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CCP, Delete NPC Corp Chat

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Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#121 - 2014-02-04 01:28:02 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
No, you're obviously avoiding the issue. Being in a corp that can be wardecced or otherwise attacked (by being part of FW) means that you built your sand castle which you will have to defend and which can be attacked. By being in an NPC corp you're not on an even playing field, suddenly different rules apply.

Being a station trader means there's no difference between being in a corp or not as they never undock, so that doesn't create a difference in rules.

Safe NPC corps (outside "newbie protection") needs to go.



I don't see how anything you said points to me avoiding the issue.

Anybody can join an NPC corp, so it's not different rules. It's the same rules for all.

Much like there is a choice between flying in highsec vs lowsec vs nullsec. They have different rules. Wormholes have different rules as well.

The entire reason why EVE Online is a diverse, interesting game is that there is a wide variety of different rules you can choose to play under. A lot of very successful players navigate through all of the different sets of rules, and don't limit their gameplay experience to any one particular realm.
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#122 - 2014-02-04 02:10:00 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Notorious Fellon wrote:
Not sure what NPC corp chat you are in, but it sure isn't Amarr.

Last time I was in Amarr it was a wealth of information regarding all aspects of the game. Removing it would be foolish.




Ok so at least those 4 chats shoudl be HEAVILY moderated by a ccp employee that dismiss messages that will [make a] player quit the game or destroy their experience.


Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Kick players from starter corp after 1 month.


THIS.

THIS, a thousand times THIS. At MINIMUM though increase NPC corp taxes to 50%+, I am nothing if not flexible....

Combine it with having a one-week stasis period for leaving a corp under (or pending) war declaration and you are really talking.


So, two mercs who blow up noobs who are foolish enough to join a player corp before they understand the game and laugh at their noob-fits and pod them and probably make a significant number of them consider quitting . . . think that telling a player in a noob-corp to stay in the noob-corp to avoid being griefed . . . is itself griefing.

More likely, I think you just want people to unwittingly flag themselves to be your targets, preferably before they are able to gain the knowledge they would need to effectively defend themselves.

Gregor Parud wrote:
Why should we care about people who actively try to avoid being part of the sandbox?


You are right, person who posts on an alt to avoid the consequences of his actions in this sandbox. We probably SHOULDN'T care what you think.

If NPC corps are so stronk, use them yourself or counter them. You're calling for CCP to nerf language. I can't tell you all how stupid that is because I would have to use language to do that, and then you'll complain that I'm using an overpowered tactic.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#123 - 2014-02-04 04:17:11 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Play the way I say or it's not a real sandbox.


Gregor pls

Mr Epeen Cool
deseana
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#124 - 2014-02-04 04:31:30 UTC
noob corp chats can be a wealth of info for new players. A lot of station traders, with mains that runs mish, null sec pvp, carebears etc etc
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#125 - 2014-02-04 08:28:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Pinky Hops wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
No, you're obviously avoiding the issue. Being in a corp that can be wardecced or otherwise attacked (by being part of FW) means that you built your sand castle which you will have to defend and which can be attacked. By being in an NPC corp you're not on an even playing field, suddenly different rules apply.

Being a station trader means there's no difference between being in a corp or not as they never undock, so that doesn't create a difference in rules.

Safe NPC corps (outside "newbie protection") needs to go.



I don't see how anything you said points to me avoiding the issue.

Anybody can join an NPC corp, so it's not different rules. It's the same rules for all.

Much like there is a choice between flying in highsec vs lowsec vs nullsec. They have different rules. Wormholes have different rules as well.

The entire reason why EVE Online is a diverse, interesting game is that there is a wide variety of different rules you can choose to play under. A lot of very successful players navigate through all of the different sets of rules, and don't limit their gameplay experience to any one particular realm.



You're again obviously avoiding the issue, or you're just not smart enough.

- if you're docked the rules are the same for every one
- if you're in a specific type of space (low sec, 0.0 or WH) the rules are the same for every one. Doesn't mean the different space types have the same rules, using that as reasoning is silly
- if you're in high sec and in a player corp the rules are not the same as one hiding in NPC corp

Everyone on the same level and playing field. The "haha can't be decced, neener neener" NPC corps provide have no place in a sandbox.


deseana wrote:
noob corp chats can be a wealth of info for new players. A lot of station traders, with mains that runs mish, null sec pvp, carebears etc etc


Sure, they can. But the point is that, generally, the people who stay hiding in NPC corp (beyond being new or an as of yet unused alt) are the ones who do so because they don't understand the game and want to hide from it, they lack the drive or IQ to make something out of it. And it's THOSE folks who will, given their limited understanding, give newbies completely false info. The amount of boogie man stories you hear in NPC corps is terrible and while player corps can still be hilariously terrible, at least it's filled with people who "dared" to take a step forwards.
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#126 - 2014-02-04 09:24:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Jowen Datloran
Gregor Parud wrote:
Myathe Brinalle wrote:
...



No, the issue is this;

ON AVERAGE player quality will be lower in NPC corp, yes it will have alts but generally the people who choose to stay in NPC tend to not be all that great at the game. Not saying that by joining a corp your IQ goes up 20 points but on average NPC corp will have less active and less knowledgeable players.

On its own that's not a problem, but true newbies will also be in that corp chat and the older morons will feed these newbies silliness, nonsense, mistaken facts and more hilarious bullshit. Just as how being in help chat is mostly about correcting people's mistaken info it's the same in NPC corps. Of course newbies will give other newbies wrong info and that you can't stop but it's specifically the morons who have been playing for a longer time, HIDING in NPC corp telling those newbies all kinds of boogie man stories, mistaken "facts" and silliness.

NPC corp should be for newbies only, not the mistaken moron telling people how bad the game is and that you have to hide and how mining is this awesome way of playing the game. Because that surely isn't helping with newbie retention.

Whoha, hold the horses there.

So, it will improve the level of advice in the rookie corps, if we throw out all "vets" of three months or more?

It is an improvement to have people with max. three months of experience (essentially clueless) giving advice to each other? You do not think that this will be even more misinformed and mainly focused about encouraging activities that the far majority of new players begin with to make their first ISK (mining and ratting) because that is all they know?

When one of these "true noobs" lose all their possessions in low sec or to a gank, because they have no idea what is going on, and spread the message to the other noobs, there will be no opposition to these stories. "Grind for days, lose it all without a clue" is a poor New Player Experience.

The topic in the OP is far from new, and think it is now pretty clear why CCP a long time ago came to the conclusion that it would be a completely braindead move.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#127 - 2014-02-04 09:34:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:


So, two mercs who blow up noobs who are foolish enough to join a player corp before they understand the game and laugh at their noob-fits and pod them and probably make a significant number of them consider quitting . . . think that telling a player in a noob-corp to stay in the noob-corp to avoid being griefed . . . is itself griefing.

More likely, I think you just want people to unwittingly flag themselves to be your targets, preferably before they are able to gain the knowledge they would need to effectively defend themselves.

Gregor Parud wrote:
Why should we care about people who actively try to avoid being part of the sandbox?


You are right, person who posts on an alt to avoid the consequences of his actions in this sandbox. We probably SHOULDN'T care what you think.

If NPC corps are so stronk, use them yourself or counter them. You're calling for CCP to nerf language. I can't tell you all how stupid that is because I would have to use language to do that, and then you'll complain that I'm using an overpowered tactic.



No mr. I am one that is interested in the health of this game. People that go experience the game on its full are the ones that likely stay longer.

You know why I am here at the top of food chain in high sec? Because I left the dumb NPC corp within a week of game. IF someone wants to leave the bottom of the food piramid, they need to get out of that damm corp chat full of lies.


When I kill a player I am teaching far more than ANYTHING he can learn on that chat, and we do usually send message to the victims explaining how they can improve, as long as they TRIED to fight instead of staying docked.


A new player can stay 10 freacking years on that corp chat and he will NEVER be ready to face us! But if he leaves and play the real game, with players that play the game, he will likely be able to evade and even fight us much more effectively within 2-3 weeks.

So YOU are the one that want these players to remainign helpless and pathetically oblivious of how to play the game.

We want them to enjoy eve and be able to defend themselves and learn the truth about the game.

I pity you, because you are probably one that is paying for the game, with money or time to grind isk.. but is not evolving.. you have not seen 0.00001% of what eve is. If you never left an NPC corp... you are as player of eve as the Pope is....

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#128 - 2014-02-04 09:39:00 UTC
And a lot of them do learn how to do those things in NPC corp chat. Lets be real, the 'proof' quoted earlier was anything but. It was two very sensible pieces of advice given to newbies, and snipped by the quoter without context in order to cast the comments in as bad a light as possible.
I've made statement on NPC corp alts before where I said 'Don't go to Low sec, you will die'. Of course, I then explained further as to why they would die based on what they were doing and gave suggestions on how to modify things such that they wouldn't die. But sometimes when dealing with newbies, you need to keep the initial statement simple, so they get the message then take on board the extra advice.

So yea.... No. NPC corp is very important, and it should stay. That or delete all corp chat. That'll be fun.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#129 - 2014-02-04 09:40:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
@Jowen Datloran

- if it stays as it is NPC corp has true newbies, alts and people who are incapable or too scared to move on
- if you force people to move on after a given amount of time it'll have newbies and new alts. So you're missing out on the folks who are petrified and clueless, which is a big point
- if you're "promoted" into a (forced) active NPC corp then it's do or die, and that generally means the people in it will have the will and means to survive and prosper in EVE. The incapables won't be here either as they'll quickly hide in their 1 man corps

Result; on average you'll have less terribles telling newbies mistaken nonsense. There's literally nothing worse than someone telling a newbie that he has to hide and will forever be hindered because he has less SP than others, how low sec or 0.0 is for bad people and how grinding PVE is a great way to play the game. Because that's, generally, what newbies are told by clowns like these and it's not helping these newbies at all, in fact it will probably make them leave the game thinking the game is boring.

Newbies have the choice to find their own play style of course but feeding them bullshit (which happens a lot in npc corp) isn't helpful for them, the player base or the game itself.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#130 - 2014-02-04 09:44:24 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
And a lot of them do learn how to do those things in NPC corp chat. Lets be real, the 'proof' quoted earlier was anything but. It was two very sensible pieces of advice given to newbies, and snipped by the quoter without context in order to cast the comments in as bad a light as possible.
I've made statement on NPC corp alts before where I said 'Don't go to Low sec, you will die'. Of course, I then explained further as to why they would die based on what they were doing and gave suggestions on how to modify things such that they wouldn't die. But sometimes when dealing with newbies, you need to keep the initial statement simple, so they get the message then take on board the extra advice.

So yea.... No. NPC corp is very important, and it should stay. That or delete all corp chat. That'll be fun.



10 good advices are completely outdone by a single bad advice. That is how advices work. An eve career can be destroyed in seconds on that chat. Most there never TRIED to leave NPC corp and are so afraid of doing it because of the terror stories told there.

PEople say that players that shoot others are griegfers? THey are wrong. THe players that make an alt on that chat to spread lies and preemptively destroy the eve career os several new players with lies are the true griefers... they cause more damage than all gankers ever did.. they make the players restrict themselves to NPC corps, saying they should never go to player corps.. therefore these players never experience anythign of what is good in eve.. and they leave the game after not so long time. BEcause the game they play.. really sux.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Mascha Tzash
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#131 - 2014-02-04 09:55:45 UTC
Xurr wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Yeah… newbie corp chat has by far the highest concentration of outright griefers — intentional or not — the game has to offer. It's not a healthy place for new players to start. Cry


I agree with this. I don't know of a decent solution however.


Might be a dumb idea that jumps to my mind:
Disallow the Noob-Corp Chat and do the following instead:
Ask the players for their prefered language to use the chat channels (some might play the game in english but perhaps prefer to communicate in russian or so) and put them into the coresponding help-channel. I still learn a lot just by reading it and so it might hpoefully be with newcomers.

When they join their first corp, the corp chat pops up the first time and is then available as usual.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#132 - 2014-02-04 09:58:43 UTC
Or possibly the problem you are claiming isn't a real problem. Because if they take the terror story and don't ask 'so how do I avoid x' then they were never going to stick at EVE anyway. And as soon as they ran into the first griefer who takes advantage of them would have quit regardless.

And lets be honest, there are a LOT of griefers in EVE, there are people who will invite newbies to corp just to awox them for crying out loud. This isn't people with bling loot worth trillions, this is newbies with maybe their first cruiser.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#133 - 2014-02-04 10:02:40 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Or possibly the problem you are claiming isn't a real problem. Because if they take the terror story and don't ask 'so how do I avoid x' then they were never going to stick at EVE anyway. And as soon as they ran into the first griefer who takes advantage of them would have quit regardless.

And lets be honest, there are a LOT of griefers in EVE, there are people who will invite newbies to corp just to awox them for crying out loud. This isn't people with bling loot worth trillions, this is newbies with maybe their first cruiser.


Giving newbies informed help, preparing them using facts and useful info is the way to battle that. Morons going "there's nothing you can do man, just hide and hope they'll go away" is the wrong way and, on average, people who hide in NPC corp for long time will probably be of the latter type, not the former.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#134 - 2014-02-04 10:13:33 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:


Giving newbies informed help, preparing them using facts and useful info is the way to battle that. Morons going "there's nothing you can do man, just hide and hope they'll go away" is the wrong way and, on average, people who hide in NPC corp for long time will probably be of the latter type, not the former.

Except sometimes the advice you are calling moronic is the right advice, because it's the best way to avoid to happening again and again. The whole generalising just doesn't work.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#135 - 2014-02-04 10:34:32 UTC
No, but given how you're in your own little corp for the past year I can see why you think that way.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#136 - 2014-02-04 10:40:11 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
No, but given how you're in your own little corp for the past year I can see why you think that way.

Because this character on a tax evasion corp means I've never been in a bigger corp. Totally right :P.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#137 - 2014-02-04 10:44:55 UTC
you're making up excuses as to why NPC corp is "fine" as is using all kinds of weird and illogical reasoning so you're quite probably more a part of the problem than the solution.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#138 - 2014-02-04 11:02:03 UTC
Yep, personal attacks now over a stealth highsec nerf..... Hmmm, Guess the Null brigade are out. THey have even snuck in the obligatory 'Make NPC corps wardeccable' and 'Add more tax' into this thread even.

And you go calling me the problem? Seriously, go look in a mirror at what you are writing.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#139 - 2014-02-04 11:25:08 UTC
I'm not part of null sec, haven't lived there since 2009 so no; you're wrong. Also, learn the difference between personal attack and a statement based on your actions.

NPC corps are, not counting the newbies and new alts, filled with clueless failures and people hiding from the sandbox. Apart from the fact that it allows them to live by different rules than the rest of us (which in a sandbox shouldn't be) it also means they'll be the ones spewing their non-facts and stupidity onto those newbies, breeding yet another batch of uninformed players, perpetuating the problem and quite possibly making them leave.

Newbies are cool. They should be helped, nurtured and shown the choices and options they have in this game. What they DON'T need is noobs telling them noobie boogie man stories and "facts".
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#140 - 2014-02-04 11:36:16 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
I'm not part of null sec, haven't lived there since 2009 so no; you're wrong. Also, learn the difference between personal attack and a statement based on your actions.

NPC corps are, not counting the newbies and new alts, filled with clueless failures and people hiding from the sandbox. Apart from the fact that it allows them to live by different rules than the rest of us (which in a sandbox shouldn't be) it also means they'll be the ones spewing their non-facts and stupidity onto those newbies, breeding yet another batch of uninformed players, perpetuating the problem and quite possibly making them leave.

Newbies are cool. They should be helped, nurtured and shown the choices and options they have in this game. What they DON'T need is noobs telling them noobie boogie man stories and "facts".



Roll the children are out today I see

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~