into universal standardized communication code for decryption by your own translator, it will have rendered the honorific "-haan" italicized to indicate that it was the original word I had used.

No insult was taken - you are quite right, you had given me no cause to be offended. The sentence was intended as a light-hearted self-deprecating joke in the third person: "Hakatain-haan has always been prickly", rather than agreeing that I have been made more so by my time in ALXVP. It wasn't an indignant defense of my citizenship.

I hope you will forgive my causing such confusion. Such are the dangers of communicating in text rather than via a medium which accurately carries the subtleties of tone and body language.

As for the corporation - I was made an offer of employment with a generous percentage attached. Politically, I don't subscribe to ALXVP's independent stance, and have disagreed with corp leadership over some of our blue standings and some other things. They're being discussed internally.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#37 - 2014-02-06 19:19:17 UTC
Lyka Gridherst wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Did a Matari just accuse me of having an inferiority complex? That is hilarious.

Seriously. Paging an Amarrian to accuse me of having no sense of humour and a Gallente to accuse me of having no restraint.

I've not met many Caldari; are they all as racist as you?
Before anyone replies: yes, irony.


What's so hilarious? Are you claiming that we Matari suffer from some sort of collective neurosis? I sure haven't seen anything of the sort but hey, what do I know? I've only been Minmatar my whole life. Roll

Also, I'd say more xenophobic than outright racist. The Caldari seem to be willing to accept foreigners to some extent so long as said foreigners respect the State's laws and traditions. However, I'm not sure that even those foreigners who fully embrace the principles of Heiian and emigrate to the State are ever fully accepted. On some level I think they'd always be seen as outsiders since they weren't born and raised in the State and immersed in Caldari culture from birth.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#38 - 2014-02-06 20:02:48 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
I'm not sure that even those foreigners who fully embrace the principles of Heiian and emigrate to the State are ever fully accepted. On some level I think they'd always be seen as outsiders since they weren't born and raised in the State and immersed in Caldari culture from birth.


That's not what I feel the ideal is, but it is, sadly, what I feel the reality is.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#39 - 2014-02-06 20:18:31 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
On some level I think they'd always be seen as outsiders since they weren't born and raised in the State and immersed in Caldari culture from birth.


Having worked with Achuran, Intaki, Khanid, and even Gallentean colleagues in my time at SuVee I would personally say I respected them because they maintained their own ethnic self-identity, pride in their heritage, respect for their traditions, and thus in displaying dignity and respect for themselves could be afforded but nothing else in return. There is Caldari which is Deteis and Civire, separate and distinct ethnic identity and heritage, and there is Caldari which is the philosophy of working together towards a greater good of society. In this, I always recognized my colleagues as Civire, Achuran, Intaki, Khanid, or Gallente and respected them as such, just as I recognized them as Caldari for we together worked for the greater good of Sukuuvestaa and the State.

In much the same way, I have come to respect the Minmatar in recent weeks for making it clear that in their way they respect and value their cultural and ethnic heritages as the kin of their clan and Tribe but seek together the betterment of their own society and the realization of their own destiny. Indeed, upon reflection, it would seem that in ignorance I had come to my own erroneous conclusions regarding the Republic and the Matari just as many outsiders might be said to make of the State and Caldari due to lack of understanding and dialogue.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Hamish Grayson
#40 - 2014-02-06 23:54:37 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
If your kirjuun in the neighboring dorm are squabbling loudly, is not the peaceable and productive resolution of their squabble your concern as well?


It’s interesting that you use the Napanii term kirjuun, which means a close friend who is also a member of your production group or unit and of the same rank or social status, to describe a Caldari soldier and a Federal activist.

Are you trying to suggest with your metaphor that in reality we are all equal members of the galactic community of mankind and that we should work together under the principles or reason, equality and mutual respect to achieve prosperity for all of humanity?
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