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Is the new "bullet time" / time diliation feature going to completely KILL EvE?

First post
Author
CCP Veritas
C C P
C C P Alliance
#61 - 2011-09-10 16:01:43 UTC
J0HN RAMB0 wrote:
Will time dilation affect aggression timers and log-off-despawn timers?


Yes.

CCP Veritas - Technical Director - EVE Online

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#62 - 2011-09-10 16:08:30 UTC
xxxak wrote:

I am just saying that I hope that this is implemented very carefully, with a lot of user input and testing.


it's lovely you'd like that from ccp

i'd like a unicorn

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#63 - 2011-09-10 16:10:39 UTC
we don't always test our code

but when we do, we test it by pushing it live to the server and watching what happens

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Arbiter Reformed
I Have a Plan
Shadow Cartel
#64 - 2011-09-10 16:19:43 UTC
i think this is a great idea, reshipping issues as already mentioned are good for economy

but isnt lag a wider issue of game design? if 3 years ago fights were 3x smaller surley in 3 years theyl be 3 times bigger, which means more lag. dont there need to be game design changes to stop lag aswel?
Rhaegor Stormborn
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2011-09-10 16:26:17 UTC
CCP Veritas wrote:
To say what Tippia said in different words...

Most of the things we talk about when we talk about "fixing fleet lag" have to do with increasing the capacity of these fights, that is, the number of players it takes to make the server start exhibiting "lag". Team Gridlock has been at that for over a year now, and have delivered very good results.

Time Dilation does not increase capacity at all. These days we handle about 1000 players (more or less depending on the type of activity being done) before lag starts kicking in. The day after we ship Time Dilation, it'll be exactly the same. The difference is what happens *after* that threshold is passed. Instead of the effects we all know and hate, it'll simply slow the game down until able to cope with the load.

After we ship, we plan to go back to work increasing capacity. These things are not mutually-exclusive. Rather, they're quite complementary.



As long as dialation only kicks in when there otherwise would be extreme lag, that would be fine, but ruining normal fleet fights which we have played with for many years now with slowed down time would be terrible. It would seriously dumb down the game giving the lesser skilled players and FCs more time to think and react.

I have been in many a large engagement in the past 5 years, and over the past two or so years, lag has very rarely been an issue.
Sabrina Storm
Doomheim
#66 - 2011-09-10 16:35:48 UTC
Already forgetting how Time Dilation will work? Perchance some have not read this yet then? Perhaps read it first then make comments second. Time Dilation, again
Digital Messiah
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2011-09-10 16:45:22 UTC
Q: Will Carbon IO work along with time dilation?
A:

Q: What results can we expect from Carbon IO to improve cluster performance alone?
A:

Q: How long will TIDI run in a system, If enabled? "until the cluster is free of lag, or is lessened in lag."
A:

Q: As Carbon IO allows C++ code. When can we expect to see C++ integrated?
A:

Q: What is your perfect Sunday?
A:

Something clever

CCP Veritas
C C P
C C P Alliance
#68 - 2011-09-10 17:16:34 UTC
Digital Messiah wrote:
Q: Will Carbon IO work along with time dilation?


Carbon IO is a system that allows for lightweight communication between the cluster and the clients. In other words, it's a new mechanism by which our computers talk to your computer. It has nothing conflicting with Time Dilation.

Digital Messiah wrote:
Q: What results can we expect from Carbon IO to improve cluster performance alone?


It has very little benefit to cluster capacity by itself. It enables us, the programmers in Eve, to use a new communications method in new code, which we're planning to do but nothing has happened yet.

Digital Messiah wrote:
Q: How long will TIDI run in a system, If enabled? "until the cluster is free of lag, or is lessened in lag."


TiDi will kick in when a node has become overloaded and will stop when that node is no longer overloaded. Do note that only that node is effected, not the whole cluster.

Digital Messiah wrote:
Q: As Carbon IO allows C++ code. When can we expect to see C++ integrated?


We already have some C++ systems. Carbon IO allows C++ code on the server to communicate directly to C++ code on the client via BlueNet, which is a new capability that makes it easier for us to move performance-critical systems over to C++, which was already on our roadmap to do. That it's easier and more effective for us to do now means it's higher on our priority list than it was before.

Digital Messiah wrote:
Q: What is your perfect Sunday?


Common decency forbids me from answering this.

CCP Veritas - Technical Director - EVE Online

Dracoliche
Fried Plantains
#69 - 2011-09-10 17:29:59 UTC
CCP Veritas wrote:

Digital Messiah wrote:
Q: What is your perfect Sunday?


Common decency forbids me from answering this.


Who is Common Decency and how much does she/he charge?

As far as time dil., +1. Imagine what the FC's can accomplish with that extra time.
Kerdrak
Querry Moon
#70 - 2011-09-10 18:46:20 UTC
CCP Veritas wrote:


TiDi will kick in when a node has become overloaded and will stop when that node is no longer overloaded. Do note that only that node is effected, not the whole cluster.
.


So, if a node have a small skirmish in another system with like 4-10 ships, it will be affected too, right?
CCP Veritas
C C P
C C P Alliance
#71 - 2011-09-10 18:59:46 UTC
Yes, if a large scale fight breaks out on a non-reinforced node, other systems hosted on the same node will slow down as well. While this isn't ideal, it's still considerably better than what happens today.

CCP Veritas - Technical Director - EVE Online

Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#72 - 2011-09-10 19:27:55 UTC
CCP Veritas wrote:
Yes, if a large scale fight breaks out on a non-reinforced node, other systems hosted on the same node will slow down as well. While this isn't ideal, it's still considerably better than what happens today.


Have you decided yet if you will be showing which systems are using TiDi on the map like other states of the game or will FC's have to send scouts out to see what the state of other systems are?

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#73 - 2011-09-10 19:27:55 UTC
CCP Veritas wrote:
Yes, if a large scale fight breaks out on a non-reinforced node, other systems hosted on the same node will slow down as well. While this isn't ideal, it's still considerably better than what happens today.


Anything to make the game playable in large fleet battles...

I've been avoiding them all together because I can't even jump into a loaded system without getting insta popped before my client catches up. "bullet time" will allow for several new styles of game play I think... I alrady have some ideas Twisted

Looking forward to it...

I'm really optimistic about the future of our game now... Big smile

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Skex Relbore
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2011-09-10 20:02:31 UTC
CCP Veritas wrote:
Yes, if a large scale fight breaks out on a non-reinforced node, other systems hosted on the same node will slow down as well. While this isn't ideal, it's still considerably better than what happens today.


Is there any correlation between the "locations" of the systems and which nodes they run on? IOW would a shared node tend to handle multiple systems in the same constellation or is it more or less random?

If the former that's probably actually a good thing since it will address some of the concerns about people taking advantage of the timeflow difference to bring in reinforcements.

In fact it seems like it would be a good idea to spread the dilation affect out 2 or 3 systems from the affected system to address that concern.
Arklan1
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2011-09-10 20:16:34 UTC
i am extremely excited to see this.
Sekket
Perkone
Caldari State
#76 - 2011-09-11 07:20:54 UTC
Dr Slaughter wrote:
OP.. it's SO easy to re-write the GIL to take advantage of multi-core processors that's why no one has bothered to do it for YEARS

Roll


Actually the way to do it is to split the work up into separate processes and have the processes communicate over IPC. It's been done since Unix was young, but seems to be something of a lost art. Googles Chrome seems to have resurrected interest in the approach.
  • CQ isn't a refuge, it's a cage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iu4iekX3WE

Leon Razor
Measure Zero
#77 - 2011-09-11 07:30:11 UTC
Ok, I know info about DUST 514 is being tightly controlled by CCP, but I need to know that the people working on time dilation have thought about how this will work with DUST. CCP has confirmed that there will be live interaction between combat on the ground and ships in orbit. I can see slowing time in EVE to fix lag working well, but I can't see an entire FPS battle slowed to bullet time as more EVE players lag the node. I also can't see the battle on the ground moving 10x faster then the EVE players can react.

So to the devs reading this thread: how (or even just will) EVE time dilation and DUST not break the live game to game interaction?
CCP Veritas
C C P
C C P Alliance
#78 - 2011-09-11 10:07:39 UTC
Leon Razor wrote:
So to the devs reading this thread: how (or even just will) EVE time dilation and DUST not break the live game to game interaction?


I can't go into the details, but I have been in contact with the dudes working on the EVE/DUST interaction and we have solutions.

CCP Veritas - Technical Director - EVE Online

Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#79 - 2011-09-11 10:27:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Salpun
Salpun wrote:
CCP Veritas wrote:
Yes, if a large scale fight breaks out on a non-reinforced node, other systems hosted on the same node will slow down as well. While this isn't ideal, it's still considerably better than what happens today.


Have you decided yet if you will be showing which systems are using TiDi on the map like other states of the game or will FC's have to send scouts out to see what the state of other systems are?


Hay Veritas you skipped a questionStraightShockedBig smile

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

Phenethylamine
Nex quod Principatus
#80 - 2011-09-11 11:12:22 UTC
The thing about time dilation is it's just a different version of what you're already experiencing in laggy fights.

It isn't fundamentally changing anything, you're still experiencing basically the same latency in your actions and the same performance, it's just being normalized so that responsiveness is preserved.

Instead of not knowing whether or not the input you issued is going to take effect and having to wait for an unclear amount of time to find out, and this being repeated on every input you're making, you're certain that your inputs are being processed and just have to put up with your actions being slowed down. They're slow, but definitive.

Time dilation is an inherent property of simulation. It will happen to you, you will never avoid it. However, it either happens as a chaotic emergent property that makes issuing inputs a massive confusing hairball, or it happens by design in a manner that preserves more sane control at the human interface end.