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Add a Suspect Flag for Mission Invasion

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Abdul 'aleem
Sumiko Yoshida Corporation
#441 - 2014-01-29 00:12:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdul 'aleem
My Little Pyongyang wrote:
Suspect flag for going into someone's pocket without authorization sounds fun. It would cause more pvp. Isn't that what pocket invaders want overall? Surely they aren't looking for easy targets and are scrub-tier pvpers.


It does seem that the biggest concern to the griefers is that this change will create more risk to them both in and out of the mission pocket.

And they are right that if this suggestion is implemented, griefing missioners will no longer be so easy/relatively risk free.

The ability for everyone and their allies to legally counter-gank mission invaders... yes please. Add a Suspect Flag for Mission Invasion

Click "like" in the original post to support it.
My Little Pyongyang
Doomheim
#442 - 2014-01-29 00:23:54 UTC
Perhaps this change wouldn't be so good for real mission runners but it would certainly be hilarious to set up traps in very busy mission hubs.

In reality if this change ever happened this whole activity of mission griefing would probably drop off substantially and there wouldn't be enough targets to make ganking them worthwhile.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#443 - 2014-01-29 00:24:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Riot Girl
My Little Pyongyang wrote:
Suspect flag for going into someone's pocket without authorization sounds fun. It would cause more pvp. Isn't that what pocket invaders want overall? Surely they aren't looking for easy targets and are scrub-tier pvpers.
A suspect flag will turn mission runners into pro PvPers.

Oh god.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#444 - 2014-01-29 00:27:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Riot Girl
My Little Pyongyang wrote:
In reality if this change ever happened this whole activity of mission griefing would probably drop off substantially and there wouldn't be enough targets to make ganking them worthwhile.

Mission runners would quit Eve or turn to mining, so yeah.

Oh god.
Abdul 'aleem
Sumiko Yoshida Corporation
#445 - 2014-01-29 00:30:01 UTC
The suggested suspect flag has relatively little to no added risk to the missioner and really adds a lot of options to legally counter mission invasion.

Fortunately it is all spelled out in the original post.

Griefers will always grief but a suspect flag for mission invasion will really make it carry more risk.

The ability for everyone and their allies to legally counter-gank mission invaders... yes please. Add a Suspect Flag for Mission Invasion

Click "like" in the original post to support it.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#446 - 2014-01-29 00:31:14 UTC
Less risk for suicide gankers though, as I previously explained.

Oh god.
Abdul 'aleem
Sumiko Yoshida Corporation
#447 - 2014-01-29 00:33:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdul 'aleem
Riot Girl wrote:
Less risk for suicide gankers though, as I previously explained.



Yeah lots of people disagree with almost everything you posted, including this.

Kind of a dead issue and totally your opinion.

The ability for everyone and their allies to legally counter-gank mission invaders... yes please. Add a Suspect Flag for Mission Invasion

Click "like" in the original post to support it.
Abdul 'aleem
Sumiko Yoshida Corporation
#448 - 2014-01-29 00:35:31 UTC
My Little Pyongyang wrote:


In reality if this change ever happened this whole activity of mission griefing would probably drop off substantially and there wouldn't be enough targets to make ganking them worthwhile.



It would certainly make mission griefing harder on the griefers if a suspect flag for mission invasion was implemented.

The ability for everyone and their allies to legally counter-gank mission invaders... yes please. Add a Suspect Flag for Mission Invasion

Click "like" in the original post to support it.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#449 - 2014-01-29 00:36:49 UTC
Very little would change, except a bit more grief for the mission runners.

People would still come into mission pockets to do whatever they are there for, and the smart missioner will still sit there and let them knowing that most of these people have support fleets waiting for the stupid missioner to open fire.

A few more mission ships would pop until people realized whats up, a few new scams utilizing the new mechanic would emerge, and likely the screams would encourage a new kind of mission griefing where PvP fleets warped in and begun poping all the high value targets while daring the missioner to open fire--- which they dont do now because CONCORD prevents it.

Seriously, there is no up side to this proposal, it only encourages and empowers the griefers to redouble their predations.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#450 - 2014-01-29 00:39:47 UTC  |  Edited by: dexington
Abdul 'aleem wrote:
My Little Pyongyang wrote:
Suspect flag for going into someone's pocket without authorization sounds fun. It would cause more pvp. Isn't that what pocket invaders want overall? Surely they aren't looking for easy targets and are scrub-tier pvpers.


It does seem that the biggest concern to the griefers is that this change will create more risk to them both in and out of the mission pocket.

And they are right that if this suggestion is implemented, griefing missioners will no longer be so easy/relatively risk free.


You realize how easily griefers could exploit the suspect timer?

All you need to do is accept a mission on you main, make a bookmark of the mission location an give it to an alt. You can now proceed to warp the victim to that location, which no one in the fleet has access to, and kill him when he lands without concord intervention.

This is just going to be the MTU "exploit" allover, griefers exploiting ****** mechanics to kill inexperienced players.

It's a dumb idea that don't even remotely solves any mission problems, except maybe for marauders pilots getting attacked by destroyers. In most other cases things remain unchanged, because the griefer would enable suspect him self, in the cases where it might give the mission runner an advantage any effect can be nullified by bringing 1-2 extra people.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Abdul 'aleem
Sumiko Yoshida Corporation
#451 - 2014-01-29 00:42:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdul 'aleem
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Very little would change, except a bit more grief for the mission runners.

People would still come into mission pockets to do whatever they are there for, and the smart missioner will still sit there and let them knowing that most of these people have support fleets waiting for the stupid missioner to open fire.

A few more mission ships would pop until people realized whats up, a few new scams utilizing the new mechanic would emerge, and likely the screams would encourage a new kind of mission griefing where PvP fleets warped in and begun poping all the high value targets while daring the missioner to open fire--- which they dont do now because CONCORD prevents it.

Seriously, there is no up side to this proposal, it only encourages and empowers the griefers to redouble their predations.


Lots of opinion there MIke... lots of opinion.

You should really read the original post (or re-read it).

All the benefits are clearly listed and spelled out there.

The fact that every mission invader would be suspect flagged really increases the ability to counter it.

Or, the missioner could choose to not do anything as they currently do.

They are certainly never forced to fight or attack in any way.

The ability for everyone and their allies to legally counter-gank mission invaders... yes please. Add a Suspect Flag for Mission Invasion

Click "like" in the original post to support it.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#452 - 2014-01-29 00:43:24 UTC
Abdul 'aleem wrote:
Yeah lots of people disagree with almost everything you posted, including this.

Lots of people disagree? You mean you and a few publords who don't care about the overall state of the game so long as they can grind isk efficiently?

A lot more people agree with me honestly, and the ones who do agree are the ones who have concise, thought out posts, valid arguments and a good understanding of game mechanics and philosophies. I'm afraid I cannot say the same about your handful of supporters.

Oh god.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#453 - 2014-01-29 00:44:29 UTC
Abdul 'aleem wrote:
My Little Pyongyang wrote:


In reality if this change ever happened this whole activity of mission griefing would probably drop off substantially and there wouldn't be enough targets to make ganking them worthwhile.



It would certainly make mission griefing harder on the griefers if a suspect flag for mission invasion was implemented.



The only way you can possibly think this would so much as inconvienence a griefer is if you have never actually experianced what you are talking about.

Its never the lone frigate stealing your stuff. There is almost always at least an off grid warfare link boosting alt in a safespot and a logistic ship, and usually a pirate faction cruiser or two to help him as soon as you open fire.

The only way to win is to stop missioning and start using the mission as bait, with your own support fleet on standby in case they bite.

Handing them more tools to grief the missioner with is a bad plan.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#454 - 2014-01-29 00:46:47 UTC
dexington wrote:
Abdul 'aleem wrote:
My Little Pyongyang wrote:
Suspect flag for going into someone's pocket without authorization sounds fun. It would cause more pvp. Isn't that what pocket invaders want overall? Surely they aren't looking for easy targets and are scrub-tier pvpers.


It does seem that the biggest concern to the griefers is that this change will create more risk to them both in and out of the mission pocket.

And they are right that if this suggestion is implemented, griefing missioners will no longer be so easy/relatively risk free.


You realize how easily griefers could exploit the suspect timer?

All you need to do is accept a mission on you main, make a bookmark of the mission location an give it to an alt. You can now proceed to warp the victim to that location, which no one in the fleet has access to, and kill him when he lands without concord intervention.

This is just going to be the MTU "exploit" allover, griefers exploiting ****** mechanics to kill inexperienced players.

It's a dumb idea that don't even remotely solves any mission problems, except maybe for marauders pilots getting attacked by destroyers. In most other cases things remain unchanged, because the griefer would enable suspect him self, in the cases where it might give the mission runner an advantage any effect can be nullified by bringing 1-2 extra people.


Great point Dexington, no one has even mentioned fleet warp yet so luckilly, no redirecting to post #434 for this one. It also brings up the subject of taking missions and then dropping fleet mid-fight.

Oh god.
Abdul 'aleem
Sumiko Yoshida Corporation
#455 - 2014-01-29 00:47:13 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:

I've provided plenty of strong arguments. You still haven't explained what is preventing you from being able to complete the mission successfully, other than your own inability to do so (despite having every tool needed).

Having read the entire thread, I have seen no substantiated point offered by you against this proposed change in the ROE.

And as you well know there is nothing a solo mission runner can do to prevent you from stealing the loot and warping out, since you are a suspect for half a second before engaging warp. The option of not accepting the mission at all, or waiting till you are not online to do the mission is available but by not stopping this extortion, I am promoting your type of game play and encouraging others to use the same style, thereby limiting chances of future success by new players in my chosen style. Of course the mission runner can attempt to gank you and loose his ship to concord but that's not really an option either is it?

That's why setting intruders to suspect will give the mission runner a chance to engage and protect what is his, and probably why you are so vehement against it.



Goldiiee, do you see any other benefits to this change other than what's already been identified and posted in the original post?

The ability for everyone and their allies to legally counter-gank mission invaders... yes please. Add a Suspect Flag for Mission Invasion

Click "like" in the original post to support it.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#456 - 2014-01-29 00:52:05 UTC
Abdul 'aleem wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Very little would change, except a bit more grief for the mission runners.

People would still come into mission pockets to do whatever they are there for, and the smart missioner will still sit there and let them knowing that most of these people have support fleets waiting for the stupid missioner to open fire.

A few more mission ships would pop until people realized whats up, a few new scams utilizing the new mechanic would emerge, and likely the screams would encourage a new kind of mission griefing where PvP fleets warped in and begun poping all the high value targets while daring the missioner to open fire--- which they dont do now because CONCORD prevents it.

Seriously, there is no up side to this proposal, it only encourages and empowers the griefers to redouble their predations.


Lots of opinion there MIke... lots of opinion.

You should really read the original post (or re-read it).

All the benefits are clearly listed and spelled out there.

The fact that every mission invader would be suspect flagged really increases the ability to counter it.

Or, the missioner could choose to not do anything as they currently do.

They are certainly never forced to fight or attack in any way.



Every benefit has been shown as false. There are no positives.

I am not conjecturing or tossing opinions. Much of what I am describing is exactly what crimewatch was developed for in the first place. I am not even a pirate, and I can think of a couple of ways to use this change to grief people.... And I have full faith in the mouth breathing baby eaters of EVE to come up with many more that I have not thought of.

That is the History of EVE. If you think it wont repeat, I mourn for your pixels.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#457 - 2014-01-29 01:00:08 UTC
dexington wrote:
Abdul 'aleem wrote:
My Little Pyongyang wrote:
Suspect flag for going into someone's pocket without authorization sounds fun. It would cause more pvp. Isn't that what pocket invaders want overall? Surely they aren't looking for easy targets and are scrub-tier pvpers.


It does seem that the biggest concern to the griefers is that this change will create more risk to them both in and out of the mission pocket.

And they are right that if this suggestion is implemented, griefing missioners will no longer be so easy/relatively risk free.


You realize how easily griefers could exploit the suspect timer?

All you need to do is accept a mission on you main, make a bookmark of the mission location an give it to an alt. You can now proceed to warp the victim to that location, which no one in the fleet has access to, and kill him when he lands without concord intervention.

This is just going to be the MTU "exploit" allover, griefers exploiting ****** mechanics to kill inexperienced players.

It's a dumb idea that don't even remotely solves any mission problems, except maybe for marauders pilots getting attacked by destroyers. In most other cases things remain unchanged, because the griefer would enable suspect him self, in the cases where it might give the mission runner an advantage any effect can be nullified by bringing 1-2 extra people.


An excellent example of why not to do this.
Abdul 'aleem
Sumiko Yoshida Corporation
#458 - 2014-01-29 01:07:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdul 'aleem
For the readers to be clear and to discuss, if anyone can offer any basis and/or facts that support the claim that compares this to the MTU, we can certainly open it up to discussion.

The ability for everyone and their allies to legally counter-gank mission invaders... yes please. Add a Suspect Flag for Mission Invasion

Click "like" in the original post to support it.
My Little Pyongyang
Doomheim
#459 - 2014-01-29 02:31:32 UTC  |  Edited by: My Little Pyongyang
Riot Girl wrote:
Abdul 'aleem wrote:
Yeah lots of people disagree with almost everything you posted, including this.

Lots of people disagree? You mean you and a few publords who don't care about the overall state of the game so long as they can grind isk efficiently?

A lot more people agree with me honestly, and the ones who do agree are the ones who have concise, thought out posts, valid arguments and a good understanding of game mechanics and philosophies. I'm afraid I cannot say the same about your handful of supporters.


Wait. You don't mission right?

Why do you care if high bears quit missioning (which they won't)? Why do you care if they can't grind isk as efficiently as before (which they will)?

I'd also love for you to explain how the suspect flags idea with missions (with missioners that roll with their babbysafety on green 24/7) will suddenly suffer MORE because of the change? They'll never accidentally shoot suspects, and vigilantes are interested in player kills, so they'll come in and blow up other suspect flagged people, even other vigilantes. This isn't the missioners problem. You actually think that the vigilantes are going to waste their time blowing up missioner wrecks especially the specific ones that matter instead of looking for more killmails?

You're a towel.
My Little Pyongyang
Doomheim
#460 - 2014-01-29 02:32:42 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
dexington wrote:
Abdul 'aleem wrote:
My Little Pyongyang wrote:
Suspect flag for going into someone's pocket without authorization sounds fun. It would cause more pvp. Isn't that what pocket invaders want overall? Surely they aren't looking for easy targets and are scrub-tier pvpers.


It does seem that the biggest concern to the griefers is that this change will create more risk to them both in and out of the mission pocket.

And they are right that if this suggestion is implemented, griefing missioners will no longer be so easy/relatively risk free.


You realize how easily griefers could exploit the suspect timer?

All you need to do is accept a mission on you main, make a bookmark of the mission location an give it to an alt. You can now proceed to warp the victim to that location, which no one in the fleet has access to, and kill him when he lands without concord intervention.

This is just going to be the MTU "exploit" allover, griefers exploiting ****** mechanics to kill inexperienced players.

It's a dumb idea that don't even remotely solves any mission problems, except maybe for marauders pilots getting attacked by destroyers. In most other cases things remain unchanged, because the griefer would enable suspect him self, in the cases where it might give the mission runner an advantage any effect can be nullified by bringing 1-2 extra people.


An excellent example of why not to do this.


If warping to a pocket triggered the suspect timer do you actually think they would allow squad warping to one? This is a lolworthy reason.