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Discussion - The Fall of Battlecruisers ?

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2014-02-05 11:04:17 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
I disagree with that, or at least partially. As I mentioned somewhere earlier in this thread fleets and blobs don't like versatile ships instead they want specialised and focussed ships&fittings, everything has a role and if you need more roles you simply bring more F1 monkeys. So if someone from a blob perspective states that "BC are now useless" then for that environment he is indeed correct, there's many uses and scenarios where BCs aren't the obvious choice any more but that doesn't mean there's something wrong with them or that it was a balancing mistake.

All it means is that CCP got tired of BC being the go-to ship for just about any use because they overshadowed other ship hulls way too much. I'm not saying they didn't get "left behind" in the rebalancing and I'm not saying they're fine for all uses like they were before. What I'm saying is that I understand the reason it happened and agree to that reasoning.

However, right now there's still issues in regards to ship speeds and shield/armor. Cruisers are slightly too fast (stated as such somewhere in this thread) and there's still the issue of LSE being too god damn powerful meaning armor focussed ships get quite good EHP from being shield fit, allowing the lows to go completely bat **** crazy.


BC needed the "nerf" but they're still fine just not for everybody or every situation, there's nothing wrong with them.



Malcanis wrote:
Are battlecruisers being used less than they used to be? Yes, sure. That's because there has been a massive increase in the number of other viable ships, and if more people are flying ship A, then that means that less are flying ship B.



Pretty much this, and it's a GOOD thing.


Perspective of boob? care to try to find examples of more focused in high level low scale PVP than Pursuit of Happiness ?

We are among the BEST in very small scale combat and we basically forbid our member from using Combat BC unless they absolutely cannot do anything else or have too low skillpoints, or are baiting....

why? Because we know they are mostly horrible, with very few exceptions (bait prophecy, ganking brutix that I can remember)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#42 - 2014-02-05 11:12:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
I think we can all agree that using T2/T3 ships against PVE ravens is much more viable than using a BC.

Let me add to that because it sounds like a snarky reply which it wasn't meant that way. You state that you shun BC becaus they're just not any good, but if you look at the facts you also shun T1 cruisers and BS and instead fly T2/T3 or pirate/faction most of the time. So it's not about "BC sucks" but rather "non T1 is better duh".

Also note that we're in the same line of "work" really, I just do it on a smaller scale. For what we do there's 3 important factors to consider:

1) we operate in a controlled scenario; scouts everywhere, neutral alts hiding in plain sight and generally "less capable" targets, that means we can bring out the juicy ships without really risking them

2) sig radius and base resists, since we tend to go against targets who adhere to the "bigger is better" idea most of the time we're better off using small sig ships with good resists, especially with links, to gain the advantage

3) size, simply put we like ships with good "dps per m3" because we make use of Orcas


That means we don't favour BC, partly because we can get away with expensive funky stuff, partly it's too big and low base resist and mostly because it's too big in size. Several T2/T3 cruisers fit snugly into an Orca SMA, BC do not. That doesn't mean BC in general suck, it just means that if you specialise enough there's better options.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#43 - 2014-02-05 11:55:42 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
if you decide to forego mobility.. battleships outclass them completely

except tracking. and sig radius. and mass. and cost. and skill requirements.
but ok sure...

There is no Bob.

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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#44 - 2014-02-05 12:43:32 UTC
While i think CCP isn't quite as consistent with their speeds as they should be.

Stats wise BC's are mostly fine.. Yes they are a niche ships.. they are like cruiser dessies.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Steph Livingston
Neko's Blanket
#45 - 2014-02-05 14:55:08 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
While i think CCP isn't quite as consistent with their speeds as they should be.

Stats wise BC's are mostly fine.. Yes they are a niche ships.. they are like cruiser dessies.


Ok, quick question for you... what niche do you think BCs occupy?

They used to be the medium ground between cruisers and battleships, but that's not really the case anymore. Between Assault and T3 cruisers the BCs kinda lost it's place as the heavy medium weapon platform. Yes, they can fit Command links but that wasn't the original point of the class, just an effect of Command ships being placed at T2.

I know part of the re-balancing process is to give each ship a distinct role, and this is something BCs lack currently. Why take a BC over a Assault, T3, or BS? As much as I'd like to, I can't answer that right now.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#46 - 2014-02-05 15:15:36 UTC
If you don't like BS lock speed and tracking, cruiser EHP or T2/T3 cost and SP requirements.


Following your logic you could also go "what's the point of flying t1 cruisers? HAC and T3 are much better, they're slower than frigates and don't have the EHP of BC". For years the BC the obvious ship choice, for years it was OP. Now it's an option, which is as it should be.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#47 - 2014-02-05 15:22:54 UTC
Side note - many FW pilots would love to have BC fights. Mechanics were changed so that they won't fit into any but the most rare plex. So they gather dust.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2014-02-05 16:11:29 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
if you decide to forego mobility.. battleships outclass them completely

except tracking. and sig radius. and mass. and cost. and skill requirements.
but ok sure...



Sig is not relevant ifyouare not moving

Tracking is mildly relevant.. and easily outclassed by the presense of large neuts that. How in hell MASS is relevant when you decided to not move?

You know at least what forego the mobility means?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2014-02-05 16:12:36 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
If you don't like BS lock speed and tracking, cruiser EHP or T2/T3 cost and SP requirements.


Following your logic you could also go "what's the point of flying t1 cruisers? HAC and T3 are much better, they're slower than frigates and don't have the EHP of BC". For years the BC the obvious ship choice, for years it was OP. Now it's an option, which is as it should be.



problem is.. an option when the place to select hat option does nto exist (or almsot doe snto exist) means the ship is bad in game right now.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#50 - 2014-02-05 16:21:09 UTC
This thread makes me wanna run a Brutix gang.

JUSTK is recruiting
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2014-02-05 16:25:43 UTC
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
This thread makes me wanna run a Brutix gang.



As I said earlier.. in a moderate sized group, brutixes are ok, because of the very high damage.

But on smaller scale they are shadowed by cruisers or battleships dependign if you need stayign power or mobility.

Its nto so much a BC problem as of now but a lack of reason to forego HALF of your mobility but still needign to be faster than battleships...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#52 - 2014-02-05 16:31:59 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
This thread makes me wanna run a Brutix gang.



As I said earlier.. in a moderate sized group, brutixes are ok, because of the very high damage.

But on smaller scale they are shadowed by cruisers or battleships dependign if you need stayign power or mobility.

Its nto so much a BC problem as of now but a lack of reason to forego HALF of your mobility but still needign to be faster than battleships...


Most of my combat comes in moderately sized groups where BCs definitely have a place. They definitely aren't the choice for 250 man fleets though, I'll grant you that, but that doesn't mean they aren't filling a role.

JUSTK is recruiting
Shpenat
Ironman Inc.
#53 - 2014-02-05 17:09:49 UTC
Combat battlecruisers in my experience are competing on the same field as some HACs and/or faction cruisers. The problem is that the unique role they are supposed to play does not make sense current EvE.

They are suppose to be able to boost they fellow gang members, but with existence of OGB why would anyone do that? CCP know that simply forcing boosting on grid is not going to work and entire system needs the overhaul. But that requires developers time which they need to justify. I doubt that they can do it right now as there are other more critical problems.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#54 - 2014-02-05 19:17:49 UTC
The "unique role" they have is that they can take a hit, dish it out, be decently fast, good insurance and require relatively low SP. A Cane will still curb stomp most HACS if you let it and that means people who can't fly T2/T3 or don't want to commit that amount of uninsurable ship cost have an option.

Seriously, "T1 sucks because T2" is dumb logic.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#55 - 2014-02-05 20:49:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Chessur wrote:
Odithia wrote:
Denson022 wrote:

Chessur said that using CBC as a link ship is worthless and it's better to go T3 since you can cloak and probe.

So let's say CCP removes the ability to fit Links...then what kind of Bonus could they receive instead without making em completely overpowered???

I think removing off grid link would see the glorious day of battlecruiser back in every gangs, at least as booster ships.
Now it's better to uses something the ennemy can't see, both creating surprise and preventing them from destroying the support ship.
And T3 seems much better for that.


Forcing links to go on grid would be the worst thing that CCP could do. That would be a huge boost for blob warfare, and make solo / small gang really difficult. Links should be out right removed, instead of that horrible option.


lol... If you are using links, you are not soloing...

Yes, links allow you to take on a larger force with an inferior one, but that's because they are overpowered. Links are the most BROKEN mechanic in EvE right now, and absolutely should be "on grid".

I think 3 things will help BC's quite a bit:
1.) Make Command Processors a Rig. Frankly, the fitting requirements for squeezing on command processors and warfare links is too extreme. Making Command Processors a rig will open up much coveted midslots, reduce the over-taxing fitting requirements, limit the number of links a single ship may utilize, and will be an overall boon to t1 BCs.

2.) Move Links on grid. Rapid deployment gives a 30% boost to speed, which is equivalent to adding 3x Overdrive II's to every ship in fleet. Passive Defense adds 30% resists to armor, which is equivalent to giving every ship in fleet a C-type EANM. In a game where you spend a billion isk on implants just to increase the speed of a SINGLE ship by 25%, there is no way you can justify the benefits provided by your POS-hugging link alt. It is a completely untenable position, although we understand why you have it. You have it because people underestimate the benefits provided by links, and willingly engage because they don't comprehend how much the odds of engagement are skewed.

3.) Increase CBC warp speed to be even faster than cruisers (perhaps dessie level). This puts them in a unique area, where they can still chase down cruisers and move about, but they aren't king on the field as they need tackle to hold targets for them to get on top of.
Hadrian Blackstone
Yamato Holdings
#56 - 2014-02-05 20:53:53 UTC
Incindir Mauser wrote:

Chessur hit the nail on the head.

Cruisers are now the go-to workhorse for most small-gang and soloists. Before the tiericide holocaust the mantra for just about every new pilot (myself included) was to train HML II's and a Drake or AC's and a 'Cane. Re-Sebo Insta-lock Hurricane gate-camps were dumb as hell. Up until the HML nerf, Drakes were pretty much used by everyone, everywhere, to do everything. CCP nerfed HML's instead of addressing the Drake's real problem which was it's battleship sized tank.

So HML's got the nerfbat... "to bring them in line with other long range weapons...". And then CCP buffed Beams, Rails, and Arty just a couple months after they gutted HML's damage and projection.

So the Drake was neutered via weapons nerf. The Hurricane PG/CPU was nerfed several times on top of the TE nerf.

Tier 3 ABC's now the jobs that CBC's used to do, only better and for a little more ISK per hull.

T1 CBC's pretty much exist as training wheels for new pilots.




I'd like to nominate this for the most EVE terminology used in a single post.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#57 - 2014-02-06 07:37:56 UTC
Steph Livingston wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
While i think CCP isn't quite as consistent with their speeds as they should be.

Stats wise BC's are mostly fine.. Yes they are a niche ships.. they are like cruiser dessies.


Ok, quick question for you... what niche do you think BCs occupy?

They used to be the medium ground between cruisers and battleships, but that's not really the case anymore. Between Assault and T3 cruisers the BCs kinda lost it's place as the heavy medium weapon platform. Yes, they can fit Command links but that wasn't the original point of the class, just an effect of Command ships being placed at T2.

I know part of the re-balancing process is to give each ship a distinct role, and this is something BCs lack currently. Why take a BC over a Assault, T3, or BS? As much as I'd like to, I can't answer that right now.


I'm quite sure that statwise BC's are exactly between cruisers and battleships. Is that a useful place to be these days? Not overly.. But they are still pretty nice ships for the price you pay for them, considering tank/firepower.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2014-02-06 09:42:23 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
The "unique role" they have is that they can take a hit, dish it out, be decently fast, good insurance and require relatively low SP. A Cane will still curb stomp most HACS if you let it and that means people who can't fly T2/T3 or don't want to commit that amount of uninsurable ship cost have an option.

Seriously, "T1 sucks because T2" is dumb logic.



No one in its sane mind insures ships in eve anymore.. not since the insurance changes years ago.

Insurance is amechanic that coudl be removed and no one would miss it.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2014-02-06 09:45:51 UTC
As long as BC warp speed is slower than cruisers they have no pratical use in small gang warfare. NO enough reaction time.

Same with commadn ships.. how often you see command ships fighting? except on bait situations that is very rare. Why? becasue if you are in a hurry to get to a place.. the standard warp speed is 3. BC cannot keep up. IF you do no t havea hurry and can repare (for example you are going there to defend a POCO, just an small example for small scale fleets) then you better take the most from that time and bring a fleet of domis.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Odithia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2014-02-06 10:45:21 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:


Same with commadn ships.. how often you see command ships fighting?

They were rare before the warp speed change.
They are a rare sight because you are better off keeping them hidden (off grid ), or even better, using a T3 that is less skill intensive and harder to catch.