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New dev blog: Introducing Cerberus

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Author
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
#61 - 2011-11-25 20:30:38 UTC
This is cool.

Might help get more players who do not speak or understand english well.

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.

roigon
TURN LEFT
#62 - 2011-11-25 20:30:48 UTC
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
Krans Hopeson wrote:
I've been involved in localisation of several software projects, using C, Python and Scheme.

Why is CCP re-inventing the wheel with this? gettext has supported translating messages with differing number conventions forever and a day. Roll


Because a lot of what we say in English contains metaphor and idiom. For insance, I can say 'hit the road' in English, and someone that speaks English to a reasonable degree will probably know what I'm saying. On the other hand, if I were to say 'Hit the road' in French or Japanese, someone that's not familiar with English idiom would hear me saying that I'm going to physically assault a roadway.


gettext is a widely used generic solution to facilitating translation in applications. Not the translation itself obviously.

You basically use coded keyword strings in place of the text and tell gettext to translate those, then in actual translation files you have the actual translations of those keywords.

The benefit of using a pre-existing solution like gettext is that a lot of things have already been thought about and implemented, and a lot of developers and perhaps more important translators will already be familiar with the way it works and the associated syntax.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#63 - 2011-11-25 20:40:12 UTC
Fact is that many people don't play Eve just because they're english averse, for whatever reason like education or stupid people trolling others english level.

This is an excellent idea that will certainly bring more people and this can only be good for all of us CCP/players

Now I'll most probably never go there not because of some nasty stuff but because we're better trying to comunicate all together and try to understand eatch other, improves other people like me English level of comprehension and things are far easy to improve/understand when we all talk the same language, even when we do a lot of grammar mistakes, doesn't matter, intelligent people will always understand, stupid ones you can use academic english whatsoever they will never understand anyway.

Thing is that separated groups are already there and don't like or try to comunicate with others because of langage barrier, using local clients will just bring more people witch is good but also more understanding issues between players witch is also good for destroying stuff. Lol
Rattus Norwegius
#64 - 2011-11-25 20:57:47 UTC
CCP Shiny wrote:


Hi, this is about the way code handles the different alphabets living next to each other. You can find some very interesting info here.



Ooooh! Shiny! Big smileBig smile
Peter Tjordenskiold
#65 - 2011-11-25 21:55:13 UTC
To have a localized client is necessary, but for myself as an german player, I would never use the localized client. Many of the expressions used in game are a sort of a standart. The challenge to localize the EVE client must be funny.

Some wishes:

1) translate locally on the client. It's ugly to see probes with russian or german description in space
2) make the UI fast switchable, so that a pilot can use english to adapt his alliance, but can press a key to read a longer description in his language. This would be great for many pilots trying to interact with other pilots from the hole world, but without excellent english knowledge.
3) Don't translate types. It's simply not working when it comes to work together.
Dareth Meroul
OMRE
#66 - 2011-11-25 23:16:31 UTC
Peter Tjordenskiold wrote:
2) make the UI fast switchable, so that a pilot can use english to adapt his alliance, but can press a key to read a longer description in his language. This would be great for many pilots trying to interact with other pilots from the hole world, but without excellent english knowledge.

This is a nice idea, and would go a long way towards easing the difficulties for multi-lingual corps & fleets. It kind of reminds me of the functionality in Google Chrome, where you hover over a bit of text to see it in the original language... but reversed in this example.
Alastar Frost
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2011-11-26 01:21:15 UTC
Ok, after the initial post, I checked the options menue and the feature isnt there, so here again:

Add a shortcut that allows to temprarily switch the language of the client. As long as you hold the key, the languge switches to your "secondary language".

For people who are not good at english, this allows to play in their native language but get translations fast if they dont know the english name of "whatever" if they want to talk about it in english chat.

For the more advanced english speakers, it allows to switch back to the native language for a moment instead of using a dictionary (dual monitors ftw).

The trick is doing this in an instand without going to the esc menue or even closing windows. just hit the buttion and the language switches. If you stop pressing it, it switches back.

I have seen this feature in other games, and i like it. And it shoudnt be too hard to do (i hope. Dont know how the localization part is implemented Cool )
Diplomatic Baggage
Perkone
Caldari State
#68 - 2011-11-26 04:18:05 UTC
Any chance of a Localization for English as opposed to the default of American English? Lol
Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#69 - 2011-11-26 06:55:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyla Skin
I hope that the client language will always be optional. Personally I prefer reading eveclient in english rather than finnish despite living in Finland.

In after the lock :P   - CCP Falcon www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies

CCP Sisyphus
C C P
C C P Alliance
#70 - 2011-11-26 10:17:09 UTC
Peter Tjordenskiold wrote:

Some wishes:

1) translate locally on the client. It's ugly to see probes with russian or german description in space
2) make the UI fast switchable, so that a pilot can use english to adapt his alliance, but can press a key to read a longer description in his language. This would be great for many pilots trying to interact with other pilots from the hole world, but without excellent english knowledge.
3) Don't translate types. It's simply not working when it comes to work together.


Lets go through these - as a lot of others have voiced the same.

1) Translating locally - well, depends. Different parts of the game work in slightly different ways. But our goal is that you will only see text in the chosen language. So if you are using an english client, you will ONLY see english texts, similarly for other languages.

2) We actually got part way to this, but uncovered a heap (technical term there Blink ) of exceptions that confused the issue and are complicated to fix. If we are given some time we'd like to get back to this, but no promises.

3) Right now, as we've said, we're not translating types, locations or NPCs. We're trying to work out how to deal with incomprehensible text though. гибель or 運命 mean nothing to english speakers - just a string of shapes that might be hard to differentiate from other strings... Now think how some japanese or russian speakers might think about english text if they are not comfortable with english?

CCP Sisyphus | Team TriLambda | Team Klang | @CCP_Sisyphus

Avensys
The Waterworks
#71 - 2011-11-26 10:18:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Avensys
German player here - I try the German client about once a year driven by some sort of morbid curiosity but I could never use it permanently.

In my opinion the German translation suffers a lot from trying to translate the terms used by the English client as directly into German as possible.
More often than not the results are extremely cringeworthy.

In the 70s/80s a crazy amount of American SF novels has been translated into German and these translations are usually very readable.

German is no bad language to translate SF content into per se but to produce a reasonable translation you have to be aware of the naming conventions that have formed over the last 50 years in German SF. "Naive" translations just sound extremely uncomfortable & weird.

Sometimes I feel as if the translators responsible for the German client have no prior experience with German SF content (novels, short stories, TV productions, anything) at all and just try to translate EVE the same way they would translate a technical manual.

Please get us some translators that grew up on German Science Fiction novels and have them (re-)do the job!
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2011-11-26 11:26:21 UTC
My native language isn't English but it is (or should be) the world's common language. If you don't know English you are missing out on a lot of business opportunities.
This is my signature. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.  Without me, my signature is useless. Without my signature, I am useless
CCP Ronin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#73 - 2011-11-26 19:01:05 UTC
J3ssica Alba wrote:
My native language isn't English but it is (or should be) the world's common language. If you don't know English you are missing out on a lot of business opportunities.


Doesn't mean you have to miss out on awesome spaceship pewpew though P

CCP Ronin Senior Programmer -- Internationalization

CCP Shiny
C C P
C C P Alliance
#74 - 2011-11-26 19:21:04 UTC
Avensys wrote:
German player here - I try the German client about once a year driven by some sort of morbid curiosity but I could never use it permanently.

In my opinion the German translation suffers a lot from trying to translate the terms used by the English client as directly into German as possible.
More often than not the results are extremely cringeworthy.

In the 70s/80s a crazy amount of American SF novels has been translated into German and these translations are usually very readable.

German is no bad language to translate SF content into per se but to produce a reasonable translation you have to be aware of the naming conventions that have formed over the last 50 years in German SF. "Naive" translations just sound extremely uncomfortable & weird.

Sometimes I feel as if the translators responsible for the German client have no prior experience with German SF content (novels, short stories, TV productions, anything) at all and just try to translate EVE the same way they would translate a technical manual.

Please get us some translators that grew up on German Science Fiction novels and have them (re-)do the job!


I would be interested in an example of a SF novel you would consider a good translation.

CCP Shiny \ Producer NES Localization Services \ @ccp_shiny

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#75 - 2011-11-26 21:23:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
I don't understand much of the technical detail, but, I hope that the community is allowed to have a word in translation, because it's very likely that every community already developed its own jargon, both formal and not so formal, as for what is translated, what not, and how things are translated.

In Spanish, many technical stuff is plain adapted phonetically... so "warp" becomes "warpear", which is not orthodox and makes little baby Jesus cry,but it's a very common word, as "jamear" and "escramblear" and "webear". Many translations fail to use what words the speakers say, and so they defeat their purpose... players will not learn a new jargon and 3rd parties likely will not know what players are actualy using, orthodox or don't, so the developers spend money buying a translation nobody uses because it would force them to use unnatural words, or just learn a new jargon.


To the point: people already is speaking their language when they play EVE, let them have a word on how to make a "standard" localization.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

lachrymus
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#76 - 2011-11-27 01:38:27 UTC
CCP Sisyphus wrote:
smaster wrote:
I want the imperial units for EVE online.
Its not very helpfull if you have to convert every unit scale in the game in feet and pounds.
At least u have included a ingame calculator. THANK YOU Cry


no. just no.

feet/sec for velocity, mass in pounds/tons..
Shocked
(need a brain asplode smiley)

This.

The rest of the world uses metric. Learn it.
Naso Gomez
#77 - 2011-11-27 02:56:23 UTC
Today I learned, the Japanese language doesn't have plurals
mkint
#78 - 2011-11-27 04:40:17 UTC
English speaker here have only been involved with international corps.

What if there were varying levels of localization? A lite translation would have only info tabs translated but attributes and commands would be in English. This would mean those users would recognize jump commands when the fc calls it. They would be able to discuss things like tracking issues that mostly happens on attributes tabs. A japenese lite version might use Japanese characters to spell the English pronunciation. Include a full translation option but the lite version would help with full language integration.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

ZaBob
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2011-11-27 05:34:15 UTC
Naso Gomez wrote:
Today I learned, the Japanese language doesn't have plurals


OK, well, now you can learn that it does, sort of....

For example, consider person: 人 (hito)
And now, let's consider people: 人々 (hitobito -- the second character means to repeat the first, and the consonant part of the sound shifts from "h" to "b"0.

Got it? No, you don't!

Consider man: 男 (otoko)
Consider men: 男たち (otokotachi)

Sometimes, "-tachi" is added to indicate plurals.

But usually, it's just left to context.

And sometimes, you just count:
一個 (ikko)、二個 (niko)、三個 (sanko)
or, hmm,
一つ (hitotsu)、二つ (futatsu)、三つ (mitsu)
or
一枚 (ichimai)、二枚 (nimai)、三枚 (sanmai)
or
一人(hitori),二人 (futari)、三人 (sannin)
or
一本 (ippon), 二本 (nihon)、三本 (sanbon -- there's that shift from "h" to "b' again)
or, well, I really don't know how many ways there are to count in Japanese. I've never counted.

The thing is, in any one context, only one of these will be right. For example, long thin things, like, for example, pencils, will be counted like 一本,二本、三本.

Weird, eh? But you want to know what's MORE weird?

Try coming up with a rule for what preposition to use when, in English. And when to use a direct or indirect object.
ZaBob
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2011-11-27 05:47:33 UTC
mkint wrote:
English speaker here have only been involved with international corps.

What if there were varying levels of localization? A lite translation would have only info tabs translated but attributes and commands would be in English. This would mean those users would recognize jump commands when the fc calls it. They would be able to discuss things like tracking issues that mostly happens on attributes tabs. A japenese lite version might use Japanese characters to spell the English pronunciation. Include a full translation option but the lite version would help with full language integration.


That's a germ of an interesting idea, I think.

Rather than a "lite" mode, I'd suggest a "fleet" mode, that would use the English terms (or perhaps a selectable language) , but have the mouse-over show the native language.

If the FC is speaking English, I'm not sure it would really be helpful to have the "english pronunciation" in Japanese characters. Japanese, being such a strongly syllabic language, really rather mangles the English when you try to force English into it. Any sequence of consonants generally turns into a whole series of syllables, and a lot of information is lost due to the limited selection of consonant sounds to begin with.

There are a grand total of 50 basic syllables, plus 20 hybrids, in the entire language. That's it.

So what works with German or Russian may not work so well with Japanese. I don't have any modern data, but I strongly expect that the typical Japanese Eve player would be quite comfortable with roman letters (romaji) for English terms. You'll find them everywhere from technical literature to advertising. Typically, they only get converted to katakana when they start to become integrated into the language. For example, シェア for "share".