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Incursions and ship balancing.
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Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#21 - 2014-02-03 19:13:59 UTC
Cyndrogen wrote:


Why are missiles punished to the point where they are not good at all?

If missiles are unable to deal alpha damage and take longer to hit due to flight time, their overall DPS should be GREATER not less then turrets?

Is it just me or does it seem like missiles are completely useless in incursions?


Because they used to be hugely overpowered. Way back when the universe was young, a torp raven would be a God in New Eden. Everyone was Caldari, and everyone wanted a Raven. Then CCP came and punished the Caldari, nerfed torps, nerfed missiles, and swore a blood oath that missiles would never be useful in pvp ever again. Then they realized they had nerfed them far too much, so they buffed them a bit, but CCP's hatred for Caldari and missiles lives on.
Aaliyah Tash-Murkon
#22 - 2014-02-03 20:26:00 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
Cyndrogen wrote:


Why are missiles punished to the point where they are not good at all?

If missiles are unable to deal alpha damage and take longer to hit due to flight time, their overall DPS should be GREATER not less then turrets?

Is it just me or does it seem like missiles are completely useless in incursions?


Because they used to be hugely overpowered. Way back when the universe was young, a torp raven would be a God in New Eden. Everyone was Caldari, and everyone wanted a Raven. Then CCP came and punished the Caldari, nerfed torps, nerfed missiles, and swore a blood oath that missiles would never be useful in pvp ever again. Then they realized they had nerfed them far too much, so they buffed them a bit, but CCP's hatred for Caldari and missiles lives on.


its good that they buffed it a bit but they need to make it so that they dont get blown up by smartbombs, they are totally useless in bigger fights with alot of smartbombs. CCP go fix this as it isnt sound that missiles/torpedos with more armor then a bullet get wacked and bullets just fly tru the damage of a SB
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#23 - 2014-02-03 20:30:54 UTC
Aaliyah Tash-Murkon wrote:
bullets just fly tru the damage of a SB


Well...yeah.

Bullets go really fast. Missiles don't.

A smart bomb is like sticking your hand out of the window and slapping things as they go by. Easy with a drone or missile, but not so much with a bullet.

Mr Epeen Cool
May Zhu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2014-02-03 22:04:40 UTC
can anybody actually name one of these supposed things that missiles do equally or better than the mach's autocannons, nightmares pulses, or vindi's blasters can do? because i can't immediately think of one.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#25 - 2014-02-03 22:27:35 UTC
May Zhu wrote:
can anybody actually name one of these supposed things that missiles do equally or better than the mach's autocannons, nightmares pulses, or vindi's blasters can do? because i can't immediately think of one.

Selectable damage at extreme distances and (still selectable) fucktons of damage at short-to-medium range.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#26 - 2014-02-03 22:37:13 UTC
Tippia wrote:
May Zhu wrote:
can anybody actually name one of these supposed things that missiles do equally or better than the mach's autocannons, nightmares pulses, or vindi's blasters can do? because i can't immediately think of one.

Selectable damage at extreme distances and (still selectable) fucktons of damage at short-to-medium range.


Except for the Tengu. According to 1500 threads, and any thread having to do with any missile, the Tengu cant do anything anymore.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#27 - 2014-02-03 22:40:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Except for the Tengu. According to 1500 threads, and any thread having to do with any missile, the Tengu cant do anything anymore.

Including the Tengu since, contrary to what 1500 nublets would like to claim 150 nublets keep chanting ten times over, being slightly less able is not the same thing as not being able to do anything.
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#28 - 2014-02-03 22:53:31 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Aaliyah Tash-Murkon wrote:
bullets just fly tru the damage of a SB


Well...yeah.

Bullets go really fast. Missiles don't.

A smart bomb is like sticking your hand out of the window and slapping things as they go by. Easy with a drone or missile, but not so much with a bullet.

Mr Epeen Cool

Many modern missiles are faster than a speeding bullet. Just saying...
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#29 - 2014-02-04 00:53:17 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:

Except for the Tengu. According to 1500 threads, and any thread having to do with any missile, the Tengu cant do anything anymore.


Hell if 1000 DPS from a cruiser is "nothing", then I might as well quit EVE. Said nooblets need to learn to fit their ships and take the time to train all their skills.
Oda Tokugawa
Elbit Systems Ltd
#30 - 2014-02-04 01:10:42 UTC
"Bullets go faster" - yes. But not shells. 155mm shell of a modern howitzer flies at ~750m/s. A Hellfire missile launched from apache goes 425 m/s. So all of the people using "its how its supposed to be" please go and check some actual facts, because if the game's weapon systems had any sort of real-life logic applied to them, only weapon system that hits instantly would be Lazers, followed by very quick to hit hybrids, followed by artillery which shells would only fly 2x times faster than missiles.

Why would you try to apply real world logic and excuses to a computer game is beyond me, since the way the weapon systems work in game should be dictated by balance considerations only. If you do insist on doing so, then at least check your facts and theories before posting them.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#31 - 2014-02-04 01:17:22 UTC
Oda Tokugawa wrote:
"Bullets go faster" - yes. But not shells. 155mm shell of a modern howitzer flies at ~750m/s. A Hellfire missile launched from apache goes 425 m/s. So all of the people using "its how its supposed to be" please go and check some actual facts, because if the game's weapon systems had any sort of real-life logic applied to them, only weapon system that hits instantly would be Lazers, followed by very quick to hit hybrids, followed by artillery which shells would only fly 2x times faster than missiles.
Well… then again, there would be no “lazers”, and lasers would horrible range and hybrids be uselessly inaccurate, and missiles and drones (which would also be missiles) be the only thing that anyone ever used since they'd be the only weapon system that could reliably hit anything.

Also, missiles would easily be faster than plain old projectiles — on-board propulsion will do that. Blink
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#32 - 2014-02-04 01:21:01 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:

Except for the Tengu. According to 1500 threads, and any thread having to do with any missile, the Tengu cant do anything anymore.


Hell if 1000 DPS from a cruiser is "nothing", then I might as well quit EVE. Said nooblets need to learn to fit their ships and take the time to train all their skills.


::effort:: ..... most people who play Eve have a higher aversion towards it then they do risk.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Oda Tokugawa
Elbit Systems Ltd
#33 - 2014-02-04 01:46:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Oda Tokugawa
Tippia wrote:
Oda Tokugawa wrote:
"Bullets go faster" - yes. But not shells. 155mm shell of a modern howitzer flies at ~750m/s. A Hellfire missile launched from apache goes 425 m/s. So all of the people using "its how its supposed to be" please go and check some actual facts, because if the game's weapon systems had any sort of real-life logic applied to them, only weapon system that hits instantly would be Lazers, followed by very quick to hit hybrids, followed by artillery which shells would only fly 2x times faster than missiles.
Well… then again, there would be no “lazers”, and lasers would horrible range and hybrids be uselessly inaccurate, and missiles and drones (which would also be missiles) be the only thing that anyone ever used since they'd be the only weapon system that could reliably hit anything.

Also, missiles would easily be faster than plain old projectiles — on-board propulsion will do that. Blink


Did you even read the second paragraph? Of course you didn't. You jumped to write this repsonse, and even in it, you use facts that are the opposite of logic and real world science. LaZers in space have much greater range, go read on light dispersion in atmosphere and vacuum, and accuracy of even today's prototype railguns greatly supercedes mass-produced artillery, due to much higher muzzle velocity and the ability to change said muzzle velocity in a much wider range (as opposed to guns, where you have few select "powder charges" of different power). Also, FYI, modern artillery systems already have shells that can correct trajectory in-flight, but these are not common due to their high cost and difficulty to produce. And before you answer to this, please read second paragraph of my original post.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#34 - 2014-02-04 02:37:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Oda Tokugawa wrote:
Did you even read the second paragraph?
Yes. But since you were talking about what would be real and not, I thought I'd correct a few things.

Quote:
LaZers
Don't exist.

Lasers, however…
Quote:
in space have much greater range
…than on earth, but they'd still be far too short-range to be of any use in space due to lost cohesion over longer ranges. You'd also have lots of problem getting rid of all the excess heat without making yourself an obvious target half a starsystem away. Kinetic weapons (railguns) wouldn't have those particular problem but would consistently miss anyway due to light-speed lag at any range where you'd want to deploy them. And projectiles would be trivial to avoid since they're too slow.

That leaves missiles, which can compensate for all of that by guiding themselves to the target for as long as the fuel will let them and alter their speed in flight. Oh, and drones, which are just missiles since everything else would be hideously and pointlessly wasteful.
45thtiger 0109
Pan-Intergalatic Business Community
#35 - 2014-02-04 03:24:30 UTC
Cyndrogen wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ravens & RNI are considered just as if not more desirable than ships like the Rokh. When you compare them against their counterparts as T1 & Navy Battleships they perform fine.

The Incursion imbalance is caused by two mechanics.

Firstly, Contests. If you are using missiles, the other fleet can alpha your targets out from under your missiles if they are fast enough, meaning missiles will never win a contest. Since they cause you to waste your effective DPS while gaining their DPS towards the score. This is caused by the single objective PvP nature of contests where one person takes everything and the other nothing.

Secondly, the lack of a true Missile Pirate BS. Meaning missiles have no equivalent to the Nightmare, Machariel & Vindicator. So of course they aren't going to quite compete against Pirate Battleships when they are T1 or Navy battleships. CCP's own design philosophy says Pirate BS's will be better (just a little, but that little counts).

So when we see a pirate battleship, we may see some shift in that, though the contest factor will still remain true if it has a fast flight time (Like speed bonused cruise missiles do) it can be close enough to instant at close ranges to be effective, and have enough pirate BS bonuses to make it's DPS compete with the Vindicator in close (Vindi is also due a rebalance remember and may loose a little in some area's)


I get that some ships perform better then others, fine. But I invested a lot of time in missile skills and now I have to invest MORE time in hybrids to get the same effect. Why can't missiles be better balanced so EVERY race can "contest" a site. It's just a weak argument because incursion fleets really have three choices for DPS:

Machariel
Vindi
Nightmare.

Thats it, everything else is second rate.



I have invested time in training in all of the required skills to fly all of the above ships and including the Caldari Pirate Faction BS.

It dose take allot of time to get all of the required skills.

But it worth it when you do get them.

Keep training up your SP and you will see the difference.Big smile

**You Have to take the good with the bad and the bad with the good.

Welcome to EvE OnLiNe**
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#36 - 2014-02-04 03:28:13 UTC
Who does Incursions anymore? Folks are supposed to be off farming space rented from the Oligarchs in Null...

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#37 - 2014-02-04 03:35:54 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Aaliyah Tash-Murkon wrote:
bullets just fly tru the damage of a SB


Well...yeah.

Bullets go really fast. Missiles don't.

A smart bomb is like sticking your hand out of the window and slapping things as they go by. Easy with a drone or missile, but not so much with a bullet.

Mr Epeen Cool

Many modern missiles are faster than a speeding bullet. Just saying...


Maybe so. But not in the modern EVE universe.

If I can watch it cross my LCD then it's slow. I can watch a missile zooming along or sit through the slow motion ballet that is a torpedo launching and traveling to it's target.

I sure never see the bullets moving, though. Just the notices as they do their thing to someone's armor.

Mr Epeen Cool
Cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
#38 - 2014-02-04 04:48:20 UTC
Felicity Love wrote:
Who does Incursions anymore? Folks are supposed to be off farming space rented from the Oligarchs in Null...


eh Null is still a pain in my ass when it comes to logistics.

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.
Incindir Mauser
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#39 - 2014-02-04 05:39:33 UTC

Christ.

I remember back in the day before the neckbeards took over any newbie in a T2 tanked Hurricane could get in a fleet and shoot Sansha.

Now it's all... "Pimp that ride you worthless scrub..."

If you want to make money running Incursions, train Logi and you'll never have to worry about if your overpriced BS hull is good enough to meet the high expectations of the Incursion grognards.
Hell Ball
Doomheim
#40 - 2014-02-04 06:16:32 UTC
Incindir Mauser wrote:

Christ.

I remember back in the day before the neckbeards took over any newbie in a T2 tanked Hurricane could get in a fleet and shoot Sansha.

Now it's all... "Pimp that ride you worthless scrub..."

If you want to make money running Incursions, train Logi and you'll never have to worry about if your overpriced BS hull is good enough to meet the high expectations of the Incursion grognards.


Look up WTM