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What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

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ashley Eoner
#2041 - 2014-02-03 06:56:40 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
stoicfaux wrote:
Sweet Jeebus that was tedious. Just ran a kill all plus bonus room on Angel Extravaganza. Since AE is/was a "standard," here be some numbers just for grins and giggles:

Ship: Vargur - 2.9 AU/s warp speed.

Time: 42m41s (4m26s travel, 38m15s mission)
Distance: 1 jump away for 89.98 AU round trip
Bounties: 29,917,438
Rewards: 4,120,000
LP: 8,509
Salvage: 8,418,901 (per built-in estimator)
Loot: 6,670,000 (per built-in estimator) (~4,575,199 in mineral value, eyeballed local market)

Ammo Expenses: 2,831,824.00 (2,462 of RF Fusion, 78 barrage)

Total assets in isk minus expenses:
@0 isk/LP: 46,294,515 (65,076,241/hour)
@1000 isk/LP: 54,803,515 (77,037,350/hour)
@2000 isk/LP: 63,312,515 (88,998,459/hour)
@3000 isk/LP: 71,821,515 (100,959,568/hour)

So that's ~30M in liquid isk plus another ~12M if you quick sell salvage+loot at 80% value (for ~54M/hour.)


For what it's worth, AE was on the not worth blitzing list. And remember folks, this is just one data point in a "level 4 kill all (no blitzing) with a mediocre marauder" test, so don't read too much into it.



AE is actually one that pays well when you clear and loot. If you can salvage as you go it's even better.

If you're using the built in estimator you're definitely overestimating actual value by some. I've had the estimate be off by over a couple million even with less then 10m in estimated loot. Of course sorting, "refining", moving to market and selling the loot further eats into the profit. The good news though is that you can sell the loot and cash in the LP in a single trip. Of course you are going to want a well tanked transport and a scout :P

Does SOE offer AE?

Also are people selling SOE LP items where they cash in? If not how far away is the typical market?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2042 - 2014-02-03 07:06:02 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
SO what would be the implants for the golem pilot then?

Isn't the kronos the butt of many a joke anyway?


Go look them up on pyfa, they come under missiles.

As for the kronos, 70km blasters are never something to joke about.
ashley Eoner
#2043 - 2014-02-03 07:24:44 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
SO what would be the implants for the golem pilot then?

Isn't the kronos the butt of many a joke anyway?


Go look them up on pyfa, they come under missiles.

As for the kronos, 70km blasters are never something to joke about.

Oh so once again you refuse to provide any sort of real data. Instead assertions are made as if they stand on their own and require no proof because they came from you.


Duly noted.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2044 - 2014-02-03 07:29:23 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
SO what would be the implants for the golem pilot then?

Isn't the kronos the butt of many a joke anyway?


Go look them up on pyfa, they come under missiles.

As for the kronos, 70km blasters are never something to joke about.

Oh so once again you refuse to provide any sort of real data. Instead assertions are made as if they stand on their own and require no proof because they came from you.


Duly noted.


What exactly is so hard with looking up these implants for yourself? Do I literally have to hand feed you even the most basic and easiest to find info?

Do you have EFT or pyfa installed? Can you not load up the game and just open the implant section on the market tab?
ashley Eoner
#2045 - 2014-02-03 07:39:55 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
SO what would be the implants for the golem pilot then?

Isn't the kronos the butt of many a joke anyway?


Go look them up on pyfa, they come under missiles.

As for the kronos, 70km blasters are never something to joke about.

Oh so once again you refuse to provide any sort of real data. Instead assertions are made as if they stand on their own and require no proof because they came from you.


Duly noted.


What exactly is so hard with looking up these implants for yourself? Do I literally have to hand feed you even the most basic and easiest to find info?

Do you have EFT or pyfa installed? Can you not load up the game and just open the implant section on the market tab?

I'm only asking you to apply the same standards to yourself that you demand of those that disagree with you. I also want you to see the flaw in your statement. Or is that why you refuse to list them?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2046 - 2014-02-03 07:52:44 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:

I'm only asking you to apply the same standards to yourself that you demand of those that disagree with you. I also want you to see the flaw in your statement. Or is that why you refuse to list them?


No what you are doing is making a fool of yourself. You are calling me out and implying that I am telling lies on something that would take anyone a matter of minutes to find.

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2047 - 2014-02-03 08:33:29 UTC
CCP is right, even when they contradict themselves.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#2048 - 2014-02-03 08:55:54 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Sentry drones do not need to be pulled in over and over, once you have agro you keep it. Marauders use fewer tanking mods so no, they do not lose out on damage.
Uh what does tanking mods have to do with applied damage rigs?

When was the last time you did a level 4? When blitzing you tend to trigger waves as fast as possible and every time you trigger a wave you better pull them sentries in or you WILL have aggro on them. In the past you could let them hang out cause they could tank a bit of dps but with the severely nerfed regen you're risking losing time and income through sentry death. Also you could drop the drones earlier pre-nerf because the regen was sufficient to tank a bit. Now you have to make sure you've aggroed completely before dropping.

EDIT : Clarified.


Kronos doesnt need applied damage rigs. If you do go with the golem then you can simply use a few plugins in your spare implant slots to get the same result. Because of there being fewer slots needed for tank you can fit more tracking, damage, target painters ect.
SO what would be the implants for the golem pilot then?

Isn't the kronos the butt of many a joke anyway?


While I was testing on Sisi, I looked into Skill Hardwiring. Prior to doing this, I had just put whatever loot I had gotten into my head. But yesterday I did it a bit smarter

Cruise Missile Damage +5%
Shield Capacity +5% (the only applicable missile relevancy here was range and I already have 222km)
Guided Missile Precision +5%
Target Navigation Prediction +5%
Rate of Fire +5%

I hope this answers your question.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#2049 - 2014-02-03 09:02:40 UTC
This is the fitting I've been working with on Singularity. I am actually very pleased with its performance relative to previous fits I've used.

Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 200
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
100MN Microwarpdrive II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Salvager I
Bastion Module I

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst I

Hobgoblin II x5
Salvage Drone I x5
Warrior II x5

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2050 - 2014-02-03 09:06:36 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Shield Capacity +5% (the only applicable missile relevancy here was range and I already have 222km)

Flight time isn't very useful, no. However missile velocity might not be a bad idea, even if you don't need the extra range, applying your damage more quickly can't hurt.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#2051 - 2014-02-03 09:11:13 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
La Nariz wrote:

E: It shows average nullsec ratting income to be ~70m/hr.
.

It shows the Average Anom to be 70m/hr ISK.
You however deliberately did not use the ESS to give yourself an extra 5% isk & 15% LP for starters, potentially an extra 20% isk & 20% LP.
In fact an extra 40% LP if we use the matching 2000isk/lp figure you are basing your high sec figures on (Which is not an average LP figure anyway.)

So, before we take loot into account we are already up to 105m/hr on your middle of the road figure and your high end figure of 100 similarly jumps to 150/hr using the same basis.

And you are only using a basic T2 HAC here. Go use the same HAC in high sec and you will see much lower figures than the high sec figures you have been touting. Not a bling fit. So you are failing in doing a decent comparison and deliberately loading your data.

Seriously, at least 'try'. It's blatantly obvious you are attempting to make your Null results as bad as possible, and they are still competitive.
We haven't even looked at the potential loot value here or Escalations which give better loot. Though I'm guessing your claim will be that they don't count either because you don't get them every time.


To accurately test he can't use the ESS. I suppose he could run some testing with and some without to see it's effect (and that would decent information to have). But because there is no ESS in highsec, it is a non issue.

Also he is using the HAC because anything more efficient is more of a target I'm betting. He and I are trying to use the best tools for the jobs we are trying to do.

Note that my initial testing numbers were still paltry in comparison but there are a lot of deficiencies on my part (overtanked Golem hull and abysmal applicable social skills)

Nevyn, please help me do some of this testing. It's a lot of work and the more individuals' data we can collect the more accurate the study becomes. It's also more productive than posting speculation about the reasons someone did this thing or didn't do that thing yea?

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#2052 - 2014-02-03 09:14:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Kimmi Chan
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Shield Capacity +5% (the only applicable missile relevancy here was range and I already have 222km)

Flight time isn't very useful, no. However missile velocity might not be a bad idea, even if you don't need the extra range, applying your damage more quickly can't hurt.


I hadn't considered that. Good point James.

ED: There is also a navigation implant that improves ship agility by 5%. That might be helpful with flight times to and from mission sites by reducing align times.

ED: And another that improves scan resolution by 5%. That's a decent option as well.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#2053 - 2014-02-03 09:20:58 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:


To accurately test he can't use the ESS.

We are testing maximum income potentials of Null & High. By not using the ESS he is deliberately sabotaging his results by somewhere from 20-50% depending on how much leverage they can make of the LP market. So, yes, he has to use the ESS to accurately test. Otherwise he is deliberately cutting his income short. Which.... Was the whole point behind him not using it in reality.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#2054 - 2014-02-03 09:31:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Kimmi Chan
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:


To accurately test he can't use the ESS.

We are testing maximum income potentials of Null & High. By not using the ESS he is deliberately sabotaging his results by somewhere from 20-50% depending on how much leverage they can make of the LP market. So, yes, he has to use the ESS to accurately test. Otherwise he is deliberately cutting his income short. Which.... Was the whole point behind him not using it in reality.


Speaking scientifically...

I saw numbers being given here by Jenn aSide, Baltec, et al saying I could make 100m ISK/hr in highsec. I was skeptical, as I always am, so am testing it myself.

If you are skeptical of the numbers La Nariz is providing, either go test it yourself, find someone to test it for you, or extrapolate his figures using the effect of the ESS though this is less accurate as it does not account for thieves or a potential increased rate of interruption.

It is of no benefit to anyone to just sit here, point fingers, and accuse people of sandbagging or slagging off. It just turns this into a ****-throwing spectacle. I can just go to the ape house at the zoo if I want to see that.

ED: I've continued to assert that the largest contributor to highsec profits is LP. Stoic had even worked it out to 69%. My belief, based on the data that I have seen is that CCP's intent is to find ways to inject LP into Null. The LP store is the big sink. While I can agree that the ESS is of poor design I do believe that if Null wanted to nerf highsec, they are being given a tool to do just that. They can use the LP to saturate the markets for Faction equipment HOWEVER, the LP is not SOE, Thukkar, or Trade Partners which tend to have the highest rated ISK/LP rates.

Personally, I think a great alternative to the ESS is LP awarded based on the ship you are using to collect bounties. So in La Nariz's case, he would have gotten Federation Navy LP for flying the Ishtar. Someone crazy enough to do stuff in a Tengu would get Caldari Navy LP. If someone felt like using a Stratios, they would get SOE LP. Have Thukkar and TP ships available and you might have something here.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2055 - 2014-02-03 09:36:10 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:


To accurately test he can't use the ESS.

We are testing maximum income potentials of Null & High. By not using the ESS he is deliberately sabotaging his results by somewhere from 20-50% depending on how much leverage they can make of the LP market. So, yes, he has to use the ESS to accurately test. Otherwise he is deliberately cutting his income short. Which.... Was the whole point behind him not using it in reality.


The only people using them are wormhole dwellers as an early warning tool. ESS being used for anoms are few and far between.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2056 - 2014-02-03 09:38:32 UTC
Kimmi wrote:

ED: There is also a navigation implant that improves ship agility by 5%. That might be helpful with flight times to and from mission sites by reducing align times.

ED: And another that improves scan resolution by 5%. That's a decent option as well.


Agility isnt as important as most times you will be aligned anyway. Warp speed is the more useful in navigation implants.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#2057 - 2014-02-03 09:42:28 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Kimmi wrote:

ED: There is also a navigation implant that improves ship agility by 5%. That might be helpful with flight times to and from mission sites by reducing align times.

ED: And another that improves scan resolution by 5%. That's a decent option as well.


Agility isnt as important as most times you will be aligned anyway. Warp speed is the more useful in navigation implants.


Slot 7 is the only one in question. The other 4 slots all improve applied DPS.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2058 - 2014-02-03 09:43:15 UTC
ESS should be included if it is worth using

you can't just say 'well your income'd be 20% better if you'd used ESS' if it is too impractical to be worth the ISK cost, the cost of giving up a good amount of your rat income, the cost of waiting for it to ramp up, the cost of having randoms coming to nick it or the cost of having an alt account to watch the thing (you can't defend it with a ratting character)

so yeah if ESS is worth the bother it should be included but it doesn't sound like it is
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2059 - 2014-02-03 09:44:45 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:


To accurately test he can't use the ESS.

We are testing maximum income potentials of Null & High. By not using the ESS he is deliberately sabotaging his results by somewhere from 20-50% depending on how much leverage they can make of the LP market. So, yes, he has to use the ESS to accurately test. Otherwise he is deliberately cutting his income short. Which.... Was the whole point behind him not using it in reality.


Speaking scientifically...

I saw numbers being given here by Jenn aSide, Baltec, et al saying I could make 100m ISK/hr in highsec. I was skeptical, as I always am, so am testing it myself.

If you are skeptical of the numbers La Nariz is providing, either go test it yourself, find someone to test it for you, or extrapolate his figures using the effect of the ESS though this is less accurate as it does not account for thieves or a potential increased rate of interruption.

It is of no benefit to anyone to just sit here, point fingers, and accuse people of sandbagging or slagging off. It just turns this into a ****-throwing spectacle. I can just go to the ape house at the zoo if I want to see that.

ED: I've continued to assert that the largest contributor to highsec profits is LP. Stoic had even worked it out to 69%. My belief, based on the data that I have seen is that CCP's intent is to find ways to inject LP into Null. The LP store is the big sink. While I can agree that the ESS is of poor design I do believe that if Null wanted to nerf highsec, they are being given a tool to do just that. They can use the LP to saturate the markets for Faction equipment HOWEVER, the LP is not SOE, Thukkar, or Trade Partners which tend to have the highest rated ISK/LP rates.

Personally, I think a great alternative to the ESS is LP awarded based on the ship you are using to collect bounties. So in La Nariz's case, he would have gotten Federation Navy LP for flying the Ishtar. Someone crazy enough to do stuff in a Tengu would get Caldari Navy LP. If someone felt like using a Stratios, they would get SOE LP. Have Thukkar and TP ships available and you might have something here.



You can but is HARD to keep that level. Specially because you are MORE likely to get ganked in the good high sec mission systems than in 0.0. Yes you ARE , i lived in 0.0 and if you are nto drunk and have an alliance with average IQ over 50 that can use chats you will not loose anything.


0.0 is much easier to casually make a lot of isk. HIgh sec you can achieve high income but with a much more specialized and tunned approach.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2060 - 2014-02-03 09:47:11 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Kimmi wrote:

ED: There is also a navigation implant that improves ship agility by 5%. That might be helpful with flight times to and from mission sites by reducing align times.

ED: And another that improves scan resolution by 5%. That's a decent option as well.


Agility isnt as important as most times you will be aligned anyway. Warp speed is the more useful in navigation implants.


Slot 7 is the only one in question. The other 4 slots all improve applied DPS.


I dont ave pyfa on me at the moment but I think slot 7 can be used for a missile rig. Slot six if I recall correctly can have a +18% warp speed. Not cheap but very much worth it for a pve golem.