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Assessing items - How much and why?
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Kale Silence
Doomheim
#1 - 2014-01-28 09:00:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Kale Silence
The purpose of this post is simply for me to understand, I do not claim I am the only one who is right. I simply cannot see another way of viewing this and am asking for help, even if it doesn't look like I am.

I recently had an argument with someone about how many people are in certain roleplay items. I said that the mass is a better determination for how many there are simply because the volume made no sense, including the possibility that cryogenics are involved. The volume is just way too small compared to the mass, and there is no visible correlation.

Case in point:

Elite slaves:
Mass: 300 kg
Volume: 1 m3

Vs.

Group of Elite Slaves:
Mass: 60,000kg
Volume: 60 m3

Elite slaves

I say, that due to the mass, assuming that each elite slave is 80kg due to their musclemass(and the fact that they are not pampered),

80kgpp(per person)

300kg/80kg = 3.75

3 = slaves
0.75 = simply accounting for the fact that they are wearing clothing or may have equipment of some kind.

Taking this same formula, let's apply it to the other one.

Group of Elite Slaves

60,000kg/80kg = 750 people

This means either 750, or 740-49ish people, depending on how much you want to say their clothing weighs.

Let me make this clear to the other players reading this, I do not claim my formula is perfect! If you can come up with a better one, or point out something I did wrong, please feel free! Just be nice is all.

I can do a list if needed(there are sooo many inconsistencies between a whole bunch of items that are small and large amounts), but these are the main two I want to compare.

____________________________________________________________________________________________

The argument presented to me is that the volume is what you should use to determine how many people are in the item by how many #m3 there are.
They say that people are placed in cryogenic containers for transport, which is why they weigh so much. This makes sense, and is logical. But at the same time it leaves me with more questions than I began with.

My argument, is that New Eden doesn't need Cryogenics due to warp technology and Jump gates, and thus we should go by the mass and ignore the volume as a game mechanic inconsistency.

My response to their saying it was cryogenics:

"Yes, in other Sci fi genres, cryogenics is a way to have people stored for long trips without warp or Jumpgates. Yes the technology exists, but it's almost NEVER used anymore in EVE! We have specific warp technology and jump gates and a trip going across the galaxy can be done in about a day.

We don't need that stuff."

I admit, I could have said this more nicelySad

Their response:

"I've had 100 Janitors aboard one of my Bestowers in (a solar system) for some 2 years now.
That's 730 days. These things are cargo, and as such they must be able to be stashed away for prolonged times if necessary. This is not commercial airlines we're talking about."

My question to CCP concerning this aspect of the lore, is does that simply have to do with it being an in-game item, and you assume that they were walking around and living roleplay wise because they are people? Or does the LITERAL placement of the item make the final call?

If so for either, why?

Also, if the volume is what you should use, why is it that single and plural items, eg Elite Slaves and Prisoner, they only take up 1m3 each? It simply doesn't add up. Plus, 1m3 is really small!

Why would a prisoner:

Prisoner
Mass: 80.00 kg
Volume: 1 m3

be the exact same volume as a small group of Elite Slaves? Their respective names specify whether it's plural or singular.

Plus, if you are trying to advocate that they are in containers, why is the volume so small then? Is it only the inside of the container they are in?

If it's only the inside, why is the volume what determines if it will fit in your hold or not? Are you ferrying inside-out items?

Shocked

*mind explodes*
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

My argument was that the cargo hold is simply a game mechanic that doesn't translate perfectly, and that lore wise, people can walk around in your ship. Why would we need to put them in boxes for trips? Some of them only last a jump. Some only to the other side of the solar system. Seems a bit much for a short trip.

Their response:

"Because of things like hullbreaches and other perils of space travel. Especially travel through space filled with people like (character companion) and I.

Cargoholds of ships in eve don't have the facilities for personel carrying. They are cargoholds. People in your cargo are cargo, not passengers, and they don't walk around your cargo freely."

They do have a good point. This takes into account jetcans and whatnot being left over or jettisoned. How does that fit? Why are they the way they are?

There is wayyy more to this argument, but I only have so much room.

So my conclusion unless CCP changes it, is Volume makes less sense to work with, so I simply opt for mass.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Basically CCP, what I'm asking for is a one of two things, whichever is better for you.

A list that tells me either a formula that can determine:

A. How many people are in an item by what type it is(military, civilian, slave, etc)

or

B. Each and every item and how many people are in each item by listing and explaining them individually.

Thanks!Big smile
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2 - 2014-01-28 15:21:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
response from a fellow player:

..the frak does it matter?

second response:

...the frak makes you think it's anything other than lack of attention to detail? There doesn't need to be an explanation beyond "somebody done screwed up and nobody got around to fixing it yet."

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Kale Silence
Doomheim
#3 - 2014-01-28 17:32:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Kale Silence
Stitcher wrote:
response from a fellow player:

..the frak does it matter?

second response:

...the frak makes you think it's anything other than lack of attention to detail? There doesn't need to be an explanation beyond "somebody done screwed up and nobody got around to fixing it yet."


Yes it does if you intend to roleplay sell these items :P

And that is exactly what it is :P But because of my above reason, I want an explanation.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#4 - 2014-01-29 12:45:10 UTC
One could assume that elite slaves are sold with their tools and/or some personal effects.
One could also assume they may be sold as a family unit as per having some degree of "status".
Use your imagination.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Kale Silence
Doomheim
#5 - 2014-01-29 17:07:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Kale Silence
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
One could assume that elite slaves are sold with their tools and/or some personal effects.
One could also assume they may be sold as a family unit as per having some degree of "status".
Use your imagination.


I am looking for exact. You can't sell "imagination" without plausible foundation. I need plausible foundation. Currently there is none.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#6 - 2014-01-31 03:06:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Sabriz Adoudel
Biomass generally weighs just under 1 kilogram per litre, as evidenced by the fact that most humans float, but not if you tie 3 or 4 bricks to them.

One cubic metre is 1000L.

Therefore a cubic metre of biomass is likely to be about a ton or a little less.

What is occurring here is that sometimes, you are putting a container in your cargo hold that contains a single person, but is far larger than it needs to be. Think an adult-sized coffin with a child in it - lots of space.





...edit - now that I reread this post, holy hell it is morbid...

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Kale Silence
Doomheim
#7 - 2014-01-31 04:21:47 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Biomass generally weighs just under 1 kilogram per litre, as evidenced by the fact that most humans float, but not if you tie 3 or 4 bricks to them.

One cubic metre is 1000L.

Therefore a cubic metre of biomass is likely to be about a ton or a little less.

What is occurring here is that sometimes, you are putting a container in your cargo hold that contains a single person, but is far larger than it needs to be. Think an adult-sized coffin with a child in it - lots of space.





...edit - now that I reread this post, holy hell it is morbid...


Why the (Censored) are they in a coffin in the first place?!?!?! There is no (censored) need!!!
Gabhrael Lyrian
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2014-04-02 23:18:08 UTC
Is it possible that the containers the personnel are transported in are the cargo, or perhaps that people actually have nothing to do with cargo?

Example 1, Prisoner- Could a prisoner be in a box or a cell? They'd have to be a small prisoner, at 1m3, but let's say we don't like them much.

However, crew don't use up cargo. We assume they have a crew quarters, right? What if the item weights and volumes correlate to the personal effects of a passenger, stored in cargo, rather than the person themselves?

Eg. Our prisoner carries nothing except perhaps the most basic personal effects, while Elite Slaves carry dumbbells, hygiene equipment, and other such nonsense.
Kale Silence
Doomheim
#9 - 2014-04-03 00:30:08 UTC
Gabhrael Lyrian wrote:
Is it possible that the containers the personnel are transported in are the cargo, or perhaps that people actually have nothing to do with cargo?

Example 1, Prisoner- Could a prisoner be in a box or a cell? They'd have to be a small prisoner, at 1m3, but let's say we don't like them much.

However, crew don't use up cargo. We assume they have a crew quarters, right? What if the item weights and volumes correlate to the personal effects of a passenger, stored in cargo, rather than the person themselves?

Eg. Our prisoner carries nothing except perhaps the most basic personal effects, while Elite Slaves carry dumbbells, hygiene equipment, and other such nonsense.


A prisoner in a cell would be feasible, and I think those other things you said would be logical, but the main problem is the inconsistency. Why are elite slaves and regular slaves volumes different? Why don't they just say how many people are in it? The Mass just seems easier to work with to me
Jandice Ymladris
Aurora Arcology
#10 - 2014-04-06 22:33:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Jandice Ymladris
Kale Silence wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
One could assume that elite slaves are sold with their tools and/or some personal effects.
One could also assume they may be sold as a family unit as per having some degree of "status".
Use your imagination.



I am looking for exact. You can't sell "imagination" without plausible foundation. I need plausible foundation. Currently there is none.



I highlighted this as you answered it yourself.

I collect civilians & associated myself and run into this inconsistency myself. There's some really lightweight spacious folks out there (1kg in 10 M³ volume, dang!) and some high density yet compact people (1000 kg in 0.01 m³), it can get really ridiculous if you check out the 'groups'.

So no, you won't be able to find a plausible foundation. You'll have to use your imagination. With civilians, I usually ignore the mass if it's really low. If it's high, I just imagine he carries alot of baggage, up to extreme levels (for army dudes I can get that, lots of military stuff to carry!)

On the volumes, I ignore those as there's hardly any consistency there. I usually go 1 unit = 1 person. With groups, I check if there's an individual variants of it, then use that individual's volume to check how many fit in a single group.
If no individual variant present, I take 1 m3 = 1 person (based on the tourists, most common civilian out there)

So yes, got to use your imagination & some (lots!) handwaving to have mass & volume making sense.

Edit: Gabhrael Lyrian does offer some good explanations for some of the low-end mass/volumes. It's just their baggage, as these people can use the crew-quarters of the ship. Won't solve all issues, but it's a nice way of explaining away the small volume/weight.

Providing a new home for refugees in the Aurora Arcology
Kale Silence
Doomheim
#11 - 2014-04-07 00:24:29 UTC
Jandice Ymladris wrote:
Kale Silence wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
One could assume that elite slaves are sold with their tools and/or some personal effects.
One could also assume they may be sold as a family unit as per having some degree of "status".
Use your imagination.



I am looking for exact. You can't sell "imagination" without plausible foundation. I need plausible foundation. Currently there is none.



I highlighted this as you answered it yourself.

I collect civilians & associated myself and run into this inconsistency myself. There's some really lightweight spacious folks out there (1kg in 10 M³ volume, dang!) and some high density yet compact people (1000 kg in 0.01 m³), it can get really ridiculous if you check out the 'groups'.

So no, you won't be able to find a plausible foundation. You'll have to use your imagination. With civilians, I usually ignore the mass if it's really low. If it's high, I just imagine he carries alot of baggage, up to extreme levels (for army dudes I can get that, lots of military stuff to carry!)

On the volumes, I ignore those as there's hardly any consistency there. I usually go 1 unit = 1 person. With groups, I check if there's an individual variants of it, then use that individual's volume to check how many fit in a single group.
If no individual variant present, I take 1 m3 = 1 person (based on the tourists, most common civilian out there)

So yes, got to use your imagination & some (lots!) handwaving to have mass & volume making sense.

Edit: Gabhrael Lyrian does offer some good explanations for some of the low-end mass/volumes. It's just their baggage, as these people can use the crew-quarters of the ship. Won't solve all issues, but it's a nice way of explaining away the small volume/weight.


Yea that's basically what I do, just a lot of people use the volume instead, thus making it a problem.