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Balancing: Caldari Hybrid Shield vs. Amarr Laser Armor
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Redklaw
Edge Of Infinity
True Reign
#41 - 2011-11-25 17:16:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Redklaw
Claymore and Eos have different support roles than both the other Fleet CS'es (if Eos even has one period). I think that Fleet CS'es are being overshadowed by T3's anyways as they have better bonuses, less of a SP barrier, and can covert cloak. There needs to be a boost to the bonuses to Fleet CS'es or a reduction to the T3 Warfare subsystem to match the level of parity we see with the logistics and ewar subs.

That said, I don't think the overall point the OP is trying to make is specific to CS'es.
Destructor1792
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2011-11-25 17:26:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Destructor1792
I do fully understand that, yet to make a more balanced picture all 4 should be included.

I guess a better picture would be painted if "All" ships that can use Gang Links are used & broken down. That way the overall picture is much clearer & everyone can see what needs either buffing or nerfing.
And totally agree on them being overshadowed by T3's.. I forsee the Nerf bat being swung wildly in the near future Blink

Not fired a shot in anger since 2011.... Trigger finger is starting to get somewhat itchy.......
David Clausewitz
David Clausewitz Corporation
#43 - 2011-11-25 18:25:52 UTC  |  Edited by: David Clausewitz
Moonaura wrote:
David Clausewitz wrote:
You're complaining about Damnation having so much more tank when the caldari counterpart does over 50% more damage.

Also, while we're at it balancing ships, let's put the Legion on par with the Tengu, shall we?


Thanks for the feedback. Shocked

The Damnation in my fit does 80 DPS, while the Vulture does 121 DPS. That is 41 increase, which is technically only about 25% increase. If you believe that 41 DPS is the difference between winning and losing, compared to a larger signature, more that 60% smaller EHP and the worst resist against Alpha Explosive damage, then...*sigh* honestly, is this worth a real response?

As for the Legion and Tengu, if you read my posts above, you will see, I have indeed compared the T3 Strategic Cruisers, and believe these to be pretty well balanced as things go, given the differences.

Where I think Amarr ships are also weak, I promise to point it out. A good example, is when I compare the Drake to say, the Prophecy - the Prophecy could actually be a very similar ship to the Drake - it has similar EHP, lower signature, but sadly, does far to little DPS, and I promise to point these sort of inbalances out to make EvE have more choice - because... erm... yeah Prophecy's are so popular at the moment.


Your math is bad. 50% of 81 is roughly 40, 81 + 40 = 121.

If it was a 25% increase, you would only have 101 dps on the Vulture instead of 121.
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#44 - 2011-11-25 18:39:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Destructor1792 wrote:
I do fully understand that, yet to make a more balanced picture all 4 should be included.

I guess a better picture would be painted if "All" ships that can use Gang Links are used & broken down. That way the overall picture is much clearer & everyone can see what needs either buffing or nerfing.
And totally agree on them being overshadowed by T3's.. I forsee the Nerf bat being swung wildly in the near future Blink



I can do that for sure, and personally, I fly both Claymore and Damnation in armor fleets.

As Redklaw suggested though, these have different support roles that the two main ones, but I grant you, in a shield gang, a Claymore is very useful. Ironically, however, the Eos, a native armour tanker - is best used, in supporting shield ECM fleets, sitting in a squad of ECM boat, with one of it's gang link specifically dedicated to improving ECM strength.

Equally, in an armour gang, the Claymore is extremely fragile when setup to support armour fleets, and I fly it with remote ECCM modules in the mids, which, in turn negates the real need for the Eos. Because, honestly, give an FC the choice between another Logistics ship, or a Eos as a squad boost - they tend to take the Logistics ship.

While it is true the claymore has a big effect on signature size of shield ships, it still does nothing to help it with the resists or EHP which are also the core issue.

But as requested, here are the extra details with a Claymore, please note base speed is not improved on ships, only AB and MWD speed, and I'm assuming that, hopefully not many people tank with the MWD on in a command ship! Lol:

Vulture:
Normal Signature: 367m
Signature Claymore: 272m.
Signature Halo Set + Claymore: 224m

Damnation:
Normal Signature: 265m
Signature Claymore: 196m
Naturally, the Damnation pilot would always pick Slave over Halo, given the ship's large armor HP and the way the set % works.

Basilisk:
Normal Signature: 128m
Signature Claymore: 95m
AB Normal: 595 m/s
AB Claymore: 662 m/s

Guardian:
Normal Signature: 70m (yes... 70!)
Signature Claymore: 52m
AB Normal: 567 m/s
AB Claymore: 649 m/s

Results:

While this helps bring the Vulture down to normal Battlecruiser size, the Damnation now has almost the same signature as the new Oracle - which has a very small 180m signature that is designed to go hand in hand with the Oracle's speed. But however you slice it, Claymore or not, the Vulture still will take more damage from enemy ships than the Damnation, while it has 60% less EHP.

As for the Basilisk vs. Guardian - well.... I knew this already, but the signature on the Guardian is just scary. It has the same signature as a shield frigate folks! I mean - Battleships will really struggle to track and hit that small signature, given it's massive EHP, and very solid resists, this is why it is the best logistics ship in the game. The new Oneiros now has identical signature incidental - and has the potential to out repair the Guardian with four large T2 remote repairs and 5 medium logistics drones, although its tank is not as solid, it can be made to be pretty close. The Basilisk again, loses out, taking more damage, from bigger ships and very good damage from medium guns, with it's lack of ECCM to get that original EHP number and resists, it is really no where near good enough to compare.

I have tried to avoid talking about other races in these threads, as I think they have other roles and strengths, and well... just weaknesses in the case of Gallente, but I have stated just yesterday on a different forum, that the Eos in particular needs a good looking at, and have previously suggested that it regains its original Drone bay and Drone Bandwidth, before it was nerfed. I honestly, don't see many Eos's around, and it is very hard to justify the 30+ day training time for the Information Warfare links, although I have considered it.

Feedback welcome.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#45 - 2011-11-25 18:51:43 UTC
David Clausewitz wrote:
Moonaura wrote:
David Clausewitz wrote:
You're complaining about Damnation having so much more tank when the caldari counterpart does over 50% more damage.

Also, while we're at it balancing ships, let's put the Legion on par with the Tengu, shall we?


Thanks for the feedback. Shocked

The Damnation in my fit does 80 DPS, while the Vulture does 121 DPS. That is 41 increase, which is technically only about 25% increase. If you believe that 41 DPS is the difference between winning and losing, compared to a larger signature, more that 60% smaller EHP and the worst resist against Alpha Explosive damage, then...*sigh* honestly, is this worth a real response?


Your math is bad. 50% of 81 is roughly 40, 81 + 40 = 121.

If it was a 25% increase, you would only have 101 dps on the Vulture instead of 121.



My apologies, I was looking at this from the perspective of the Vulture's DPS in comparison.

However, even with this massive... 50% more DPS (I'll try not to laugh too hard) do you honestly believe, that the Vulture is therefore 'Balanced' because it does a massive 41 DPS than the Claymore?

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Mr Painless
Perkone
Caldari State
#46 - 2011-11-25 18:55:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Painless
Covert Kitty wrote:
So.. you pick a certain metric, and are surprised when ships designed for that niche do well vs others? Yes Amarr bs's are generally the best fleet bs's. In eve balance is game wide, it's wrong to think of a notion of balance between races, there isn't. You choose to train various races/ships for their various strengths. You don't go and say "I'm a caldari pilot only" you train all of them. Caldari have the Tengu and drake, ravens are the highest dps pos bashing bs in the game, caldari has the best ecm in the game.

forget the whole notion of even balance between races, it doesn't exist, it shouldn't exist.



Concerning niche and metric... both amarr and caldari occupy a niche of strong buffered armor/shield tank with things like speed or agility being secondary. Although I'm certainly not advocating that all races should have the same performance in a certain niche, differencing only in flavor, it's obvious that some amarr ships have a significant advantage in the same role and with the same basic approach to design (the only difference being armor vs. shield). The mentioned examples of Basilisk vs. Guardian, Rokh vs. Abaddon and Damnation vs. Vulture clearly show this.
Each ship pair fulfills a certain role based partly on strong buffer tank, but amarr ships are clearly superior.
Also, someone mentioned that Vulture has 50% more DPS than Damnation. Well, DPS is not the purpose of Fleet CS. Besides, having 120 DPS on a T2 BC hull is just as crappy as having 80.
Another example of this is Onyx vs. Devoter (I know, Onyx is not a hybrid ship, but it still has similar issues compared to Devoter). Devoter has some 30-40% more EHP than Onyx (EHP is absolutely crucial stat for HICs), plus has free mid slots for cap/sensor booster or web. You could again make an argument that Onyx has more DPS than Devoter, but they are still both very lacking in that department, and it's not their role anyway.
On ships where DPS IS an important factor, lasers are win over hybrids.

Another thing worth mentioning is that when you consider the tradeoffs you have to make in order to get more EHP on a ship, you must either cut your speed (for armor) or boost your sig (for shield). Well, caldari ships are both the slowest in game and also have the biggest basic signature. Amarr ships are better in both stats to begin with, and even with plate(s) fitted are sometimes still faster than their caldari counterparts. Not to mention absolutely no sig increase due to tank.

Once again, I'm not advocating that they should be completely even, just tweak them a little, so the difference is not that big.
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#47 - 2011-11-25 19:06:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
The Onyx is a good ship to also examine actually, as you're quite right, it suffers the same issues of a large signature and less EHP than the Devoter.

I agree and also worry about making them to similar, I am really keen to keep the races different, there are distinct differences in weapon focuses and damage that should keep them unique. I don't see matching the EHP and Resists so Caldari can compete in fleets, something that will make them to identical - I think it will just make them viable.

For Caldari, the mid slots will still be at a premium, which means for fleet tactics, things like tacklers have to be considered to make the fleets work.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Jaigar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2011-11-25 19:24:02 UTC
Moonaura wrote:
While it is true the claymore has a big effect on signature size of shield ships, it still does nothing to help it with the resists or EHP which are also the core issue.

Sig radius helps tremendously on certain ships and setups. With the New T2 ganglinks, a scimitar will have a 42.25 sig radius, which is TINY. Sig radius affects missiles the most, BUT it still has tremendous effects on tracking. Like stated above, BSs can have a hard time tracking guardians, but if you use sig radius reduction link, this effect is more profound. Then you can factor in how the speed bonus and its effect on tank, and its pretty significant too.

Like people stated above, EFT is not the standard for determining ship balance.
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#49 - 2011-11-25 19:29:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Jaigar wrote:
Moonaura wrote:
While it is true the claymore has a big effect on signature size of shield ships, it still does nothing to help it with the resists or EHP which are also the core issue.

Sig radius helps tremendously on certain ships and setups. With the New T2 ganglinks, a scimitar will have a 42.25 sig radius, which is TINY. Sig radius affects missiles the most, BUT it still has tremendous effects on tracking. Like stated above, BSs can have a hard time tracking guardians, but if you use sig radius reduction link, this effect is more profound. Then you can factor in how the speed bonus and its effect on tank, and its pretty significant too.

Like people stated above, EFT is not the standard for determining ship balance.


I totally agree with you on all accounts, however, the signature is still larger on all the Caldari boats, even with Claymore and Halo sets - so.... they are REALLY at a massive disadvantage, given the also, relatively weak EHP to signature ratio.

I hadn't considered the T2 Gang Links yet, although I can test the Damnation and Claymore's on SISI, it is awkward, but this will mean the Damnation will be even better, the core issues will remain.

And yes EFT is not the standard the game is, however... if Caldari was balanced and its massive signature, smaller EHP were not at issue, why aren't we seeing massive gangs of Rokhs everywhere? And the Triage carrier is laughable compared to Amarr, it doesn't even get close, but that is another story.

The fact remains, Basilisk pilots will take substantially more damage than Guardian pilots, bigger ships will hit them harder, medium ships love them, and yet they have no ECCM and 40% less EHP. It just isn't balanced.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Hamatitio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#50 - 2011-11-25 19:38:13 UTC
To point something out:

The mindlink is a slot 10 implant, and the omega is a slot 6 implant. So there isn't a reason you cant have a full implant set and the related mindlink (which of course further pushes the EHP of the damnation ahead).

That is of course unless the slots are being changed in the upcoming patch, at which point, ignore this :P
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#51 - 2011-11-25 20:02:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Hamatitio wrote:
To point something out:

The mindlink is a slot 10 implant, and the omega is a slot 6 implant. So there isn't a reason you cant have a full implant set and the related mindlink (which of course further pushes the EHP of the damnation ahead).

That is of course unless the slots are being changed in the upcoming patch, at which point, ignore this :P


Dude, you are 100% right. I was thinking of the overlap with the power implant for guardian and CPU implant for basilisk.

I have corrected the original and related posts.

This gives the Damnation a whopping 565,000 EHP of pure cap free tank. Wow. It also means I need to address the Halo set numbers, brings the vulture down to 303m, sadly still less than impressive with 200,000 EHP unoverloaded tank.

EDIT: Wonder what the EHP will be like with the T2 gang links? Pushing close to 600,000 EHP I would imagine, still only about 240,000 overloaded for the Vulture.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Midori Tsu
Evolution
Northern Coalition.
#52 - 2011-11-25 20:39:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Midori Tsu
I'd like to point out the fact that you are putting FACTION resist mods for the armor ships while still only using a T2 invuln for the shield ships.

If your going to compare the two, might i suggest either comparing full t2 or full faction? If you are going to argue using the price of faction invulns as a reason not to use them, then just compare full T2.


At the moment, i can hardly take this as a serious suggestion when you are comparing full faction tanks with mostly T2 tanks.


P.S. Also, please compare these two without implants, not every single damnation out there uses a full slave set.
Mr Painless
Perkone
Caldari State
#53 - 2011-11-25 20:58:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Painless
Midori Tsu wrote:
I'd like to point out the fact that you are putting FACTION resist mods for the armor ships while still only using a T2 invuln for the shield ships.

If your going to compare the two, might i suggest either comparing full t2 or full faction? If you are going to argue using the price of faction invulns as a reason not to use them, then just compare full T2.


At the moment, i can hardly take this as a serious suggestion when you are comparing full faction tanks with mostly T2 tanks.


P.S. Also, please compare these two without implants, not every single damnation out there uses a full slave set.



To put it in a simplest way... even with plain T2/meta 4 fits and no implants, amarr ships mentioned in comparisons are still significantly superior.
Midori Tsu
Evolution
Northern Coalition.
#54 - 2011-11-25 21:12:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Midori Tsu
Mr Painless wrote:
Midori Tsu wrote:
I'd like to point out the fact that you are putting FACTION resist mods for the armor ships while still only using a T2 invuln for the shield ships.

If your going to compare the two, might i suggest either comparing full t2 or full faction? If you are going to argue using the price of faction invulns as a reason not to use them, then just compare full T2.


At the moment, i can hardly take this as a serious suggestion when you are comparing full faction tanks with mostly T2 tanks.


P.S. Also, please compare these two without implants, not every single damnation out there uses a full slave set.



To put it in a simplest way... even with plain T2/meta 4 fits and no implants, amarr ships mentioned in comparisons are still significantly superior.



Significantly? I'd have to disagree with that. I did my own comparison of the damnation and vulture. In my comparison i did full t2 fit, with a mindlink and recieving bonuses. And what i saw was that the damnation wasn't significantly superior to the vulture.

What should also be looked at is the vulture's command bonuses and compare them to the damnation's. maybe instead of getting that second range bonus it gets a shield ehp bonus similar to that of the damnation? I don't agree with increasing the resists.

Although i do agree the basilisk is significantly inferior to the guardian. No argument there.
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#55 - 2011-11-25 21:30:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Midori Tsu wrote:
I'd like to point out the fact that you are putting FACTION resist mods for the armor ships while still only using a T2 invuln for the shield ships.

If your going to compare the two, might i suggest either comparing full t2 or full faction? If you are going to argue using the price of faction invulns as a reason not to use them, then just compare full T2.


At the moment, i can hardly take this as a serious suggestion when you are comparing full faction tanks with mostly T2 tanks.


P.S. Also, please compare these two without implants, not every single damnation out there uses a full slave set.


The reason for this, is that these fits are actually meant to be realistic, and I am sorry, ISK is a factor in EvE. I flew with an alliance that specifically rolled with very superior fits to get the edge while being outnumbered. They push the math in everything they do.

While not everyone will buy halo or slave sets, given the massive EHP numbers gained on the Damnation, fitting faction is not unrealistic. The Dread Guristas Invulnerability Module is 500m isk. You are welcome to fit it if you wish Big smile but I think most pilots would walk away from that deal!

Imperial Navy Energised Adaptive Plates however, go for 43m last time I bought some, although given current prices, might be higher now, but still... they haven't reached the same silly heights that the Dread Guristas Invul has. Specific hardners are no where near as bad, the True Sansha armor hardeners are typically 10-15m isk and use 20 less CPU each over T2 versions.

For 500m isk you can but Dead Space armor hardeners.

The reason the faction invun is so expensive, is simple - its the only thing on offer, where as armour has lots more choices, and therefore, much higher drop rates of all the different types.

This is actually the subject of another post I am preparing, because again, shields are at a massive disadvantage on the market and fitting here, but seeing as you brought it up, I'll post it here.

Shield ships also do not have any all round passive resistance modules that Armour tanks get, while Armour gets both specific passive hardners, and two types of passive universal hardners in adaptive and energised adaptive plating.

In addition, Caldari - even with their brightest minds and superior shields - somehow have also not figured out how to resist against EM damage on all but T2 ships, where they get a nice 25% resistance. Compare that to a claymore, that gets 75% resist to EM. Sucks to be a Caldari pilot I guess!

As the Damnation shows, the Amarr have the best overall balanced resists against all damage types - it doesn't have resistance hole to fill, where as the other races have to tend to fill holes in resists, even with T2 version ships.

It is also worth noting this little known fact:

T2 Energised Adaptive Plates give 20% resist bonus.
Imperial Navy Faction give 28% resist bonus - an 8% increase for faction.

Invulnerability Field T2 gives 30% resist bonus.
Best Faction Invulnerability gives 37.5 resist bonus - a 7.5% increase for faction, for 500m isk, you'd sort of want them to at least 8% right?

These little amounts, do... sadly add up, and with limited CPU and the need to fit large shield extenders to gain EHP, adding two faction shield invulnerabilities is not really that viable a lot of the time. But only highsec carebears and carrier pilots feel they can afford to fit the faction invulnerability fields. I mean two of those is a billion isk! Thats nuts!

While I appreciate that faction distorts base numbers, and not everyone uses slaves etc, these do serve to highlight the massive differences between the race and tank types.

Hope this helps explain why I didn't fit them! And damn, it isn't getting any better for Caldari is it!

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Mr Painless
Perkone
Caldari State
#56 - 2011-11-25 21:38:25 UTC
Midori Tsu wrote:
Mr Painless wrote:
Midori Tsu wrote:
I'd like to point out the fact that you are putting FACTION resist mods for the armor ships while still only using a T2 invuln for the shield ships.

If your going to compare the two, might i suggest either comparing full t2 or full faction? If you are going to argue using the price of faction invulns as a reason not to use them, then just compare full T2.


At the moment, i can hardly take this as a serious suggestion when you are comparing full faction tanks with mostly T2 tanks.


P.S. Also, please compare these two without implants, not every single damnation out there uses a full slave set.



To put it in a simplest way... even with plain T2/meta 4 fits and no implants, amarr ships mentioned in comparisons are still significantly superior.



Significantly? I'd have to disagree with that. I did my own comparison of the damnation and vulture. In my comparison i did full t2 fit, with a mindlink and recieving bonuses. And what i saw was that the damnation wasn't significantly superior to the vulture.

What should also be looked at is the vulture's command bonuses and compare them to the damnation's. maybe instead of getting that second range bonus it gets a shield ehp bonus similar to that of the damnation? I don't agree with increasing the resists.

Although i do agree the basilisk is significantly inferior to the guardian. No argument there.



OK, I don't know what fits you compared, but look at this:

[Damnation, Damnation-test]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 100
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator
Warp Disruptor II

Armored Warfare Link - Damage Control
Armored Warfare Link - Passive Defense
Armored Warfare Link - Rapid Repair
Assault Missile Launcher II, Guristas Sabretooth Light Missile
Assault Missile Launcher II, Guristas Sabretooth Light Missile
Assault Missile Launcher II, Guristas Sabretooth Light Missile
Assault Missile Launcher II, Guristas Sabretooth Light Missile

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

This is basically the same fit as in the OP, without faction gear and with T1 rigs. It says 319k EHP, everything else pretty much stays the same. Compared to Vulture in the OP, with 1 faction hardener and T2 rigs, with 201k EHP.
I'd call that a significant difference.
You?
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#57 - 2011-11-25 21:43:40 UTC
Mr Painless wrote:
Midori Tsu wrote:
Mr Painless wrote:
Midori Tsu wrote:
I'd like to point out the fact that you are putting FACTION resist mods for the armor ships while still only using a T2 invuln for the shield ships.

If your going to compare the two, might i suggest either comparing full t2 or full faction? If you are going to argue using the price of faction invulns as a reason not to use them, then just compare full T2.


At the moment, i can hardly take this as a serious suggestion when you are comparing full faction tanks with mostly T2 tanks.


P.S. Also, please compare these two without implants, not every single damnation out there uses a full slave set.



To put it in a simplest way... even with plain T2/meta 4 fits and no implants, amarr ships mentioned in comparisons are still significantly superior.



Significantly? I'd have to disagree with that. I did my own comparison of the damnation and vulture. In my comparison i did full t2 fit, with a mindlink and recieving bonuses. And what i saw was that the damnation wasn't significantly superior to the vulture.

What should also be looked at is the vulture's command bonuses and compare them to the damnation's. maybe instead of getting that second range bonus it gets a shield ehp bonus similar to that of the damnation? I don't agree with increasing the resists.

Although i do agree the basilisk is significantly inferior to the guardian. No argument there.



OK, I don't know what fits you compared, but look at this:

[Damnation, Damnation-test]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 100
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator
Warp Disruptor II

Armored Warfare Link - Damage Control
Armored Warfare Link - Passive Defense
Armored Warfare Link - Rapid Repair
Assault Missile Launcher II, Guristas Sabretooth Light Missile
Assault Missile Launcher II, Guristas Sabretooth Light Missile
Assault Missile Launcher II, Guristas Sabretooth Light Missile
Assault Missile Launcher II, Guristas Sabretooth Light Missile

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

This is basically the same fit as in the OP, without faction gear and with T1 rigs. It says 319k EHP, everything else pretty much stays the same. Compared to Vulture in the OP, with 1 faction hardener and T2 rigs, with 201k EHP.
I'd call that a significant difference.
You?


Thanks Mr Painless, saved me a job there!

Please don't forget the signature size, this means the Vulture will take significantly more damage, far faster from bigger and medium ships, which means the EHP is realistically even less valuable than on the Damnation.

Honestly, it is REALLY hard to find positives for Fleet fit Caldari ships here folks, I am trying to be fair in all of this, but the lack of their actual use in the game, signifies what the results here are telling us.

The only reason people bring Vultures to gangs, is they have no other choice. Where there is a choice for shield logistics, everyone brings Scimitars, even though they transfer significantly less shield amounts than the Basilisk, they are hard to catch. Oh... and you can fit a gun on them and get on kill mails. I wish this wasn't the reason they are used, but it sadly a factor for people flying them.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Midori Tsu
Evolution
Northern Coalition.
#58 - 2011-11-25 21:50:14 UTC
118k ehp isn't a significant difference to me, sorry.
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#59 - 2011-11-25 21:54:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Midori Tsu wrote:
118k ehp isn't a significant difference to me, sorry.


*sigh* you are taking more damage because you are a bigger target.... and when you fail to get that repair in time because you ran out of EHP because the Tempest Fleet Alpha'd you to crap in one volley, you can run off and buy another Vulture, and because you are dead, your superior Caldari fleet will lose a ton of resist and logistics repair bonuses, so they can all run off any buy new ships too! Twisted

And as shown... shields can not be pushed any higher without billions of isk being spent on the fitting, and a billion for the Halo set (Which doesn't even take the signature below armor levels) where as Armor just runs away with massive gains when using relatively cheap faction pieces, and a slave set. They just do not compare. At all. Not even close.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#60 - 2011-11-25 22:01:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Just for the fun of it, if you did spend half a billion isk on a Dread Gurista Invunerability field, the Vulture would still only reach 267,035 EHP overloaded, and 221,035 EHP normal - with a larger signature than the Damnation still, while the Damnation, with the smaller signature does 565,000... I mean come on! It is going even higher in 3 days time folks.

No wonder everyone on the forums become hardened bitter vets... it's like herding cats.

EDIT: Now where did I put my Valium Roll

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans