These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1701 - 2014-01-30 22:30:41 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
CCP does good work but, they occasionally screw up even when said problem is brought to their attention. That sounds a lot like the highsec problem we have now.


This is an old argument La Nariz. The whole nerf highsec discussion has been argued over and over again. What is being stated here, from where I am sitting at least, is that even with all the null residents slumming it in "Pubbieland" where the ISK just falls from trees for all of us "themepark risk-averse *******, CCP is missing a huge imbalance, Is that what is being postulated here?

I will do the Level 4 SOE missions this weekend for 4 hours. I will come back with the data and we can talk about it. Not Incarna but the data.


There is a lot of arguments out there about it and that is one, there's a huge Risk : Reward imbalance. Faction warfare shows they can ignore a problem until it blows up in their faces. Make sure your method is sound and that you show us the raw data too.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#1702 - 2014-01-30 22:32:00 UTC
La Nariz wrote:


CCP does good work but, they occasionally screw up even when said problem is brought to their attention. That sounds a lot like the highsec problem we have now.


The only 'problem' high sec has is the incessant buzz of the little bees trying to force them into low/null.

It ain't gonna happens guys. Give it up already.

You've shown recently that you can actually manage to find targets without forcing mission runners into low. So ease up out of high sec's face for Christ's sake.

Mr Epeen Cool
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1703 - 2014-01-30 22:34:38 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
La Nariz wrote:


CCP does good work but, they occasionally screw up even when said problem is brought to their attention. That sounds a lot like the highsec problem we have now.


The only 'problem' high sec has is the incessant buzz of the little bees trying to force them into low/null.

It ain't gonna happens guys. Give it up already.

You've shown recently that you can actually manage to find targets without forcing mission runners into low. So ease up out of high sec's face for Christ's sake.

Mr Epeen Cool


*whoosh*

That was the sound of the point going over your head.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1704 - 2014-01-30 22:35:57 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
La Nariz wrote:


CCP does good work but, they occasionally screw up even when said problem is brought to their attention. That sounds a lot like the highsec problem we have now.


The only 'problem' high sec has is the incessant buzz of the little bees trying to force them into low/null.

It ain't gonna happens guys. Give it up already.

You've shown recently that you can actually manage to find targets without forcing mission runners into low. So ease up out of high sec's face for Christ's sake.

Mr Epeen Cool


Another old, terrible, and defeated argument from a highsec pubbie.

"You just want to push people into null."

No I don't care where people live, I want it to be balanced. People who want to avoid pvp at all costs are not going to leave highsec and I have no intention of trying to get them to leave either.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#1705 - 2014-01-30 22:39:01 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
CCP does good work but, they occasionally screw up even when said problem is brought to their attention. That sounds a lot like the highsec problem we have now.


This is an old argument La Nariz. The whole nerf highsec discussion has been argued over and over again. What is being stated here, from where I am sitting at least, is that even with all the null residents slumming it in "Pubbieland" where the ISK just falls from trees for all of us "themepark risk-averse *******, CCP is missing a huge imbalance, Is that what is being postulated here?

I will do the Level 4 SOE missions this weekend for 4 hours. I will come back with the data and we can talk about it. Not Incarna but the data.


There is a lot of arguments out there about it and that is one, there's a huge Risk : Reward imbalance. Faction warfare shows they can ignore a problem until it blows up in their faces. Make sure your method is sound and that you show us the raw data too.


I take this very seriously. The method will be sound and I am already benchmarking where I am at currently. I will try to have links to my Raven fit as well as to my EveBoard profile so that as little as possible is left to be assumed. Any other suggestions you have are welcomed and appreciated.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#1706 - 2014-01-30 22:46:34 UTC
La Nariz wrote:


No I don't care where people live, I want it to be balanced.


Another old, terrible, and defeated argument from a null bear. Give it up, bro.

Mr Epeen Cool
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1707 - 2014-01-30 22:48:54 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
CCP does good work but, they occasionally screw up even when said problem is brought to their attention. That sounds a lot like the highsec problem we have now.


This is an old argument La Nariz. The whole nerf highsec discussion has been argued over and over again. What is being stated here, from where I am sitting at least, is that even with all the null residents slumming it in "Pubbieland" where the ISK just falls from trees for all of us "themepark risk-averse *******, CCP is missing a huge imbalance, Is that what is being postulated here?

I will do the Level 4 SOE missions this weekend for 4 hours. I will come back with the data and we can talk about it. Not Incarna but the data.


There is a lot of arguments out there about it and that is one, there's a huge Risk : Reward imbalance. Faction warfare shows they can ignore a problem until it blows up in their faces. Make sure your method is sound and that you show us the raw data too.


I take this very seriously. The method will be sound and I am already benchmarking where I am at currently. I will try to have links to my Raven fit as well as to my EveBoard profile so that as little as possible is left to be assumed. Any other suggestions you have are welcomed and appreciated.


Stream it.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#1708 - 2014-01-30 22:55:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Kimmi Chan
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
I take this very seriously. The method will be sound and I am already benchmarking where I am at currently. I will try to have links to my Raven fit as well as to my EveBoard profile so that as little as possible is left to be assumed. Any other suggestions you have are welcomed and appreciated.


Stream it.


Wow man, that is a really great idea though I have no idea how to go about doing that.

Here is the fitting I threw together.

ED: I thought about armor tanking it just to **** with La Nariz. Blink

Here are my trained skills.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1709 - 2014-01-30 22:58:50 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
I take this very seriously. The method will be sound and I am already benchmarking where I am at currently. I will try to have links to my Raven fit as well as to my EveBoard profile so that as little as possible is left to be assumed. Any other suggestions you have are welcomed and appreciated.


Stream it.


Wow man, that is a really great idea though I have no idea how to go about doing that.

Here is the fitting I threw together.

ED: I thought about armor tanking it just to **** with La Nariz. Blink

Here are my trained skills.


I don't stream myself, but I would also suggest that if you go about it, that you find out how to black out your system information and such, otherwise you will have a gank fleet on you in short order.

I forgot to mention that in my last post.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1710 - 2014-01-30 23:01:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
I take this very seriously. The method will be sound and I am already benchmarking where I am at currently. I will try to have links to my Raven fit as well as to my EveBoard profile so that as little as possible is left to be assumed. Any other suggestions you have are welcomed and appreciated.


Stream it.


Wow man, that is a really great idea though I have no idea how to go about doing that.

Here is the fitting I threw together.

ED: I thought about armor tanking it just to **** with La Nariz. Blink

Here are my trained skills.



Quote:
Security Connections / Rank 2 / Level: 0 / SP: 0 of 500


This will be a killer for you LP wise. You will only be getting 2/3 the LP of someone with SC V.

Most serious SOE mission runners have it at IV or V.

Also .. run a 0.5 agent or lower. Far better SP. I suggest Lanngisi, you get all the fun of the Hek crazies in their 'nados to relieve the boredom. Osmon LP sucks.
Josef Djugashvilis
#1711 - 2014-01-30 23:02:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Josef Djugashvilis
La Nariz wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
La Nariz wrote:


CCP does good work but, they occasionally screw up even when said problem is brought to their attention. That sounds a lot like the highsec problem we have now.


The only 'problem' high sec has is the incessant buzz of the little bees trying to force them into low/null.

It ain't gonna happens guys. Give it up already.

You've shown recently that you can actually manage to find targets without forcing mission runners into low. So ease up out of high sec's face for Christ's sake.

Mr Epeen Cool


Another old, terrible, and defeated argument from a highsec pubbie.

"You just want to push people into null."

No I don't care where people live, I want it to be balanced. People who want to avoid pvp at all costs are not going to leave highsec and I have no intention of trying to get them to leave either.


Dear La Nariz, every time you use the word, 'pubbie' it makes me wonder if you are actually old enough (13) to play Eve Online.

Whinge all you want about how unfair CCP is to you, but do it without using your kiddie school-yard slang, please.

I know that a few nul-sec folk are unhappy about the (insert fantasy figure here) isk folk in hi-sec earn, buy many of us play for fun not isk/hour and some of us use the isk we make to lose ships in lo and null-sec.

If I wanted to spend my time with a self selected 'elite' who think that they alone play the real Eve, then I would make a permanent move to null.

I don't think so Smile

This is not a signature.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#1712 - 2014-01-30 23:05:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Kimmi Chan
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Quote:
Security Connections / Rank 2 / Level: 0 / SP: 0 of 500


This will be a killer for you LP wise. You will only be getting 2/3 the LP of someone with SC V.

Most serious SOE mission runners have it at IV or V.

Also .. run a 0.5 agent or lower. Far better SP. I suggest Lanngisi, you get all the fun of the Hek crazies in their 'nados to relieve the boredom. Osmon LP sucks.


I am tracking LP gained separately from ISK. We can postulate that deficiency by adding 40-50% to total LP gained to find the amount a pilot with SC IV or V would make in the same span of time.

ED: As far as Osmon sucking - we can certainly look at the difference between the 2. However, I am trying to remove as many "conditions" as is possible. Just a 45m SP pilot running L4 missions, blitzing the ones that can be and skipping the ones that suck, and then presenting the data here so people can draw what conclusions they may.

At this point, I want to leave the politicking out of it. Jenn said I should test. I want to test it. If the conclusion drawn from that data shows that I can make more than 90m ISK/hr (including LP and assuming Baltec1's figure for the same amount/hr doing NullSec Anoms) then yes, we have a problem. If that 90m/hr is done is Osmon vs. Lanngisi then it just shows the same problem to a greater extent.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#1713 - 2014-01-30 23:21:10 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Quote:
Security Connections / Rank 2 / Level: 0 / SP: 0 of 500


This will be a killer for you LP wise. You will only be getting 2/3 the LP of someone with SC V.

Most serious SOE mission runners have it at IV or V.

Also .. run a 0.5 agent or lower. Far better SP. I suggest Lanngisi, you get all the fun of the Hek crazies in their 'nados to relieve the boredom. Osmon LP sucks.


I am tracking LP gained separately from ISK. We can postulate that deficiency by adding 40-50% to total LP gained to find the amount a pilot with SC IV or V would make in the same span of time.

ED: As far as Osmon sucking - we can certainly look at the difference between the 2. However, I am trying to remove as many "conditions" as is possible. Just a 45m SP pilot running L4 missions, blitzing the ones that can be and skipping the ones that suck, and then presenting the data here so people can draw what conclusions they may.

At this point, I want to leave the politicking out of it. Jenn said I should test. I want to test it. If the conclusion drawn from that data shows that I can make more than 90m ISK/hr (including LP and assuming Baltec1's figure for the same amount/hr doing NullSec Anoms) then yes, we have a problem. If that 90m/hr is done is Osmon vs. Lanngisi then it just shows the same problem to a greater extent.


Virtually all of the missions I posted before, have CAPPED LP - mine was taken from an 0.7 where my skills cap at 6788 LP. The cap is better in a 0.5. Just be wary that merely multiplying skills might not give you a correct figure.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#1714 - 2014-01-30 23:26:57 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
Batelle wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:

Of course you have those shiny ships because you've spent years raking in the isk and building up skill points. There is downtime in moving LP goods to market and ignoring that is being dishonest. You seem to think you're allowed to take the highsec exception as the rule but you get mad when people do the same when referring to nullsec. Facts are in optimal situations you can make far more in null or WH then highsec.


LP conversion research can be done with software tools and a sanity check. Moving stuff around takes time, but isn't a big deal if you only cash out LP once every 1-2 months or something. Many people go longer. You cannot seriously be comparing the difficulty of converting LP to the relative downsides of nullsec.
If you cash out once a month or two you can easily have +5b in LP items sitting in your cargohold which does kind of make it a bit of a big deal since that's most of your effective income. I'm not comparing just stating that you need to factor in the time you spend looking for/using those tools, confirming data, transportation, time spent listing/dealing etc into your isk per hour estimates. Clearly there's similar considerations that need to be taken with various nullsec and WH activities too.



In order to rat, I have to import a pos, a hyperion, a dominix, an ishtar, modules, structures fuel, drones, ammo. If I am not using a ratter, I have to put it away in a different system, which includes refitting travel.

In order to rat, I needed an ihub (freighter run into deep null), 4 detection arrays, and in order make ratting useful, 4 entrapment arrays. Thats 3 jumpfreighter runs, and I also had to spend numerous hours belt ratting ~5m/hr to pop the system to level 1 military, and its not until level 4 military that I get hubs.

ie you cannot honestly compare scope of effort required to prepare a mission hub, compared with the scope of effort to prepare a ratting system.

With respect to loot from ded plexes, I have all the same issues, except for there being bubbles on the route to jita, and by being in a "null" alliance, I am perma decced by marmite and other regular highsec commerce raiders.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1715 - 2014-01-30 23:31:28 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Bear in mind that you may have to practice mission blitzes to get them right (see my damsel fail as an example), so you may fail a lot in your first 4 hours.

Cap booster, armor Sentry+5 gun Dominix times, @ 1000 lp conversion (for FIO) - all times are undock to dock (my agent usually gives me x mission in y place that doesn't vary very often). Further improvements available from pirate ships.

these will be over 100m/hr for sisters.

Matts for War - (2 jumps) - buy kernite in station, receive implant - rate 300m/hr
Ammar Smash supplier - 7 minutes - kill tower - effective rate 99.5m/hr
Ammar Smash supplier - 47 minutes - clear all and loot - used when out of rejects - effective rate 74m/hr
Dread pirate scarlet - 25 minutes (4 jumps), clear to scarlet and scarlet pocket, loot and leave. effective rate 93m/hr
Serp assault - 9 minutes - blitz gates are open - effective rate 79.2m/hr
Serp blockade - 23 mins - triple sebo domi full clear - effective rate 78m/hr
Serp/gurista wc - 19 mins with card - experimental kronos run - effective rate 61m/hr
Serp/gurista wc - 25 mins dominix clear first pocket, ignore guristas - effective rate 57m/hr
Ammar Surprise Surprise - 22 - clear and loot for tags - 59m effective
merc stop thief - 5 mins - prestashed reports, kill 2 bs - 56.9m effective
angel pirate invasion - 17 mins - full clear triple Omni - 57.3m effective
serp extrav - 26 mins - full clear - 52.9m
attack of the drones - 14 mins full clear (believed blitzable) - 61m/hr effective
damsel - 16 + 12 loot - badly failed kronos test run shot wrong tower + loot - 68m/effective (potential there!)

missions last recorded in the 40m - 50m range for FIO - Will probably be 80m/hrs for sisters, may reject some if on a good run.

zor right hand - 6mins - kill zor group and leave
angel unauthorized - run to ripped structure kill group and leave - note run made with navy mega
blood cargo delivery - frigate blitz - can probably stash stuff for this
silence informant - 22 mins (4 jumps) - not blitzable
angel smuggler intercept - 22 mins - fit failure (no prop mod - possibly better)
serp score - 18 mins - domi was 5 minutes faster than prebastion kronos maybe diff now
mordus headhunters - 28 mins (maybe potential in this one - it really wants the navy domi)
drones infiltrated - 13 mins
angel extrav - 39 mins, doesn't agree with the domi or I was interrupted, can't remember (was a zerker/bouncer loadout).


rejects

serp duo of death
serp spies
sansha rogue slave


Other missions likely to be ok, but not recorded

buzzkill - method - move to 60km, snipe.

Some one else can fill in other races missions, but the sisters agent I used was fairly "gallente" in mix.

Interesting - so why are you paying Goons 10 bill per month for one null system if you can make so much for free in High?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1716 - 2014-01-30 23:51:51 UTC
From page 72:

Pinky Hops wrote:
How about building Titans.

What, you can't do that? Too spacepoor? Too low on the food chain? Not enough skillpoints?

Too bad.


I bet people building Titans feel pretty *smug* right now.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1717 - 2014-01-30 23:53:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Quote:
Security Connections / Rank 2 / Level: 0 / SP: 0 of 500


This will be a killer for you LP wise. You will only be getting 2/3 the LP of someone with SC V.

Most serious SOE mission runners have it at IV or V.

Also .. run a 0.5 agent or lower. Far better SP. I suggest Lanngisi, you get all the fun of the Hek crazies in their 'nados to relieve the boredom. Osmon LP sucks.


I am tracking LP gained separately from ISK. We can postulate that deficiency by adding 40-50% to total LP gained to find the amount a pilot with SC IV or V would make in the same span of time.

ED: As far as Osmon sucking - we can certainly look at the difference between the 2. However, I am trying to remove as many "conditions" as is possible. Just a 45m SP pilot running L4 missions, blitzing the ones that can be and skipping the ones that suck, and then presenting the data here so people can draw what conclusions they may.

At this point, I want to leave the politicking out of it. Jenn said I should test. I want to test it. If the conclusion drawn from that data shows that I can make more than 90m ISK/hr (including LP and assuming Baltec1's figure for the same amount/hr doing NullSec Anoms) then yes, we have a problem. If that 90m/hr is done is Osmon vs. Lanngisi then it just shows the same problem to a greater extent.



My hunch is 90m ISK/hr would be the max limit only occurring when you hit a series of blitzable high LP missions. Over a sustained period 50 mill/hour would be easily achieved though.


I think the LP/Sec-Status formula reduces to something like: 9.4 - 5.4*Sec_Status (no idea how that is useful)

If its any help my mission toon was making 9200 or so LP per mission in Lanngisi.
Evilishah
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#1718 - 2014-01-30 23:55:25 UTC
Deleted
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#1719 - 2014-01-31 00:02:26 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Interesting - so why are you paying Goons 10 bill per month for one null system if you can make so much for free in High?


Because I won at missions already.

cursory exanimation of the public CFC rental list will show that most systems don't cost 10b/mo. and many of them are within the reach of the individual who already made some isk running missions.

The only remotely interesting thing to me missionswise now would be to try a few bastion missions or do L5 again. Where as there is still much I can Weeesearch here, and I'm still waiting on skills to finish on 2 characters.

In any case, its faintly amusing to me to reserve an entire null system for me only (something that obviously only scales to 2700 people and therefore is irrelevant in a general nullsec linemember income comparison, given there is theoretically 70,000 of them total).
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#1720 - 2014-01-31 00:04:23 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:



My hunch is 90m ISK/hr would be the max limit only occurring when you hit a series of blitzable high LP missions. Over a sustained period 50 mill/hour would be easily achieved though.


I think the LP/Sec-Status formula reduces to something like: 9.4 - 5.4*Sec_Status (no idea how that is useful)




Your hunch is bizzare when I've already posted in this thread the missions, the methods and the times required to achieve those exact figures at 1000 conversion for a crappy navy-clone corp with a T1 battleship.