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[CSM] December Summit - Microtransactions

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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#21 - 2011-11-24 12:30:30 UTC
Smiling Menace wrote:
MT's for vanity items only.

If someone has too much cash and wants to buy monocles then that is between them and their bank manager.


So let them buy PLEX and sell for ISK and use that ISK to buy expensive things in game that other players discover, harvest, manufacture and market.

Don't short-circuit the player economy in this game by allowing Cash Store NeX microtransactions to strip away content opportunity from Eve.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
#22 - 2011-11-24 14:11:55 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
No cash store MT whatsoever for stuff in the eve online client as long as a subscription is charged.

Preferably remove NeX store and ceremonially throw the people who envisaged and championed it into the Harbour.

All ship customization, logos, exotic clothing and such should be introduced into the game by traditional means allowing players to research, develop, earn loyalty points from factions etc, and sell this stuff to other players on the market. Its an absolute no-brainer that npc corporate and faction ship skins should come from those factional loyalty stores.

Furthermore,

I'd like you to strongly remind CCP that they already got a form of MT additional income from the introduction of PLEX (which allows cash rich time poor players to spend rl currency on game advantage) and trying to impact the sandbox further is just being greedy.

Of course, you could argue that even additional accounts (which many many of us have) are another form of MT that makes gameplay easier (cyno alts anyone?)

Conclusion being.

Screw NeX!

Get that content flowing back into the sandbox by the traditional means and do not be tempted to nickel and dime subscription paying customers again in the future. The solution for CCP to increase its cash flow is to:

1. Improve the game so more people subscribe (and tell their friends to come subscribe too!)
2. Introduce expensive kit that people make ingame and sell for big isk (that some will trade plex/isk for)
3. Stop flushing money down the drain on half-assed projects that nobody really cares about.

It really isn't rocket science.


This.

MT has been debated to death, close the book on it once and for all.

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#23 - 2011-11-24 16:36:20 UTC
Yeep wrote:
Its always puzzled me why CCP chose to sell vanity items directly in the NEX store. It would have been much more fitting to the EvE universe to sell AUR only materials and blueprints (that could then be traded for ISK) which could be used by researchers and manufacturers.

So instead of buying a dress you can buy a blueprint for the dress, research it and offer to produce for people. Or buy the materials yourself and sell the dresses on the market.
Instead of buying a custom ship logo you buy a blueprint and some paint and produce a ship logo kit that other people can apply.
Price it so that a 1 run BPC and the materials is the same price as the current vanity item and optionally sell a BPO for way more.

This way you can maintain the same microtransaction structure without completely removing the economic and industrial mechanics that EvE does so well.



OMG I just agreed with someone from Goonswarm.

So, where are those riders in the sky?


That said, if CCP went about it the right way, MT *could* heavy emphasis* be a good thing, but they are not.

The thing they really NEED to do is get the players involved in the CREATION of vanity items.
Bomberlocks
Bombercorp
#24 - 2011-11-25 01:14:02 UTC
Trebor, make it clear to them that they will be risking the future of their company if they go beyond vanity items and it would be by far the best of they left that topic alone till eve has started growing again.
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#25 - 2011-11-25 05:10:25 UTC
Wait. Where the **** did this word "Convenience" come from, and when?

We've gone from "vanity" related microtransactions, to "convenience microtransactions"?

Before this topic gets too far, CCP had damn well better step up and tell the players outright what they consider "convenience".

Faction ammo is "convenient" because it hits harder.

Faction modules are "convenient" because they increase damage/defense, etc.

Microtransactions are pretty damned basic for Eve: Avatar accessories only

Profit favors the prepared
Tahna Rouspel
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2011-11-25 05:21:09 UTC
I don't mind the Microtransactions, as long as it remains vanity items.

I would like to see ship custom paints - these would be very popular.
It would be good to see some of the old trinkets that appeared on the old character customization screen. There were hair trinkets, wires, etc... it added a lot of character to the avatar.
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#27 - 2011-11-25 11:42:04 UTC
Tahna Rouspel wrote:
I don't mind the Microtransactions, as long as it remains vanity items.

I would like to see ship custom paints - these would be very popular.
It would be good to see some of the old trinkets that appeared on the old character customization screen. There were hair trinkets, wires, etc... it added a lot of character to the avatar.



I too would like to see ship paint jobs and custom skins but I want them from exploration, from player led industry, from the faction loyalty point stores (from mission runners) and sold on the market for isk so that players can involve themselves in another service industry in the Eve online sandbox.

I do not see ANY valid reason for leeching gameplay content out to MT/NeX cash shop.

If you can see one then by all means make the argument.

But remember CCP already have a form of MT income stream through PLEX for ISK conversion and they already allow players to pay extra money for "convenience" by opening new accounts for multi boxing of everything from trade to logistics to cyno alts.

These terms "vanity/convenience" are a smokescreen for removing content from the sandbox and taking things away from player industry in Eve Online.

I want customization of spaceships, avatars, anything else you can think of. I don't want to spoil the player-led purety of the economic sandbox to get it.

And neither should you.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Tahna Rouspel
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2011-11-25 12:52:28 UTC
Jade,

I understand your argument and I agree with it, but the argument on CCP's side is that they need to monetize the game more. I'm not sure why or how valid this is, but that's what motivated the NEX store.

If the NEX store didn't exist, the clothes would have been added to the normal customization screen and players could have used them without charges. Custom ship paints are in between. I'm not sure where that would fit in the game.

The in game industry has always been about manufacturing ships and modules of all sort. Cosmetic items -could- be a part of industry, but it's never something I expected.

As long as CCP doesn't make utility for the NEX store or focus entirely on the NEX store and forgo the game industry, then I'm fine with it.
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#29 - 2011-11-25 14:01:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Constantine
Tahna Rouspel wrote:
Jade,

I understand your argument and I agree with it, but the argument on CCP's side is that they need to monetize the game more. I'm not sure why or how valid this is, but that's what motivated the NEX store.


Which was a terrible mistake that led to the fiascos of this summer and contributed to the unsub crisis. The message the player base gave to CCP was that NeX (monetization) was a step we didn't want. And it doesn't answer the question I asked - why is it needed when PLEX for ISK conversion already fulfills the need for extra income from players seeking convenience for rl cash.

Quote:
If the NEX store didn't exist, the clothes would have been added to the normal customization screen and players could have used them without charges. Custom ship paints are in between. I'm not sure where that would fit in the game. The in game industry has always been about manufacturing ships and modules of all sort. Cosmetic items -could- be a part of industry, but it's never something I expected.


With respect it is something you should have expected because Eve online is a Premium cost subscription game. The "hybrid" model of subs + microtransactions for "vanity/convenience" is a bogus nickel and diming insult to the intelligence of Eve gamers.

Quote:
As long as CCP doesn't make utility for the NEX store or focus entirely on the NEX store and forgo the game industry, then I'm fine with it.


As long as NeX exists it represents a place where non integrated content can be injected into the game at cost to the integrity of the player-led economic sandbox.

It needs to go.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#30 - 2011-11-25 14:03:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
Jade Constantine wrote:
Tahna Rouspel wrote:
I don't mind the Microtransactions, as long as it remains vanity items.

I would like to see ship custom paints - these would be very popular.
It would be good to see some of the old trinkets that appeared on the old character customization screen. There were hair trinkets, wires, etc... it added a lot of character to the avatar.



I too would like to see ship paint jobs and custom skins but I want them from exploration, from player led industry, from the faction loyalty point stores (from mission runners) and sold on the market for isk so that players can involve themselves in another service industry in the Eve online sandbox.

I do not see ANY valid reason for leeching gameplay content out to MT/NeX cash shop.


The "original plan" involved manufacturing clothes through some WiS process, and have only blueprints available for AUR. I agree that the current iteration is quite lacking in content.

I still stand by my opinion that the NEX store is not a MT shop. It's merely transfering one in-game item (PLEX) into an in-game currency (AUR) into more in-game items (accessories). The only MT in EVE is being able to buy a PLEX - which is freely available on the market. Therefore all the in-game content is available to you without having to pay anything more than the subscription fee. As long as it stays this way, I am fine with it.
Pavel Bidermann
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2011-11-25 14:56:37 UTC
I think the problem is that even though there are ways it could be done, CCP doesn't seem to know how to display restaint in it's exicution. To be fair, this isn't just CCP. Other games have shown poor judgement when it comes to not selling power and CCP should not be thought of as different. The fact that this is still up for discussion in EVE is a sign that they still don't understand player feedback or just how bad an idea this was. I don't see how it could be any clearer. For that reason CCP should just avoid another disaster and skip it.

They have bigger problems with game-killing supercaps and crappy Alliance/Sov mechanics. Those 2 things will kill this game if not addressed in a rdical fashion.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2011-11-25 15:26:02 UTC
Remove the NeX entirely, drop microstransactions entirely according to the will of the community and make all these items part of the player-produced market like any other item.

Make all clothing and hairstyles available to all races.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#33 - 2011-11-25 15:32:07 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Remove the NeX entirely, drop microstransactions entirely according to the will of the community and make all these items part of the player-produced market like any other item.

Make all clothing and hairstyles available to all races.


Yeah Trebor, please don't forget to put that Crowdsourcing thread result in front of the relevant people.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#34 - 2011-11-25 17:29:12 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Please discuss issues related to this session in this thread. We look forward to your comments and suggestions.

Editor's note: CCP's title for this topic was "Convenience Microtransactions", but we have not heard of any specific plans for such microtransactions, and the CSM is generally opposed to the idea.


Even if then only Vanity items that people can sell on market, but the PLEX->AUR exchange; i wonder how much it affects PLLEX prices.

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude
Adhar Khorin
Projected Effects Industries
#35 - 2011-11-25 18:59:02 UTC
Vanity items only, preferably by integrating vanity item production into existing market structures.

Plex->Aur->vanity bpo->market. Cash comes into ccp, products enter market for capsuleers, market competition ensues. That model provides a single entry point for vanity enabling items, but allows the entire player base to benefit.
David Magnus
#36 - 2011-11-25 19:00:34 UTC
I liked the idea of a PLEX for a remap.

A lot of people freaked out about it, but ALL the people that did the math and worked it out showed it didn't really make a huge difference. Besides, you still had to sit through the skill training either way, you just don't screw yourself for a year if you make a mistake. Even if it was limited to one per month or something like that.

I think it's important that nothing that you can get in MT for "convenience" takes the place of something a player could do for you. So no shipping things anywhere you want by interbus for an MT price or something like that.

However, MT for a race/gender/facial structure change should be ok as well - as long as the name/corp history doesn't change.

http://soundcloud.com/davidkmagnus/fight-us-maybe

http://soundcloud.com/davidkmagnus/winterupdate

http://soundcloud.com/davidkmagnus/supercaps

http://soundcloud.com/davidkmagnus/pandemiclegion
Hiram Alexander
State Reprisal
#37 - 2011-11-25 19:10:35 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Please discuss issues related to this session in this thread. We look forward to your comments and suggestions.

Editor's note: CCP's title for this topic was "Convenience Microtransactions", but we have not heard of any specific plans for such microtransactions, and the CSM is generally opposed to the idea.

Whose decision was it, to rename this thread, incidentally...?

Just because you 'haven't heard anything' about it, doesn't mean you should try to pre-emptively run a damage control action. They've kept you in the dark before on certain issues, and might be doing the same again... :tinfoil:

So changing the name of a topic that CCP doubtless chose for good reason, could come across as a little disingenuous..

I'd personally like you to obtain proper clarification from CCP, insofar as you're able, as to whether their chosen title was actually appropriate.
Khudin Hadashur
Doomheim
#38 - 2011-11-25 20:12:48 UTC
Since the topic of microtransactions is again on the agenda it is apparently again necessary to trumpet some opinions to CCP.


I would think most if not all CSM members would oppose microtransactions for non-vanity items. In fact, most EVE players probably oppose microtransactions for non-vanity items. A significant chunk even oppose microtransactions in any way, shape or form.

I for one do not mind the concept of MT for vanity. But this should be limited to vanity. Ship logos would fit that category as well and will be possible soon due to technical changes already (being) rolled out.

MT for the proverbial gold ammo or MT for convenience I can not support.


If this session is about discussing possible products that could be sold within the concept of vanity-only, by all means go nuts but keep in mind the current price levels in the NEX store are rather ridiculous, especially considering the lack of diversity it offers thusfar.
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2011-11-25 22:12:41 UTC
Hiram Alexander wrote:
Whose decision was it, to rename this thread, incidentally...?


CCP provided the initial name, and then realized that it might be misconstrued, and asked me to change the post.

Don't worry, if they suggest something we think is dumb, we'll tell them "that's dumb, and here's why"

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery
Lykouleon
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#40 - 2011-11-25 23:54:39 UTC
I'm all for microtransactions in the form of vanity items. But never for anything that provides "convenience" or a leg-up in any form over any other player.

Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword