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What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

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Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1901 - 2014-02-02 01:07:43 UTC
i left the thread for like one day and it's turned into the highsec mission !!SCIENCE!! thread
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#1902 - 2014-02-02 01:07:47 UTC
Not exactly setting this up as an average player, are you people?

Then again maybe that's the point, useless for anything other than comparing ideal situations. I presume you will set the same standard of perfection for the null side of this equation. Right?

Apples to apples and all that.

I nominate Infinity for the null runs. Even though he has already shown what the ideal null runner pulls in. It's only fair to do it again so you have the same baseline.

I'd actually be interested in seeing how that pans out.

Mr Epeen Cool
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1903 - 2014-02-02 01:09:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Mr Epeen wrote:
Not exactly setting this up as an average player, are you people?

Then again maybe that's the point, useless for anything other than comparing ideal situations. I presume you will set the same standard of perfection for the null side of this equation. Right?

Apples to apples and all that.

I nominate Infinity for the null runs. Even though he has already shown what the ideal null runner pulls in. It's only fair to do it again so you have the same baseline.

I'd actually be interested in seeing how that pans out.

Mr Epeen Cool


What is the average mission runner?

My hi sec account started as a cyno alt. Its about a year old and sitting in a Golem, not what I would call "ideal" and that would be this toon with my Machariel burning down the world, that thing roars through missions.

Could also take that Mach load some 1400s on and go play with the incursion crews, that makes pretty much anything solo look like chump change.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1904 - 2014-02-02 01:10:14 UTC
Onictus wrote:
La Nariz wrote:

Someone will have to come up with a list of missions to decline.


Anomaly
Massive Attack

After that its a judgement call.

That storyline may be a shipyard, and that is a MINIMUM 25mil reward for not a lot of work.

Likewise if you give no fucks about standings, tag missions (smash the supplier and whatnot) yield 20-30mil in tags.....but most skip them outside of dedicated single empire runners.


Okay so we have a start then, decline anomaly and massive attack. How about something more controversial like fit for a golem/eagle/raven?

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Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1905 - 2014-02-02 01:12:11 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Onictus wrote:
La Nariz wrote:

Someone will have to come up with a list of missions to decline.


Anomaly
Massive Attack

After that its a judgement call.

That storyline may be a shipyard, and that is a MINIMUM 25mil reward for not a lot of work.

Likewise if you give no fucks about standings, tag missions (smash the supplier and whatnot) yield 20-30mil in tags.....but most skip them outside of dedicated single empire runners.


Okay so we have a start then, decline anomaly and massive attack. How about something more controversial like fit for a golem/eagle/raven?



Just a moment let me fire up ze fitter, I JUST went though that exact progression, so I have them saved.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1906 - 2014-02-02 01:13:06 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Not exactly setting this up as an average player, are you people?

Then again maybe that's the point, useless for anything other than comparing ideal situations. I presume you will set the same standard of perfection for the null side of this equation. Right?

Apples to apples and all that.

I nominate Infinity for the null runs. Even though he has already shown what the ideal null runner pulls in. It's only fair to do it again so you have the same baseline.

I'd actually be interested in seeing how that pans out.

Mr Highsec Pubbie Cool


Its far more than anything you've done and by doing the most min/max approach if the max doesn't approach nullsec level income its a non-issue and people like myself who form our opinions based on data/facts will be quiet.

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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#1907 - 2014-02-02 01:13:14 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Not exactly setting this up as an average player, are you people?

Then again maybe that's the point, useless for anything other than comparing ideal situations. I presume you will set the same standard of perfection for the null side of this equation. Right?

Apples to apples and all that.

I nominate Infinity for the null runs. Even though he has already shown what the ideal null runner pulls in. It's only fair to do it again so you have the same baseline.

I'd actually be interested in seeing how that pans out.

Mr Epeen Cool


What is the average mission runner?

My hi sec account started as a cyno alt. Its about a year old and sitting in a Golem, not what I would call "ideal" and that would be this toon with my Machariel burning down the world, that thing roars through missions.

Could also take that Mach load some 1400s on and go play with the incursion crews, that makes pretty much anything solo look like chump change.


Kimmi Chan, you look really tired. Like some ugly bald guy. Get some rest girl!

Mr Epeen Cool
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1908 - 2014-02-02 01:16:41 UTC
[Golem, PvE]

Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Large Micro Jump Drive
Large Shield Booster II
'Stalwart' Particle Field Magnifier
Caldari Navy Kinetic Deflection Field
Caldari Navy Kinetic Deflection Field
Caldari Navy Thermic Dissipation Field
Sensor Booster II

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile
Bastion Module I

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II

That is the ship my alt is sitting in right now to the module the SeBo can be swapped for painters, extenders, afterburner or whatever, it tanks over 1000DPS OMNI with a pair of invulns and a specific (EM or Therm) for about 5 minutes. you can push that to about 1500DPS with specific tank, a pith-c medium and a faction boost amp
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#1909 - 2014-02-02 01:17:46 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Not exactly setting this up as an average player, are you people?

Then again maybe that's the point, useless for anything other than comparing ideal situations. I presume you will set the same standard of perfection for the null side of this equation. Right?

Apples to apples and all that.

I nominate Infinity for the null runs. Even though he has already shown what the ideal null runner pulls in. It's only fair to do it again so you have the same baseline.

I'd actually be interested in seeing how that pans out.

Mr Highsec Pubbie Cool


Its far more than anything you've done and by doing the most min/max approach if the max doesn't approach nullsec level income its a non-issue and people like myself who form our opinions based on data/facts will be quiet.


Fair enough.

But I'd still like to see a legit comparison. That info would come in really handy for you forum warriors that seem to care about actually running missions and stuff for the piddly amount of Iskies you get compared to any of the high paying professions.

Mr Epeen Cool
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1910 - 2014-02-02 01:19:00 UTC
[Raven Navy Issue, T2]

Co-Processor II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

X-Large Shield Booster II
Sensor Booster II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Large Micro Jump Drive
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile

Large Warhead Flare Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II

CNR (for the battleship V deficient) Basic T2 fit, can tank anything in any mission between range and the cap booster.

You can also swap the cap booster for a SeBo but it becomes problematic on a number of Guiista missions because you can't outrange the *******.
stoicfaux
#1911 - 2014-02-02 01:21:48 UTC
Also... If "everyone" is making 100+M isk running level 4s in high sec, then no one is making 100+M isk running level 4s in high sec.

The vast majority of that 100+M is in the form of LP. If everyone is blitzing for LP then the value of LP goes down. In my level 3 ishtar example, the breakdown was:
Bounties: 9.4%
Rewards: 20.1%
LP: 67.2% (@ 2,000 isk/lp)
Salvage: 0.0%
Loot: 2.4%

Never mind the "losses" you incur in the form of market taxes, time to convert LP, freight costs (if you get your tags shipped,) etc.. My very old Mach spreadsheets (pre-TE nerf) for Level 4s showed 69% in LP.


As I understand it, in null-sec, you tend to get more liquid isk, which is probably why null-sec is such a tremendous isk faucet.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1912 - 2014-02-02 01:22:04 UTC
[Raven, raven]

Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Co-Processor II

Large Micro Jump Drive
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier I
X-Large Shield Booster II
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst II

Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5

Base Raven blue print.
Again, cap booster is replaceable.....I like having it because the vanilla Raven has a paper tank on its best day.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1913 - 2014-02-02 01:23:16 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
Mr Epeen wrote:


Fair enough.

But I'd still like to see a legit comparison. That info would come in really handy for you forum warriors that seem to care about actually running missions and stuff for the piddly amount of Iskies you get compared to any of the high paying professions.

Mr Highsec Pubbie Cool


Explain how min/maxing isn't a legit comparison.

E: A less bling fit but no idea if its any good.

[Golem, PVE - Test]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Large Micro Jump Drive
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400
Target Painter II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
EM Ward Field II

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Bastion Module I
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II

Hobgoblin II x5
Hobgoblin II x10

All fives, 57k EHP, 1k DPS, 3.3k tank.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1914 - 2014-02-02 01:26:03 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:


As I understand it, in null-sec, you tend to get more liquid isk, which is probably why null-sec is such a tremendous isk faucet.




Its only liquid isk for the most part.

Short of going on a rated site binge, but that ALSO has issues with freight....and it takes me a LOT longer to sneak a ship to empire than it takes your average mission runner to get to the nearest market hub.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#1915 - 2014-02-02 01:28:46 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:


Fair enough.

But I'd still like to see a legit comparison. That info would come in really handy for you forum warriors that seem to care about actually running missions and stuff for the piddly amount of Iskies you get compared to any of the high paying professions.

Mr Highsec Pubbie Cool


Explain how min/maxing isn't a legit comparison.


Explain how arguing over nickels when everyone else is sitting on hundred dollar bills makes any sense.

I said I'd be interested in seeing a maxed runner in high sec compared to a maxed runner in null sec. And I would be. Are you trying to argue that I don't want to see that?

You need to ease up on the energy drinks, bud.

Mr Epeen Cool
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1916 - 2014-02-02 01:31:58 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:

Explain how arguing over nickels when everyone else is sitting on hundred dollar bills makes any sense.

I said I'd be interested in seeing a maxed runner in high sec compared to a maxed runner in null sec. And I would be. Are you trying to argue that I don't want to see that?

You need to ease up on the energy drinks, bud.

Mr Highsec Pubbie Cool


No I'm calling you out on saying that measuring two min/maxing analogous incomes, anomalies vs missions, isn't comparing "apples to apples." Since you didn't offer a defense I assume you're being a moron.

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Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#1917 - 2014-02-02 01:32:22 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Missions completed and Rewards and Time Bonus

Unauthorized Military Presence - 538000 - 633000
Intercept the Saboteurs - 739000 - 700000
Attack of the Drones -910000 - 729000
Massive Attack - 717000 - 712000
Duo of Death (DECLINED) - NA - NA
Attack of the Drones -663000 -730000
Worlds Collide (NO HACKER CARD) - 1390000 - 1600000
Intercept the Saboteurs - 662000 - 610000
Gone Berserk - 730000 - 1080000
Pirate Invasion - 872000 - 625000
Rogue Slave Trader 1 of 2 - 316000 - 297000
Rogue Slave Trader 2 of 2 - 616000 - 729000
Stop the Thief - 525000 - 577000
Dread Pirate Scarlet (No Gate Key) - 1450000 - 1710000
Unauthorized Military Presence - 693000 - 612000

Time spent in each mission

Unauthorized Military Presence - 18
Intercept the Saboteurs - 21
Attack of the Drones - 17
Massive Attack - 26
Duo of Death (DECLINED) - 0
Attack of the Drones - 10
Worlds Collide (NO HACKER CARD) - 32
Intercept the Saboteurs - 18
Gone Berserk - 11
Pirate Invasion - 25
Rogue Slave Trader 1 of 2 - 8
Rogue Slave Trader 2 of 2 - 9
Stop the Thief - 7
Dread Pirate Scarlet (No Gate Key) - 26
Unauthorized Military Presence - 12

Sorry for the spacing. :/





comparison times are dock - dock - which picks up the typical distance my agent sends me.

serp/gur worlds collide - me - dominix - 3 pockets - 25 minutes (INCLUDING 2 JUMPS)
serp/gur worlds collide - me - kronos + card - 19 minutes (INCLUDING 2 JUMPS)
angel unauthorized military presence - me - navy mega - 10 minutes (INCLUDING 2 JUMPS).
dread pirate scarlet, me - dominix - 25 minutes (INCLUDING 4 JUMPS + LOOT 9.5m IMPLANT).
angel pirate invasion - me - dominix - 17 minutes (no jumps)
drones attack of drones - me dominix - 14 minutes (INCLUDING 2 JUMPS)

sansha rogue slave - reject


Note - you are 50% faster at unauthorized military presence the second time. ie your sample both includes really poor performances by you and plainly you are still learning encounters, and YOU ARE STILL SLOWER THAN A DOMINIX.

I would have been 30 minutes ahead of you at the conclusion of that set of missions (and probably more because your times probably don't include jumps).

Whether you are in null or in high, sucking at fitting and flying spaceships is the same.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#1918 - 2014-02-02 01:35:23 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:

Explain how arguing over nickels when everyone else is sitting on hundred dollar bills makes any sense.

I said I'd be interested in seeing a maxed runner in high sec compared to a maxed runner in null sec. And I would be. Are you trying to argue that I don't want to see that?

You need to ease up on the energy drinks, bud.

Mr Highsec Pubbie Cool


No I'm calling you out on saying that measuring two min/maxing analogous incomes, anomalies vs missions, isn't comparing "apples to apples." Since you didn't offer a defense I assume you're being a moron.


I'd be interested in seeing a maxed runner in high sec compared to a maxed runner in null sec.

Mr Epeen Cool
stoicfaux
#1919 - 2014-02-02 01:49:21 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Okay, digging up a spreadsheet from last Dec/Jan of 2012/2013 flying an MWD Mach in 0.5 Minnie space (pre-TE nerf, mineral value of loot, old warp speeds, old salvage/mineral/ammo prices, etc.) for one agent, with minimal, if any, cherry picking, (aside from declining low-sec and faction missions:)

Total time: 11h54m
Travel time: 3h:57m (~33%)
Mission time: 7h:57m (~67%)

Num missions: 79 (76 in MWD Mach, 3 in Vargur)
Average Mission Time: 9m2s (travel + in mission)

Total isk in assets: 1,414,129,147 (1.4 billion)
Total after ammo costs: 1,368,808,427 (1.4 billion)

Average isk/hour: ~118M isk

Earnings Breakdown
Bounties15%
Reward 15%
LP 69% (@ 2,000 isk/lp)
Salvage 0%
Loot 0%

Ammo Expenses 1.88%

edit: fixed earnings breakdown percentages


edit2:
Mission Times: (to compare with Kimmi Chan)
UAM ~9m
intercept the sabo 10-12m
attack of the drones: 4-6m
massive attack 14m
gone berserk ~7m
rogue slave 1 ~6m
rogue slave 2 ~6m
stop the thief 3 - 5 m (~1m in mission)
Dread Pirate 6-7m

edit3: If you increase travel time by 50% (a 20AU jump that took 37s prior to Rubicon, now takes 54s), then my Mach numbers are ~14 hours of missioning which comes out to ~101M isk/hour.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#1920 - 2014-02-02 01:49:44 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Missions completed and Rewards and Time Bonus

Unauthorized Military Presence - 538000 - 633000
Intercept the Saboteurs - 739000 - 700000
Attack of the Drones -910000 - 729000
Massive Attack - 717000 - 712000
Duo of Death (DECLINED) - NA - NA
Attack of the Drones -663000 -730000
Worlds Collide (NO HACKER CARD) - 1390000 - 1600000
Intercept the Saboteurs - 662000 - 610000
Gone Berserk - 730000 - 1080000
Pirate Invasion - 872000 - 625000
Rogue Slave Trader 1 of 2 - 316000 - 297000
Rogue Slave Trader 2 of 2 - 616000 - 729000
Stop the Thief - 525000 - 577000
Dread Pirate Scarlet (No Gate Key) - 1450000 - 1710000
Unauthorized Military Presence - 693000 - 612000

Time spent in each mission

Unauthorized Military Presence - 18
Intercept the Saboteurs - 21
Attack of the Drones - 17
Massive Attack - 26
Duo of Death (DECLINED) - 0
Attack of the Drones - 10
Worlds Collide (NO HACKER CARD) - 32
Intercept the Saboteurs - 18
Gone Berserk - 11
Pirate Invasion - 25
Rogue Slave Trader 1 of 2 - 8
Rogue Slave Trader 2 of 2 - 9
Stop the Thief - 7
Dread Pirate Scarlet (No Gate Key) - 26
Unauthorized Military Presence - 12

Sorry for the spacing. :/





comparison times are dock - dock - which picks up the typical distance my agent sends me.

serp/gur worlds collide - me - dominix - 3 pockets - 25 minutes (INCLUDING 2 JUMPS)
serp/gur worlds collide - me - kronos + card - 19 minutes (INCLUDING 2 JUMPS)
angel unauthorized military presence - me - navy mega - 10 minutes (INCLUDING 2 JUMPS).
dread pirate scarlet, me - dominix - 25 minutes (INCLUDING 4 JUMPS + LOOT 9.5m IMPLANT).
angel pirate invasion - me - dominix - 17 minutes (no jumps)
drones attack of drones - me dominix - 14 minutes (INCLUDING 2 JUMPS)

sansha rogue slave - reject


Note - you are 50% faster at unauthorized military presence the second time. ie your sample both includes really poor performances by you and plainly you are still learning encounters, and YOU ARE STILL SLOWER THAN A DOMINIX.

I would have been 30 minutes ahead of you at the conclusion of that set of missions (and probably more because your times probably don't include jumps).

Whether you are in null or in high, sucking at fitting and flying spaceships is the same.




The times listed are the time lapsed between accepting the mission from the agent and completing the mission with the agent. Jumps are detailed on the spreadsheet.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

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