These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

OMNIDIRECTIONAL Tracking Link Changes

Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#41 - 2014-01-29 00:15:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
Constantin Catweazle wrote:
The nerf makes it almost impossible to hit smaller targets with slightest traversal using Gardes. If they are closer than say 50km, you won't hit them because of tracking. If targets are any further away, the are absurdly deep into falloff and apply hardly any damage. Cruiser size targets have a small window where Gardes can apply half of their usual damage.

As its impossible to dictate range using sentry and droneboats with competitive damage output are poor when it comes to tanking: the are useless now.


Don't underestimate falloff and tracking scripts.

Damage application against a MWD spiraling Crow target in lowsec.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/Dante80/bellycancer/29-Jan-1402-09-54_zpsbb673d33.jpg

Many will not notice it, but Rubicon 1.1 indirectly fixed Curators for PvP. C:

PvE. Damage application against elite cruiser (Dire Pithum Eraser).
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/Dante80/bellycancer/1_zps8ceaaaac.jpg

Garde - Bouncer still seems optimal.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#42 - 2014-01-29 00:19:10 UTC
Yea I just got into my Dominix... The range looks ugly. No more 30% bonus to tracking and range... You can't even get that bonus just to range with zero tracking bonus.


On the bright side this should cause the price of the Dominix and other sentry drone ships to fall. Maybe buy low now, wait for CCP to realize and fix what they've done then sell high Big smile
Constantin Catweazle
Schneewiesel
#43 - 2014-01-29 07:36:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Constantin Catweazle
Bertrand Butler wrote:


Don't underestimate falloff and tracking scripts.

Damage application against a MWD spiraling Crow target in lowsec.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/Dante80/bellycancer/29-Jan-1402-09-54_zpsbb673d33.jpg

Many will not notice it, but Rubicon 1.1 indirectly fixed Curators for PvP. C:

PvE. Damage application against elite cruiser (Dire Pithum Eraser).
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/Dante80/bellycancer/1_zps8ceaaaac.jpg

Garde - Bouncer still seems optimal.



For some reason your plots look completely different from mine. Been using a rattle and eft, but that shouldn't be an issue. I'll bring pictures later this day. Would be cool if we could continue discussion from there.

Edit: well, it seems like the difference it's related to the rattlesnake not giving any bonus to tracking and optimal. So I need to correct my statement: rattle isn't a viable sentry boat anymore...
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#44 - 2014-01-29 08:21:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
IIshira wrote:
Yea I just got into my Dominix... The range looks ugly. No more 30% bonus to tracking and range... You can't even get that bonus just to range with zero tracking bonus.


On the bright side this should cause the price of the Dominix and other sentry drone ships to fall. Maybe buy low now, wait for CCP to realize and fix what they've done then sell high Big smile


it doesn't make a lot of difference. Drone assist has to go away, and drone assist doctrines are still around until they fix drone assist, so nullsec will be exploding and reimbursing dominixes until they do.


The last fit on my old missioning dominix was.

5x 350mm railgun II (fed navy antimatter charge L)
1x black eagle drone link augmenter (hey I farmed it, I fit it).

1x medium electrochemical cap booster (cap 800)
1x fed navy omni (now I'd script it)
1x experimental 100mn MWD
1x tracking computer II (scripts)
1x f-90 sebo (scripts)

3x drone damage amp II
1x fed navy mag stab
1x core b-type large armor repairer
1x core b-type kinetic armor hardener
1x core b-type thermic armor hardener

1x large drone control range rig
2x large aux nanos

5x warden II
5x garde II

That would actually work -even- better at the preferred fighting range of 30km, because when the NPCs start at 30km (like they do all the time in missions), the optimal won't matter and it will be scripted for tracking. Note the b-type is on there, because it was last flown before they buffed all reppers. That is not necessary anymore, just as the Large Microjump drive has never been necessary.
Layla Firoue
Doomheim
#45 - 2014-01-29 09:01:09 UTC
Apologies to everyone, undocking, loading script activating link does not update the drone attributes of the drones in your drone bay. I thought it would work as usual and that CCP would not make such a huge mistake but apparently they did.

It used to be a misconception and people checked drone stats after they had launched it with the old links it would work exactly as described before.

This is a major derp on CCPs part and I am mind boggled how something like this made it through testing.
Either the links do not work at all or just the info is bugged either way this is a HUGE failure!!!
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#46 - 2014-01-29 14:27:47 UTC
I too tested the tracking links and it doesn't show any change to optimal or falloff when they're activated... Way to go CCP!
Cypher Decypher
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#47 - 2014-01-29 15:37:49 UTC
Layla Firoue wrote:
Apologies to everyone, undocking, loading script activating link does not update the drone attributes of the drones in your drone bay. I thought it would work as usual and that CCP would not make such a huge mistake but apparently they did.

It used to be a misconception and people checked drone stats after they had launched it with the old links it would work exactly as described before.

This is a major derp on CCPs part and I am mind boggled how something like this made it through testing.
Either the links do not work at all or just the info is bugged either way this is a HUGE failure!!!



Added to that, the new active ODL's landed on SISI only twelve days before going live. And the threadnaught (HERE) hasn't had a *single* Dev comment posted to it despite some genuinely good points being raised.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#48 - 2014-01-29 15:43:55 UTC
Batelle wrote:
I'm very sorry to say this to a new player, but the the sad fact is that there is no in-game system that will properly tell you your final, calculated, actual, honest-to-goodnes for-real drone stats. Fitting window, show info, all that stuff will be inaccurate.

Get a third party fitting tool such as EFT.


If your ship is in space, and you show info on a not-deployed drone in your drone bay, I thought the game showed you correct stats for that drone.

Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#49 - 2014-01-29 15:47:17 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Batelle wrote:
I'm very sorry to say this to a new player, but the the sad fact is that there is no in-game system that will properly tell you your final, calculated, actual, honest-to-goodnes for-real drone stats. Fitting window, show info, all that stuff will be inaccurate.

Get a third party fitting tool such as EFT.


If your ship is in space, and you show info on a not-deployed drone in your drone bay, I thought the game showed you correct stats for that drone.



That may have worked intermittently over the last few years. I wouldn't know because I gave up on checking drone stats long before that. But judging by the threads its broken again. Seems like a good enough reason to get EFT.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Marr Kett
Lonewolf Logistics
#50 - 2014-01-29 15:54:40 UTC
snake03 wrote:
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Batelle wrote:

Oh yeah. My bad. I've been doing calculations by hand.


It amazes me how many people cannot do those calcs on a napkin anymore. Sad



/when-I-was-young



You use a napkin for your calculations???? I carve mine in slate.


Honestly, does no one use good ol' fashioned coal on a shovel anymore..Lincoln finds this to be a disturbance in the Force.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#51 - 2014-01-29 18:03:08 UTC
I run RS with 2 Fed Omni's and 1 TP.


Drones for L4's Before:

T2 Curator's for Em/therm

T2 Garde's for Kin/therm

T2 Beserkers for Exp

T2 Hornets for up close frigs.



Drones for L4's After:

T2 Curator's for Em/therm

T2 Garde's for Kin/therm

T2 Beserkers for Exp

T2 Hornets for up close frigs.

Only thing different is now I have to manage more aspects of the ship.
Still gets the job done although it does still feel like a nerf.
The RS had been getting buffs for 3 years straight. No more god mode, Damn it.
Cypher Decypher
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#52 - 2014-01-29 19:51:09 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:


..
On a fully skilled pilot for a range bonused boat. Much like scorch on a Paladin, if you use that as your only frame of reference you get a distorted view of how it performs in general.


Not really. I've dual-box(ed) a pair of triple-ODL'd rr Domis ever since the new hull bonuses came into play. It's a very common setup, used extensively in PvE in null as well as Empire. Granted, both pilots have Gal BS 5 but even at 4 it's a powerful and easily skilled-for platform. So the example I've cited isn't a distortion.

In fact, as many people have pointed out, the nerf hits everything *but* the Ishtar and Domi even harder.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#53 - 2014-01-29 20:22:15 UTC

Yes, omnidirectional tracking links were nerfed.

So what.... they were do for a nerf!

LvL 5 Domi bonus:
+50% damage, + 37.5 Tracking.

Very few other platforms got a damage bonus and a tracking bonus:
LvL 5 Mega / Mega Navy Issue:
+25% R.o.F, +37.5 Tracking is about the closest example.

Then look at the old weapon upgrade bonuses:
+10.5% R.o.F and 10% damage for turret ships,
+23% straight damage bonus for drone DDA's.

+25% Optimal, +25% Tracking for Omni's
+ 7.5% Optimal & 15% falloff and +15% Tracking.

Drone upgrades were simply overpowered compared to other weapon system upgrades, and this balance nerfed them back into place.

So, if you are using a Rattlesnake that doesn't get a tracking bonus, you are in the same boat as using a Rail-fit Hyperion, that doesn't get a tracking bonus. Granted, you can fit Javelin to up your tracking (or take standard pills), but you can swap drones to suite the target. And by the way, the base tracking and range for sentry drones is still better than the base tracking and range of railguns.

People just need to learn to utilize them properly.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#54 - 2014-01-29 20:26:03 UTC
Cypher Decypher wrote:

In fact, as many people have pointed out, the nerf hits everything *but* the Ishtar and Domi even harder.


IMO the reason for this is that a single slot could make up 80% of the missed bonus (1.3x multiplier from faction omni compared to 1.375x from ship bonus). Its stacking penalized, but it was one way to gain ground.

Now that faction omnis in particular have been murdered, no amount of omni stacking will make up the difference.

I fully expect the 7.5% bonus to be further reduced to 5% on both hulls. Hopefully in conjunction with a buff to sentries base stats or complete overhaul.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#55 - 2014-01-29 21:10:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Drone upgrades were simply overpowered compared to other weapon system upgrades, and this balance nerfed them back into place.


Agreed, however this wasnt offset by addressing, or even acknowledging the drawbacks of the platform.


You'll notice that even though it offers better EFT-DPS, *noone* ran seriously with sentries and unbonused tracking - because they couldn't hit the floor if they fell on it (pretty much).

The only exception I can think of being the TFI as it could eek an omni and DLA on. The point being 'range' scripted sentries cant track for jack schitt, so you're better off not bothering.
Ezra Blade Blade
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2014-01-29 21:32:16 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
[quote=Gizznitt Malikite]

The only exception I can think of being the TFI as it could eek an omni and DLA on. The point being 'range' scripted sentries cant track for jack schitt, so you're better off not bothering.


This

This issue is also being hotly debated on other threads. Our frustration is warranted.
Shoto Foom
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#57 - 2014-01-29 21:38:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Shoto Foom
edit

Upon reflection Omnis were way OP and I'm just bitter that my precious Ishtar got nerfed

i was looking for another cruiser hull that could do what it does and there are none...
even after the nerf

it really needed a Nerf bad ...
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2014-01-30 03:06:50 UTC
Cypher Decypher wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:


..
On a fully skilled pilot for a range bonused boat. Much like scorch on a Paladin, if you use that as your only frame of reference you get a distorted view of how it performs in general.


Not really. I've dual-box(ed) a pair of triple-ODL'd rr Domis ever since the new hull bonuses came into play. It's a very common setup, used extensively in PvE in null as well as Empire. Granted, both pilots have Gal BS 5 but even at 4 it's a powerful and easily skilled-for platform. So the example I've cited isn't a distortion.

In fact, as many people have pointed out, the nerf hits everything *but* the Ishtar and Domi even harder.

Yeah, that's actually the point. To be honest since the domi was redone I've not really seen any benefit to having a rattlesnake. The bonus makes that much of a difference. Moreso now. This being the case a domi's performance is not indicative of sentry performance as a whole.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#59 - 2014-01-30 08:38:03 UTC
Cypher Decypher wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:


..
On a fully skilled pilot for a range bonused boat. Much like scorch on a Paladin, if you use that as your only frame of reference you get a distorted view of how it performs in general.


Not really. I've dual-box(ed) a pair of triple-ODL'd rr Domis ever since the new hull bonuses came into play. It's a very common setup, used extensively in PvE in null as well as Empire. Granted, both pilots have Gal BS 5 but even at 4 it's a powerful and easily skilled-for platform. So the example I've cited isn't a distortion.

In fact, as many people have pointed out, the nerf hits everything *but* the Ishtar and Domi even harder.


except that a rattlesnake that flips over to 3 tracking scripts for close range has better tracking than it used to, and thats probably more important in rattlesnake applied dps, than the same thing is to a dominix or an ishtar. Realistically tracking at 50km with NPCs that fly straight at you, is not very important.

Mission rats start at 30 a LOT.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2014-01-30 09:04:48 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Cypher Decypher wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:


..
On a fully skilled pilot for a range bonused boat. Much like scorch on a Paladin, if you use that as your only frame of reference you get a distorted view of how it performs in general.


Not really. I've dual-box(ed) a pair of triple-ODL'd rr Domis ever since the new hull bonuses came into play. It's a very common setup, used extensively in PvE in null as well as Empire. Granted, both pilots have Gal BS 5 but even at 4 it's a powerful and easily skilled-for platform. So the example I've cited isn't a distortion.

In fact, as many people have pointed out, the nerf hits everything *but* the Ishtar and Domi even harder.


except that a rattlesnake that flips over to 3 tracking scripts for close range has better tracking than it used to, and thats probably more important in rattlesnake applied dps, than the same thing is to a dominix or an ishtar. Realistically tracking at 50km with NPCs that fly straight at you, is not very important.

Mission rats start at 30 a LOT.

It's true that an RS with tracking scripts would have better tracking than before, though still worse than a domi doing the same while having less range than that domi. In all reality, between the domi changes and this, there is less and less reason to use other sentry boats than the domi or ishtar.