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Warfare & Tactics

 
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FW changes id like

First post
Author
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#21 - 2014-01-31 05:41:44 UTC
as an aside, get into the habit of copying your work before you post it

forums ate my post no less than three times just now
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-01-31 05:52:06 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
as an aside, get into the habit of copying your work before you post it

forums ate my post no less than three times just now



Yeah. The eve forums are the sole reason I learned the keyboard shortcuts of Ctrl A, C and V.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!

Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2014-01-31 06:45:39 UTC
Shelom Severasse wrote:
cloaks and warp stabs no longer work while within 30km of a FW complex.
that way the farming ship is easier to catch and will help force a pvp engagement.

why? i am irritated at how easy it is to farm and yet it is near impossible to actually catch farmers. plain and simple.

the lore bit behind this could be that in order to preserve your affiliated factions honor, they do not allow cloaks and warp stabs to work while within 30km of an offensive or defensive plex which is the maximum distance allowed to capture a plex.

or something like that idk

am i any sort of authority in fw? no
do i expect any of these changes? na
but i can dream :D


A warp disruption field doesn't sound like a bad idea at all. And based on the new ESS module, it seems like it's not that hard to implement.

Benny Ohu wrote:

Regarding flagging neutral pilots? **** off and man up. When a pilot enters your plex, you have the same option everyone else in lowsec has:

Shoot first, or don't.

You don't get to be special. Whoever shoots first has a slight advantage, but drops sec. The sec drop for shooting a ship is so small that buying a tag every few weeks isn't going to break the bank. If you don't like dropping sec, don't shoot first or get the hell back to SOE missions, carebear.


The sec system really does need a major overhaul. The implications of negative sec are vague at best and it's definitely too easy to go major negative. I think sec status should have strong implications but should be more difficult to move away from 0 sec status in either direction. Like if having - sec means you're a free target in high/low. That means if you show up as - on someone's over view it means they can attack you. And at the same time if another person with - sec attacks you, they don't get additional sec loss. So losing sec means killing a lot of + sec people. So no longer is pirate hunting an act of piracy. And especially now with those badges. It's a decision to remain -5.0 instead of an accomplishment.
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
United Caldari Space Command.
#24 - 2014-01-31 13:07:01 UTC
chatgris wrote:
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Shelom Severasse wrote:
cloaks and warp stabs no longer work while within 30km of a FW complex.
that way the farming ship is easier to catch and will help force a pvp engagement.

why? i am irritated at how easy it is to farm and yet it is near impossible to actually catch farmers. plain and simple.

the lore bit behind this could be that in order to preserve your affiliated factions honor, they do not allow cloaks and warp stabs to work while within 30km of an offensive or defensive plex which is the maximum distance allowed to capture a plex.

or something like that idk

am i any sort of authority in fw? no
do i expect any of these changes? na
but i can dream :D

so, rewrite the lore so that all of a sudden every race respects bushido/traditional military doctrine, instead of good old irishstreet warfare?

yeah, no.


would rather see anyone who enters a FW plex be flagged for combat on site though, get tired of getting a sec status hit for shooting someone who warps into what is clearly marked as a military engagement zone.


How about you can't hack the control point while cloaked? (or stabbed).

Presto, reason given.


I had suggested this a few months back. Just make it so plexers cant run the button or claim lp if stabbed or running a cloak. Theu can still fit these things to their ship however. Just not claim benefit. If they pay attention to d scan they can of course warp. With depots it becomes somewhat redundant as well. Rollback timers and suspect flags for neutrals or everyone would be welcomed too
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
United Caldari Space Command.
#25 - 2014-01-31 13:10:38 UTC
A warp disruption field would just further increase blueballing tactics and penalize brawlers. As it would make them easier to catch while providing kiters with an extra slot for something such as a secondary web or ewar. It also prevents rapid repositioning of fleets to a degree
Garan Nardieu
Super Serious Fight Club
#26 - 2014-01-31 13:17:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Garan Nardieu
Not empty posting in 1232nd "FW is broken" thread.

I think that FW, in order to be meaningful needs a wider overhaul which won't happen in our (eve)lifetime since CCP stated that in its current itteration FW is fine. Dunno about the rest of you, but I for once got so tired by stabbed plexers and the related grind that I'm barely loggin' in lately Roll.
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Space-Brewery-Association
Local Is Primary
#27 - 2014-01-31 13:58:40 UTC
LOL at the HTFU posts, that are meaningless.

How about you as Neutrals HTFU and take at least a Limited Engagement Timer for entering a FW plex? Wimps. You are the ones that are too scared to join FW so you just roam around the FW zone as a neutral.

The fact that "most fights for neuts in the FW zones are neut vs neut" is a clear indication that there is not enough "draw" to be in FW over being a low sec pirate.

There are plenty of immediate disadvantages that come with signing on the line for a Militia:

1. Cannot dock at stations captured by the enemy (no quick repair, no purchase of ammo quickly from market etc.)

2. You have a permanent War Dec against two militias (actually this can be seen as an advantage as much as it could be seen disadvantage).

3. Half of Hi Sec is NPC hostile.

4. You are restricted to a section of space to do your business (not the whole of New Eden).

5. The FW plex's are currently not difficult enough to stop PvE farmers plaguing the space lanes in what is supposed to be a PvP with PvE undertones split.

6. The FW missions are too easily completed by solo ships that can too easily evade combat (Stealth Bombers should not be able to do lvl 4 FW missions).




So the zone becomes occupied by 3-4 types:


1. People actually interested in a compact zone for quick and varied PvP with a self-supporting PvE system that whilst not the most profitable (it should not be) supports the habit of losing ships.


2. Rich players using low sec alts for quick skirmish PvP coz their dull sec lives are unsatisfying (coz Good fights in Dull sec happen only once a year (B-R <-> Asakai).


3. Farmers abusing the imbalance of the current FW system to tap the isk flood at little or no risk for the reward.


4. Low Sec Pirates looking for targets of opportunity for PvP.



Note: # 1. is the minority


Whilst I have no problem with 1, 2 & 4 being in the zone there should be sufficient balance so that 3. is impractical and 1 is the most attractive for the FW zones. There should certainly not be so many penalties for 1. and yes sec status hits for fighting for your Militia in FW plex's is a penalty that is unecessary.



Recommendations

No Sec status hit for fights in FW plex's (for all).

Limited engagement timers should be placed on all pilots inside a FW plex.



Plex's need an NPC rebalance to make it impossible for someone with WCS to kill the NPC solo.



L4 Missions need effective anti-frigate NPC's.

FW Plex's need an additional size for BC and smaller.



Occurance of FW Plex's by size should be dependant on the constested status level (ie- over 85% plex's spawned are BS > BC > Cruisers > Dessie > Novice .. at <20% plex's spawned are Novice > Dessie > Cruiser > BC > BS)

FW could do with an additional incentive for being in the Militia and fighting for your faction.

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"

Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#28 - 2014-01-31 14:56:25 UTC
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:

Recommendations
No Sec status hit for fights in FW plex's (for all).
Limited engagement timers should be placed on all pilots inside a FW plex.

Plex's need an NPC rebalance to make it impossible for someone with WCS to kill the NPC solo.

L4 Missions need effective anti-frigate NPC's.

FW Plex's need an additional size for BC and smaller.

Occurance of FW Plex's by size should be dependant on the constested status level (ie- over 85% plex's spawned are BS > BC > Cruisers > Dessie > Novice .. at <20% plex's spawned are Novice > Dessie > Cruiser > BC > BS)

FW could do with an additional incentive for being in the Militia and fighting for your faction.


Interesting suggestions.

I would love to be able to engage people in plexes without a security status hit - would definitely free up some players to engage more freely, resulting in more gufites. I'm less enamored of the idea of giving people a limited engagement timer - you don't get one for shooting NPCs anywhere else, and unless they engage a capsuleer in the plex I don't see a reason to change that. It'd continue to have an impact once they leave the plex, and that's not really something that needs to happen.

NPC rebalance in the plexes is tricky. They have to be weak enough, relatively speaking, to allow newer players to be able to have an impact in FW - that's part of the point of FW after all. Making them too tough cuts out a route for new players to get into FW and lowsec PvP, and that's not a good thing. So, yeah - we'll always have a problem with alts being able to do them effectively, whether it takes 1 month or 3 to reach that point.

NPC rebalance also wouldn't impact noskill stabbed alts defensive plexing, after all, which can be a nice source of LP all it's own. Not as lucrative as offensive plexing, but still significant.

Finally, making them tough enough that it's hard to kill with stabs just means you warp in, kill the NPC, drop your mobile depot and refit stabs once it's dead.

Mission tweaks... it's interesting to see how the majority of farmers flock to CalMil and MinMil, due to how easy their L4 missions are. Adding in a few elite, fast webbing frigates in those missions would go a long, long way to balancing them out. GalMil missions are already rough because of all the ECM, and Amarr missions are rough because of the long range guns and target painters. Making Cal / Min missions a bit rougher by adding in fast web frigs would force those farmers to use higher skill requirement boats, which changes the dynamic there a huge amount.

Scaling plex size with contested rate is interesting, but does two things that might not be so good. First, it increases the rewards for deplexing without increasing the difficulty - larger plexes spawning more often means more LP/hour for deplexers. Larger NPCs would effectively mean you have to bring more / larger ships on average to deal with them, making them less accessible for newbros. It might drive more conflict, but that's doubtful IMO - Type 1 FW pilots don't care unless a critical system is threatened, Type 2/3/4 don't care at all regardless.

So - I think that removing sec status hits in plexes would drive more conflict and be a good change. Rebalancing Caldari and Minmatar missions to make them more difficult to run in cheesy bombers would also go a long way to balancing the farming pressure. Everything else... not so sure it's a good idea.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Spaceship Bebop
#29 - 2014-01-31 15:37:45 UTC
Sean Parisi wrote:
A warp disruption field would just further increase blueballing tactics and penalize brawlers. As it would make them easier to catch while providing kiters with an extra slot for something such as a secondary web or ewar. It also prevents rapid repositioning of fleets to a degree


the brawler could easily burn off the button and warp, so no extra slot for the kiter.
X Gallentius
Easy Eight
#30 - 2014-01-31 16:22:12 UTC
Garan Nardieu wrote:
Dunno about the rest of you, but I for once got so tired by stabbed plexers and the related grind that I'm barely loggin' in lately Roll.
You're missing out on tons of kills man. Log back in!


Princess Nexxala
Federal Navy Academy
#31 - 2014-01-31 16:35:04 UTC
Please no flagging for entering a FW plex, god no. Some of us enjoy negative sec hits as often as possible. Us folks who pvp exclusively in plexes don't give a **** about your farmer's sec status.

nom nom

X Gallentius
Easy Eight
#32 - 2014-01-31 16:37:33 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Scylus Black wrote:

I would hate to speculate on this.

All I know... FW is Dead.

It's nothing more than a medium for PVP. Which I happen to love. However the repetition of plexing, flipping, repeat is horrible... They need to make it more enticing and worthwhile. I see many pilots get in the mix and as soon as they get the PVP mechanics down. They leave for other ventures in EVE. Faction Warfare needs an overhaul that retains the challenges of PVP (which I believe FW has the best of) with improved game mechanics to make it worth doing. Time and again.
We've hit a kind of equilibrium right now. The barrier to taking a system where people live is very high (pvp'ers have concentrated themselves to key systems), and the barrier to taking a system where people don't live (where farmers rule) is too low.

At some point another 0.0 alliance will join Caldari - because a) they all do, b) access to Jita, and c) 10.7k players in one militia isn't enough - and upset that balance. Then it'll get more interesting again. Big smile
Scylus Black
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#33 - 2014-02-01 02:38:35 UTC
Garan Nardieu wrote:
Not empty posting in 1232nd "FW is broken" thread.

I think that FW, in order to be meaningful needs a wider overhaul which won't happen in our (eve)lifetime since CCP stated that in its current itteration FW is fine. Dunno about the rest of you, but I for once got so tired by stabbed plexers and the related grind that I'm barely loggin' in lately Roll.


Again. It's dead. When you start losing talented pilots like yourself because the mechanics can't sustain your interest or are so "dumbed" down to only attract those who don't want anything more challenging. It's broken. When CCP refuses to acknowledge a problem. It's dead. I enjoy the PVP aspect of it. Just not the so-called war effort / conquest piece of it. I wish I had a solution or some ideas. Then again I am sure many of you already have thought of it.

Scylus Black - CSM XII Candidate

Former Executor Templis CALSF Alliance

Templis CALSF WHQ // YouTube Channel

Scylus Black
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#34 - 2014-02-01 02:39:38 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Scylus Black wrote:

I would hate to speculate on this.

All I know... FW is Dead.

It's nothing more than a medium for PVP. Which I happen to love. However the repetition of plexing, flipping, repeat is horrible... They need to make it more enticing and worthwhile. I see many pilots get in the mix and as soon as they get the PVP mechanics down. They leave for other ventures in EVE. Faction Warfare needs an overhaul that retains the challenges of PVP (which I believe FW has the best of) with improved game mechanics to make it worth doing. Time and again.
We've hit a kind of equilibrium right now. The barrier to taking a system where people live is very high (pvp'ers have concentrated themselves to key systems), and the barrier to taking a system where people don't live (where farmers rule) is too low.

At some point another 0.0 alliance will join Caldari - because a) they all do, b) access to Jita, and c) 10.7k players in one militia isn't enough - and upset that balance. Then it'll get more interesting again. Big smile


I'll be here with bells on. Still fighting the good fight. Or at least enjoying the PVP.

Scylus Black - CSM XII Candidate

Former Executor Templis CALSF Alliance

Templis CALSF WHQ // YouTube Channel

Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2014-02-01 05:29:03 UTC
Scylus Black wrote:
Garan Nardieu wrote:
Not empty posting in 1232nd "FW is broken" thread.

I think that FW, in order to be meaningful needs a wider overhaul which won't happen in our (eve)lifetime since CCP stated that in its current itteration FW is fine. Dunno about the rest of you, but I for once got so tired by stabbed plexers and the related grind that I'm barely loggin' in lately Roll.


Again. It's dead. When you start losing talented pilots like yourself because the mechanics can't sustain your interest or are so "dumbed" down to only attract those who don't want anything more challenging. It's broken. When CCP refuses to acknowledge a problem. It's dead. I enjoy the PVP aspect of it. Just not the so-called war effort / conquest piece of it. I wish I had a solution or some ideas. Then again I am sure many of you already have thought of it.


It's fine. Play FW for another few years until you realize that there is no such thing as "winning". Then use FW to have fun for what it is: Isk making machine, free war dec, and always something for your corp to do when nothing else is going on.

.

Joe Yankovic
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2014-02-05 15:59:33 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Shelom Severasse wrote:
cloaks and warp stabs no longer work while within 30km of a FW complex.
that way the farming ship is easier to catch and will help force a pvp engagement.

why? i am irritated at how easy it is to farm and yet it is near impossible to actually catch farmers. plain and simple.

the lore bit behind this could be that in order to preserve your affiliated factions honor, they do not allow cloaks and warp stabs to work while within 30km of an offensive or defensive plex which is the maximum distance allowed to capture a plex.

or something like that idk

am i any sort of authority in fw? no
do i expect any of these changes? na
but i can dream :D

so, rewrite the lore so that all of a sudden every race respects bushido/traditional military doctrine, instead of good old irishstreet warfare?

yeah, no.


would rather see anyone who enters a FW plex be flagged for combat on site though, get tired of getting a sec status hit for shooting someone who warps into what is clearly marked as a military engagement zone.

Yeah, ya know, or you could just not complain about it and join faction warfare like the rest of us.
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#37 - 2014-02-05 21:30:19 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
the solution isn't to limit what players can do, this is hamfisted and bad

There are two problems with FW plexing. The first is that 'running and hiding' is actually more effective and profitable than 'staying and fighting' which is what FW is all about. Anyone who claims plexes aren't supposed to facilitate PVP is wrong. If the best option is 'bore the other guy into leaving so I can keep making money' there's something wrong with the system. FW is about PVP and the game should be about having fun. Not staring at a Condor orbiting a button or watching some bear warp between safes.

The second problem is that solo plexing is always more desirable efficiency-wise than plexing with a friend. Anyone looking to hunt plexers for warzone reasons or killmails rather than 'solo goodfites' will bring two or more people. So the plexer will prefer to be solo due to mechanics and hunters will prefer bringing a friend. (Although I aware most of us have been on plexing fleets where we all jump in different plexes in the same system)

The problems are linked. Mechanically-enforced solo plexing means 'running and hiding' is the better choice more often.

So we need two solutions. The first is to make 'staying and fighting' more desirable than 'running and hiding'. I actually have no problem with people who don't want to fight... but they don't deserve more reward than people who'll defend their plex. And assuming fights have a 50/50 chance of you losing, you're worse off fighting for the plex. Besides, who in Gallente militia wants to attack and take a plex that some Caldari guy ran down to one minute? They'll have to win a fight then sit in a plex twice as long for the same reward.

Honestly? As it is, if you're looking to make LP, fighting for plexes is stupid.

So yeah, make 'staying and fighting' more desirable than 'running and hiding', keeping 'running and hiding' an option. More options is always good, as long as the best option facilitates fun gameplay. The player should be able to say to themselves "If I stay, fight and win half the time, I'll be making more LP than running all the time". I think the answer is timer rollbacks. No friendly militia in the plex, the timer runs back down to zero. Maybe if there's an enemy in the plex, the timer runs up twice as fast until it reaches halfway, then runs down at the normal pace. Maybe the timer should reset to zero? Whatever it is, cloaking or running from the complex should hurt your bottom line.

The second solution is to ensure that solo plexing is most desirable, but that plexing in a team is not completely undesirable. Obviously the solo plexer should be getting the better deal because they're less safe. And at the same time, you don't want to make blobbing a way to win the 'plexing for LP' game. I think that having more players inside should run down the timer a little faster with diminishing returns for each additional player. Two pilots could run down the timer at 1.15 timed seconds per real second, the third pilot 1.25.



Regarding flagging neutral pilots? **** off and man up. When a pilot enters your plex, you have the same option everyone else in lowsec has:

Shoot first, or don't.

You don't get to be special. Whoever shoots first has a slight advantage, but drops sec. The sec drop for shooting a ship is so small that buying a tag every few weeks isn't going to break the bank. If you don't like dropping sec, don't shoot first or get the hell back to SOE missions, carebear.


This post is epic in its correctness on all points.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
#38 - 2014-02-05 23:20:48 UTC
Sovereignty Wars Blog

The blog has a link to 21 other blogs - so you can go visit 22 total blogs listed for individuals from FW if you include Shalee's in that number. As of today over two thirds of the blogs haven't been updated in at least 4 months. Some have been dead for a year or two. I mention Sovereignty Wars b/c CCP recently named it as a favored website. FW is not okay.
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