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Gallente-Caldari Relations, Are They Improving?

First post
Author
Gosakumori Noh
Coven of One
#281 - 2014-02-05 20:27:40 UTC
If everyone was rational, you wouldn't have as much fun poking brains. My goodness, you're a Sebiestor! Speaking of Sebiestor and brains, Valerie, darling, this is perfect. You can study her noodles while she studies yours!

The murder of crows in my own noodles tell me Feythabolis must fall. Er... unless it's already fallen. I do not presently have a map. Although I suppose a year from now would work just as well, and taking a deep breath in the present is probably good for the morale and well-being of all concerned.
Lyka Gridherst
Doomheim
#282 - 2014-02-05 20:41:15 UTC
Gosakumori Noh wrote:
If everyone was rational, you wouldn't have as much fun poking brains. My goodness, you're a Sebiestor! Speaking of Sebiestor and brains, Valerie, darling, this is perfect. You can study her noodles while she studies yours!

The murder of crows in my own noodles tell me Feythabolis must fall. Er... unless it's already fallen. I do not presently have a map. Although I suppose a year from now would work just as well, and taking a deep breath in the present is probably good for the morale and well-being of all concerned.


Well, I'm Matari, but would not really call myself Sebiestor.

Back to the topic at hand, though: I would say that the Gallente-Caldari relations are quite abysmal at the moment and show no signs of improving. As long as the Caldari continue to claim planets in Gallente space, relations will be tepid at best.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#283 - 2014-02-05 20:46:30 UTC
Lyka Gridherst wrote:
Gosakumori Noh wrote:
If everyone was rational, you wouldn't have as much fun poking brains. My goodness, you're a Sebiestor! Speaking of Sebiestor and brains, Valerie, darling, this is perfect. You can study her noodles while she studies yours!

The murder of crows in my own noodles tell me Feythabolis must fall. Er... unless it's already fallen. I do not presently have a map. Although I suppose a year from now would work just as well, and taking a deep breath in the present is probably good for the morale and well-being of all concerned.


Well, I'm Matari, but would not really call myself Sebiestor.

Back to the topic at hand, though: I would say that the Gallente-Caldari relations are quite abysmal at the moment and show no signs of improving. As long as the Caldari continue to claim planets in Gallente space, relations will be tepid at best.


Shouldn't you limit yourself to speaking on matters which you're actually qualified and/or experienced regarding?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Jace Sarice
#284 - 2014-02-05 20:49:23 UTC
As long as parts of the Kaalakiota mountains are under Federal administration, there will not be stable relations.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#285 - 2014-02-05 20:55:51 UTC
Jace Sarice wrote:
As long as parts of the Kaalakiota mountains are under Federal administration, there will not be stable relations.

So, I can't build my summer home there?

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Lyka Gridherst
Doomheim
#286 - 2014-02-05 21:01:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyka Gridherst
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Lyka Gridherst wrote:
Gosakumori Noh wrote:
If everyone was rational, you wouldn't have as much fun poking brains. My goodness, you're a Sebiestor! Speaking of Sebiestor and brains, Valerie, darling, this is perfect. You can study her noodles while she studies yours!

The murder of crows in my own noodles tell me Feythabolis must fall. Er... unless it's already fallen. I do not presently have a map. Although I suppose a year from now would work just as well, and taking a deep breath in the present is probably good for the morale and well-being of all concerned.


Well, I'm Matari, but would not really call myself Sebiestor.

Back to the topic at hand, though: I would say that the Gallente-Caldari relations are quite abysmal at the moment and show no signs of improving. As long as the Caldari continue to claim planets in Gallente space, relations will be tepid at best.


Shouldn't you limit yourself to speaking on matters which you're actually qualified and/or experienced regarding?

I know it's a foreign concept to Caldari, but, in the Federation, we have freedom of expression.
Jace Sarice
#287 - 2014-02-05 21:10:24 UTC
Lyka Gridherst wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Lyka Gridherst wrote:
Gosakumori Noh wrote:
If everyone was rational, you wouldn't have as much fun poking brains. My goodness, you're a Sebiestor! Speaking of Sebiestor and brains, Valerie, darling, this is perfect. You can study her noodles while she studies yours!

The murder of crows in my own noodles tell me Feythabolis must fall. Er... unless it's already fallen. I do not presently have a map. Although I suppose a year from now would work just as well, and taking a deep breath in the present is probably good for the morale and well-being of all concerned.


Well, I'm Matari, but would not really call myself Sebiestor.

Back to the topic at hand, though: I would say that the Gallente-Caldari relations are quite abysmal at the moment and show no signs of improving. As long as the Caldari continue to claim planets in Gallente space, relations will be tepid at best.


Shouldn't you limit yourself to speaking on matters which you're actually qualified and/or experienced regarding?

I know it's a foreign concept to Caldari, but, in the Federation, we have freedom of expression.


You are reinforcing Tuulinen's question quite handily.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#288 - 2014-02-05 21:17:05 UTC
Lyka Gridherst wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Lyka Gridherst wrote:
Gosakumori Noh wrote:
If everyone was rational, you wouldn't have as much fun poking brains. My goodness, you're a Sebiestor! Speaking of Sebiestor and brains, Valerie, darling, this is perfect. You can study her noodles while she studies yours!

The murder of crows in my own noodles tell me Feythabolis must fall. Er... unless it's already fallen. I do not presently have a map. Although I suppose a year from now would work just as well, and taking a deep breath in the present is probably good for the morale and well-being of all concerned.


Well, I'm Matari, but would not really call myself Sebiestor.

Back to the topic at hand, though: I would say that the Gallente-Caldari relations are quite abysmal at the moment and show no signs of improving. As long as the Caldari continue to claim planets in Gallente space, relations will be tepid at best.


Shouldn't you limit yourself to speaking on matters which you're actually qualified and/or experienced regarding?

I know it's a foreign concept to Caldari, but, in the Federation, we have freedom of expression.


We have that too, we just don't share your belief that expressing yourself foolishly shouldn't carry with it attendant risks - such as mockery from those who know more than you do. In any case, I thought you were a Minmatar attending a Minmatar school? There's no protected free speech in the Republic.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Lyka Gridherst
Doomheim
#289 - 2014-02-05 21:36:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyka Gridherst
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

We have that too, we just don't share your belief that expressing yourself foolishly shouldn't carry with it attendant risks - such as mockery from those who know more than you do. In any case, I thought you were a Minmatar attending a Minmatar school? There's no protected free speech in the Republic.

I'm a Federation citizen, an adjunct professor at UC in the Poli Sci department, teaching at Republic University for a year.
Just curious, you think that the Fed/State diplomatic situation is 'good' and that there can be an arrangement regarding Caldari sovereignty of Caldari Prime?
And where did you get the idea there is not free speech in the Republic? Not that there's a Minmatar Republic anymore, though.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#290 - 2014-02-05 22:05:58 UTC
Have you read any of the travel advisory warnings put out regarding vigilante justice in Republic holdings? It is quite possible for someone to speak their mind, get beaten for it and for law enforcement to shrug.

And yes, speaking as a member of the State Protectorate and card carrying Kalaakiota citizen, there is no reason for the current sovereignty sharing agreement not to continue to be upheld. Both sides paid much in blood and treasure to secure it, and stand to lose much if it breaks down.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Gosakumori Noh
Coven of One
#291 - 2014-02-05 22:08:01 UTC
Lyka Gridherst wrote:
And where did you get the idea there is not free speech in the Republic? Not that there's a Minmatar Republic anymore, though.


Huh. That is an interesting point. Under the new regime, does each Tribe uphold the personal rights of all Matari, or only of the Tribe? If a Brutor yells fire in a Thukker theater on Matari Uno, whose definition of protected speech prevails?

As I understand it from that corporation of transplanted Sabik corpse thieves, if someone dies as a result of this speech (expression that would be unprotected throughout a civilized empire), "blood jurisdiction" kicks in and the Brutor would be handed over to the Tribe of the victim. If there were victims from multiple Tribes, then based upon Tribal precedent with regard to Midular's assassin, pieces of the Brutor would be turned over to each Tribe. If a "follow the harm" rationale prevailed in Matari justice (I realize there are at least two oxymorons in the preceding), then it would seem likely that Matari only have personal rights derived their own Tribe.

Of course, if it were later determined that the wrong Brutor had been divided up, say after Federation audio specialists determined that the voice could not have been his, well, that would make for a bit of a "blood jurisdiction fail cascade," wouldn't it?

I have some vague memory of a play from an ancient race of nude sunbathers that called down the goddess of wisdom in battle to explain why blood jurisdiction was foolish, largely for the fail cascade reason. Apparently every civilization in our Cluster learned that lesson except... one.
Lyka Gridherst
Doomheim
#292 - 2014-02-05 22:15:11 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Have you read any of the travel advisory warnings put out regarding vigilante justice in Republic holdings? It is quite possible for someone to speak their mind, get beaten for it and for law enforcement to shrug.

And yes, speaking as a member of the State Protectorate and card carrying Kalaakiota citizen, there is no reason for the current sovereignty sharing agreement not to continue to be upheld. Both sides paid much in blood and treasure to secure it, and stand to lose much if it breaks down.

That's not what we measure freedom of speech against. There is no systemic government action suppressing speech in the Republic.

The issue is not whether the Caldari will accept the current situation, but the Gallente citizenry. My read is that they will not.

Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#293 - 2014-02-05 22:32:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Saya Ishikari
Lyka Gridherst wrote:
Gosakumori Noh wrote:
If everyone was rational, you wouldn't have as much fun poking brains. My goodness, you're a Sebiestor! Speaking of Sebiestor and brains, Valerie, darling, this is perfect. You can study her noodles while she studies yours!

The murder of crows in my own noodles tell me Feythabolis must fall. Er... unless it's already fallen. I do not presently have a map. Although I suppose a year from now would work just as well, and taking a deep breath in the present is probably good for the morale and well-being of all concerned.


Well, I'm Matari, but would not really call myself Sebiestor.

Back to the topic at hand, though: I would say that the Gallente-Caldari relations are quite abysmal at the moment and show no signs of improving. As long as the Caldari continue to claim planets in Gallente space, relations will be tepid at best.

If you're referring to Home, then the same could be said for the Minmatar and Matari. Give it back to the Empire and all's well, right? If you're referring to the war zones, I'm not alone in saying I wouldn't mind putting that conflict to bed and moving on. Frankly, I have to agree with Pieter regarding your expertise on the matter... It's one thing to preach to a classroom, another to live it, especially on our end. Were the roles reversed, I suspect you might understand far more clearly, ma'am. If you actually want to experience capsuleer politics, grab a frigate, the stars await, and the perspective is far better, I promise you.

As for the matter of acceptance of the current treaty, far more can be lost than gained by breaking it. What proof do you offer to support your view that it is not going go be accepted as a solution by the citizenry of the Federation?

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117

Lyka Gridherst
Doomheim
#294 - 2014-02-05 22:55:31 UTC
Saya Ishikari wrote:

If you're referring to Home, then the same could be said for the Minmatar and Matari. Give it back to the Empire and all's well, right? If you're referring to the war zones, I'm not alone in saying I wouldn't mind putting that conflict to bed and moving on. Frankly, I have to agree with Pieter regarding your expertise on the matter... It's one thing to preach to a classroom, another to live it, especially on our end. Were the roles reversed, I suspect you might understand far more clearly, ma'am. If you actually want to experience capsuleer politics, grab a frigate, the stars await, and the perspective is far better, I promise you.

As for the matter of acceptance of the current treaty, far more can be lost than gained by breaking it. What proof do you offer to support your view that it is not going go be accepted as a solution by the citizenry of the Federation?

I am speaking of Caldari Prime only. The CEMWPA is a whole different can of worms that I don't even want to get into. Nor do I have a particular desire to delve into the relationship between the Matari and the Empire.
My assertion is based on living in Caille and simply interacting with people. As long as the Caldari claim Caldari Prime, not very many feel safe. You may be right that there is more to lose, but never underestimate the need of people to feel safe.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#295 - 2014-02-05 23:03:40 UTC
With all due respect, Doctor, so long as the Federation maintains a claim to Home it SHOULDN'T feel safe. And I am quite comfortable that they do not.

We are many things, but not that. Never that.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#296 - 2014-02-05 23:05:14 UTC
I imagine our two peoples will continue at an impasse then Ms. Gridherst. As long as elements within the Federation look to Home as their property, or our claim on our Homeworld as a threat, then tensions will continue to be cool at the very best.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb

Lyka Gridherst
Doomheim
#297 - 2014-02-05 23:22:34 UTC
If the Caldari did not want to lose Caldari Prime, they could have started by not breaking the Federal Charter. They could have decided not to let megacorps take power. The 'big eight' have been breaking treaties and agreements for centuries, why should anyone expect them to honor the current arrangement?
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#298 - 2014-02-05 23:32:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
Lyka Gridherst wrote:
If the Caldari did not want to lose Caldari Prime, they could have started by not breaking the Federal Charter. They could have decided not to let megacorps take power. The 'big eight' have been breaking treaties and agreements for centuries, why should anyone expect them to honor the current arrangement?


Remind me to wait for you to breach the regulations surrounding your University expense account to that I can feel justified in burning your house to the ground, Doctor.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#299 - 2014-02-05 23:38:48 UTC
Lyka Gridherst wrote:
If the Caldari did not want to lose Caldari Prime, they could have started by not breaking the Federal Charter. They could have decided not to let megacorps take power. The 'big eight' have been breaking treaties and agreements for centuries, why should anyone expect them to honor the current arrangement?


Tell me Ms. Gridherst. Does it say in the Federal Charter that a member, even a signatory member, is barred from leaving that agreement if they so chose? and our Ancestors decision to place their trust in the Okusaikas rather than in the Federal Senate is irrelevant.

I am intrigued, however, on the number of treaties the Okusaikas have been allegedly breaking for years. Care to list them for me?

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb

James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#300 - 2014-02-05 23:45:12 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:
I imagine our two peoples will continue at an impasse then Ms. Gridherst. As long as elements within the Federation look to Home as their property, or our claim on our Homeworld as a threat, then tensions will continue to be cool at the very best.

So it is still your intention to dispossess the Federal citizens who make Caldari Prime their home?

You intend to breach the fragile peace we now enjoy?