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What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2021 - 2014-02-03 04:38:06 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

I understand common maths.
You apparently do not understand scientific testing, and data set controls.
You do however seem to understand deliberately lowering your results by doing things in inefficient ways.


I don't think you do, especially if you cannot read that sheet where it shows exactly how much each anomaly was worth. This is literal intellectual dishonesty coming out of you. I posted the average of the anomalies, the exact amount of the anomalies, the total time, and the average time.

You're arguing with a scientist here now and you're calling it bad testing. I posted my method and the tools I used so it is 100% reproducible. I posted what controls need to be done both a negative: belt ratting and a positive: active battleship/carrier ratting. I constructed the data table so anyone can read it no jargon. Its 100% accessible and 100% reproducible experiment. Its a good test.

You're whining about an ESS which I will not use for this testing at all because it will negatively impact others in the CFC that also use the system and there is no ESS in highsec. You can easily convert the LP gained per hour to isk hour so there isn't a problem with it either. This also is discounting that I vaguely remember CCP stating that maybe 1000 ESS have been deployed, so most of nullsec is not using the ESS in the first place.

E: As of this time now you still have not looked at the sheet.

E2: Its the closest to blitzing L4s without loot/salvage that we can get with a nullsec test.

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Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#2022 - 2014-02-03 04:46:07 UTC
This old whine about high sec mission income is old. Seriously, you null guys need to learn a new tune.

Did we really need yet another stealth "nerf high sec into the ground and force everyone to join a blob null alliance" thread? Really?

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2023 - 2014-02-03 04:48:46 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
This old whine about high sec mission income is old. Seriously, you null guys need to learn a new tune.

Did we really need yet another stealth "nerf high sec into the ground and force everyone to join a blob null alliance" thread? Really?


It isn't stealth I've shown that doing a mid-range solo PVE activity comparable to L4s in nullsec earns you ~70m isk/hr uninterrupted. Stoic has shown that you can get ~100m blizting L4s in highsec, a mid-range solo PVE activity, in virtual complete safety.

Highsec: ~100m
Nullsec: ~70m

Something is clearly wrong with risk : reward here.

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Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2024 - 2014-02-03 04:53:47 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
So now we have the mid-range solo PVE activity of nullsec sitting at ~70m isk/hr and the mid-range solo PVE activity of highsec sitting at ~100m isk/hr. What more we need if we can get two volunteers to do this is someone to do belt ratting in nullsec and active battleship or carrier ratting in nullsec. To give us a positive/negative control.



No way in hell I'm ratting in a marauder or carrier in fountain, its just not going to happen.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2025 - 2014-02-03 04:55:40 UTC
Onictus wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
So now we have the mid-range solo PVE activity of nullsec sitting at ~70m isk/hr and the mid-range solo PVE activity of highsec sitting at ~100m isk/hr. What more we need if we can get two volunteers to do this is someone to do belt ratting in nullsec and active battleship or carrier ratting in nullsec. To give us a positive/negative control.



No way in hell I'm ratting in a marauder or carrier in fountain, its just not going to happen.


Hence why I am asking for a volunteer as I am not feeding BL. or some random crappy test interceptor fleet a carrier kill.

E: I'd take belt ratting if you're willing to put up with that torture.

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Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2026 - 2014-02-03 04:57:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
La Nariz wrote:
Onictus wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
So now we have the mid-range solo PVE activity of nullsec sitting at ~70m isk/hr and the mid-range solo PVE activity of highsec sitting at ~100m isk/hr. What more we need if we can get two volunteers to do this is someone to do belt ratting in nullsec and active battleship or carrier ratting in nullsec. To give us a positive/negative control.



No way in hell I'm ratting in a marauder or carrier in fountain, its just not going to happen.


Hence why I am asking for a volunteer as I am not feeding BL. or some random crappy test interceptor fleet a carrier kill.

E: I'd take belt ratting if you're willing to put up with that torture.



I can put up numbers in an ishtar...they are going to suck though, specially after the omni hit.


...and no I have to pass on the belt ratting, that is as big of a waste of time as there is.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2027 - 2014-02-03 04:58:57 UTC
Onictus wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Onictus wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
So now we have the mid-range solo PVE activity of nullsec sitting at ~70m isk/hr and the mid-range solo PVE activity of highsec sitting at ~100m isk/hr. What more we need if we can get two volunteers to do this is someone to do belt ratting in nullsec and active battleship or carrier ratting in nullsec. To give us a positive/negative control.



No way in hell I'm ratting in a marauder or carrier in fountain, its just not going to happen.


Hence why I am asking for a volunteer as I am not feeding BL. or some random crappy test interceptor fleet a carrier kill.

E: I'd take belt ratting if you're willing to put up with that torture.



I can put up numbers in an ishtar...they are going to suck though, specially after the omni hit.


Its not nearly as bad as dinsdale makes it out to be just run it unscripted. A tengu might be faster but, whatever works.

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Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2028 - 2014-02-03 05:01:20 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Onictus wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Onictus wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
So now we have the mid-range solo PVE activity of nullsec sitting at ~70m isk/hr and the mid-range solo PVE activity of highsec sitting at ~100m isk/hr. What more we need if we can get two volunteers to do this is someone to do belt ratting in nullsec and active battleship or carrier ratting in nullsec. To give us a positive/negative control.



No way in hell I'm ratting in a marauder or carrier in fountain, its just not going to happen.


Hence why I am asking for a volunteer as I am not feeding BL. or some random crappy test interceptor fleet a carrier kill.

E: I'd take belt ratting if you're willing to put up with that torture.



I can put up numbers in an ishtar...they are going to suck though, specially after the omni hit.


Its not nearly as bad as dinsdale makes it out to be just run it unscripted. A tengu might be faster but, whatever works.



The Tengu only comes out for 10/10s if I have my druthers, it too expensive to risk without a payout.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2029 - 2014-02-03 05:03:09 UTC
Onictus wrote:

The Tengu only comes out for 10/10s if I have my druthers, it too expensive to risk without a payout.


I'll take what testing help I can get especially with horrible stuff like belt ratting, if its an ishtar so be it.

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Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2030 - 2014-02-03 05:07:54 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Onictus wrote:

The Tengu only comes out for 10/10s if I have my druthers, it too expensive to risk without a payout.


I'll take what testing help I can get especially with horrible stuff like belt ratting, if its an ishtar so be it.



Issue is Fountain for me

The systems are there, but they are constantly camped by the four alliances that live in NPC core.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2031 - 2014-02-03 05:09:16 UTC
Onictus wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Onictus wrote:

The Tengu only comes out for 10/10s if I have my druthers, it too expensive to risk without a payout.


I'll take what testing help I can get especially with horrible stuff like belt ratting, if its an ishtar so be it.



Issue is Fountain for me

The systems are there, but they are constantly camped by the four alliances that live in NPC core.


Yeah no need to feed those guys so if you can help great, if not I'll try and find some space grad students.

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Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#2032 - 2014-02-03 05:11:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
La Nariz wrote:
So now we have the mid-range solo PVE activity of nullsec sitting at ~70m isk/hr and the mid-range solo PVE activity of highsec sitting at ~100m isk/hr. What more we need if we can get two volunteers to do this is someone to do belt ratting in nullsec and active battleship or carrier ratting in nullsec. To give us a positive/negative control.


A dominix, fitted roughly like this.

6x 350mm railgun II (caldari navy thorium charge L)

1 pith c-type large shield booster
1x T2 kin hardener
1x T2 therm hardener
1x shield boost amp II
1x fed navy omni (both scripts)

4x drone damage amp II
2x magfield stab II
1x meta 4 CPU mod

2x large cap control I
1x large cpu rig

5x garde II
5x warden II

~1080 dps at 50km if I recall, and thin enough that it can only really do hubs. A battleship with less damage than that is pointless because of the ishtar (ie flying a dominix with standard armor tank and 4 damage mods simply won't out rat the ishtar, which is much quicker to warp, lock and GTFO on entrance of reds to system, and deals ~925 in 50km fit). Even then the domi isn't really justifying the management of the cap and booster. If you rat closer than 50km, then you risk being scrammed.

Does nearly 2 hubs/tick on average, and you'll get a piths escalation every 25* or so hubs on average (presumed, and piths takes me ~1hr30 to do as an escalation including fetching plexboat,travel and has an expectation of ~220m for that 1:30.

Completing the escalations uninterrupted** would net me 80mil/hr on average including the period of time spent shooting 60m/hr ratting.

I'd expect that forsaken hubs are able to be ratted for better isk/hr but I'm doubtful that the escalation is better isk/hr - simply because mine always escalate first into hostile space and then further into hostile space, ie my fleet outpost sigs have always gone 20-30 jumps away.

The commander is so rare (at least in my system) as to be utterly pointless economically.


* the estimate for escalation is not tested thoroughly because i can't always keep level 4 military in my system, and thus lose my hubs and I only recently installed the 250,000m3 antenna for them anyway.

** never happens, they go into hostile space for me and take patience to finish.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2033 - 2014-02-03 05:16:39 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
How much is each regular hub worth? A forsaken is about 30m.

E: It escalates to FSP which will pretty much guarantee you only get an OSE or tags and ammo.

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Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2034 - 2014-02-03 05:17:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
La Nariz wrote:


Yeah no need to feed those guys so if you can help great, if not I'll try and find some space grad students.



Dek is hands down better, or whoever lives in Fade now.
La Nariz wrote:
How much is each regular hub worth? A forsaken is about 30m.

Forsakens are pretty much the bar.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#2035 - 2014-02-03 06:14:32 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
How much is each regular hub worth? A forsaken is about 30m.

E: It escalates to FSP which will pretty much guarantee you only get an OSE or tags and ammo.


Its worth a bit over 10m, but doesn't take very long, so you test the escalation chance a lot. At this stage I have no idea how good my estimate for escalation is, I'll see in 100 hubs time...

They have 3-4 BS in each spawn which gives a battleship something it can lock before the pilot dies of old age (unfortunately that fit has no chance of ever getting a sebo on).
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2036 - 2014-02-03 06:22:07 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:

I use sentries just like I also run level 4s much like I've also ran sites and various activities in Null/wh space. My mission ship took a pretty nasty hit from the omni/sentry/stacking nerfs. I run federation omni links which are now barely better then t2. Between that nerf and the main nerf I no longer can reach the tracking I used to have. I probably require three links now to be able to achieve the same level I had with two before. I'm not sure on exactly how many as CCP couldn't be arsed to actually make the change properly. Seeing as how I ran a shield tanked ship that kind of means I have to drop a prop mod or deal with lowered dps. Stoic ran 3x omnis which means his setup ate the nerf even worse then me.

As for your comment "when used correctly" that's code for pulling them into your drone bay over and over. Meaning even less effective dps. Thanks for confirming that point too.


As for your laughable attempt at speeding up the marauder?

First off you can use those same implants in a a HAC so those are completely irrelevant. Second off using those rigs nerfs the dps of the marauder while still not reaching HAC speeds. Thank you come again.


Sentry drones do not need to be pulled in over and over, once you have agro you keep it. Marauders use fewer tanking mods so no, they do not lose out on damage.
ashley Eoner
#2037 - 2014-02-03 06:22:44 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
baltec1 wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:

I use sentries just like I also run level 4s much like I've also ran sites and various activities in Null/wh space. My mission ship took a pretty nasty hit from the omni/sentry/stacking nerfs. I run federation omni links which are now barely better then t2. Between that nerf and the main nerf I no longer can reach the tracking I used to have. I probably require three links now to be able to achieve the same level I had with two before. I'm not sure on exactly how many as CCP couldn't be arsed to actually make the change properly. Seeing as how I ran a shield tanked ship that kind of means I have to drop a prop mod or deal with lowered dps. Stoic ran 3x omnis which means his setup ate the nerf even worse then me.

As for your comment "when used correctly" that's code for pulling them into your drone bay over and over. Meaning even less effective dps. Thanks for confirming that point too.


As for your laughable attempt at speeding up the marauder?

First off you can use those same implants in a a HAC so those are completely irrelevant. Second off using those rigs nerfs the dps of the marauder while still not reaching HAC speeds. Thank you come again.


Sentry drones do not need to be pulled in over and over, once you have agro you keep it. Marauders use fewer tanking mods so no, they do not lose out on damage.
Uh what does tanking mods have to do with applied damage rigs?

When was the last time you did a level 4? When blitzing you tend to trigger waves as fast as possible and every time you trigger a wave you better pull them sentries in or you WILL have aggro on them. In the past you could let them hang out cause they could tank a bit of dps but with the severely nerfed regen you're risking losing time and income through sentry death. Also you could drop the drones earlier pre-nerf because the regen was sufficient to tank a bit. Now you have to make sure you've aggroed completely before dropping.

EDIT : Clarified.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2038 - 2014-02-03 06:43:19 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
ashley Eoner wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Sentry drones do not need to be pulled in over and over, once you have agro you keep it. Marauders use fewer tanking mods so no, they do not lose out on damage.
Uh what does tanking mods have to do with applied damage rigs?

When was the last time you did a level 4? When blitzing you tend to trigger waves as fast as possible and every time you trigger a wave you better pull them sentries in or you WILL have aggro on them. In the past you could let them hang out cause they could tank a bit of dps but with the severely nerfed regen you're risking losing time and income through sentry death. Also you could drop the drones earlier pre-nerf because the regen was sufficient to tank a bit. Now you have to make sure you've aggroed completely before dropping.

EDIT : Clarified.


Kronos doesnt need applied damage rigs. If you do go with the golem then you can simply use a few plugins in your spare implant slots to get the same result. Because of there being fewer slots needed for tank you can fit more tracking, damage, target painters ect.
ashley Eoner
#2039 - 2014-02-03 06:51:27 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Sentry drones do not need to be pulled in over and over, once you have agro you keep it. Marauders use fewer tanking mods so no, they do not lose out on damage.
Uh what does tanking mods have to do with applied damage rigs?

When was the last time you did a level 4? When blitzing you tend to trigger waves as fast as possible and every time you trigger a wave you better pull them sentries in or you WILL have aggro on them. In the past you could let them hang out cause they could tank a bit of dps but with the severely nerfed regen you're risking losing time and income through sentry death. Also you could drop the drones earlier pre-nerf because the regen was sufficient to tank a bit. Now you have to make sure you've aggroed completely before dropping.

EDIT : Clarified.


Kronos doesnt need applied damage rigs. If you do go with the golem then you can simply use a few plugins in your spare implant slots to get the same result. Because of there being fewer slots needed for tank you can fit more tracking, damage, target painters ect.
SO what would be the implants for the golem pilot then?

Isn't the kronos the butt of many a joke anyway?
stoicfaux
#2040 - 2014-02-03 06:52:10 UTC
Sweet Jeebus that was tedious. Just ran a kill all plus bonus room on Angel Extravaganza. Since AE is/was a "standard," here be some numbers just for grins and giggles:

Ship: Vargur - 2.9 AU/s warp speed.

Time: 42m41s (4m26s travel, 38m15s mission)
Distance: 1 jump away for 89.98 AU round trip
Bounties: 29,917,438
Rewards: 4,120,000
LP: 8,509
Salvage: 8,418,901 (per built-in estimator)
Loot: 6,670,000 (per built-in estimator) (~4,575,199 in mineral value, eyeballed local market)

Ammo Expenses: 2,831,824.00 (2,462 of RF Fusion, 78 barrage)

Total assets in isk minus expenses:
@0 isk/LP: 46,294,515 (65,076,241/hour)
@1000 isk/LP: 54,803,515 (77,037,350/hour)
@2000 isk/LP: 63,312,515 (88,998,459/hour)
@3000 isk/LP: 71,821,515 (100,959,568/hour)

So that's ~30M in liquid isk plus another ~12M if you quick sell salvage+loot at 80% value (for ~54M/hour.)


For what it's worth, AE was on the not worth blitzing list. And remember folks, this is just one data point in a "level 4 kill all (no blitzing) with a mediocre marauder" test, so don't read too much into it.


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.