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Peace between the Empire and the Republic, a Moderate viewpoint

Author
Lady Katherine Devonshire
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#281 - 2014-01-27 08:03:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Katherine Devonshire
N'maro Makari wrote:
Now, it is different to how the Amarr may understand it, please do correct me if I presume, but for the Amarr, the purist interpretation of "family" means lineage, the blood in your veins, also to do with marriage, joining and expanding families, as well as simply immediate family, and importantly ancestors too. It is similar to how the Matari define it, but a little different.


This raises a common question: Is "Amarrian" a culture, a religion or an ethnicity? The answer to that question often depends simply on whom you ask, and the probability of which answer you get is often directly related to a person's own perceptions of their own position within the Empire - and yes, sadly, vanity often comes into play here.

That the original Amarrians originated on but a single world is common knowledge, as is the way in which we have spread out our Empire, along with our culture & religion across a vast expanse of New Eden. In this way the idea of "Amarrian" has spread beyond a mere ethnic group and into a vast Empire.

The more conservative Amarrians, sadly I feel, have yet to fully grasp this, though I suspect such ignorance is quite deliberate. By placing an emphasis on the mere idea of an Amarrian "bloodline" as it were they seek to elevate themselves above all others who are also part of the Empire but outside of that particular ethnic group. It is old fashioned racism, plain and simple.

Meanwhile, more liberal minded and forward thinking Amarrians (such as myself) define "Amarrian" as anyone who embraces Amarrian culture and follows the Amarrian Faith. In this sense, all those who give unto God thus become equal before God. Naturally this does not exempt one from following the hierarchy of society, as we must still obey our superiors, but it is a unifying factor of our society that whilst we may all bow before the Empress, even she still bows before God. This is worth noting because despite the Amarrian reputation for arrogance this proves the exact opposite: That no Amarrian sees themselves as divine, but rather merely instruments of a divine God.

It is this attitude, I believe, that is precisely why our Empire has been so successful on it's growth and stability. The idea that anyone, from the Nu-Kunni, Khanid. Ammatar, even a Gallente or Caldari who so desired, could become one of us and stand with us as equals before God. And yes, we do most certainly erase foreign cultures and replace them with our own when we assimilate a people. In this way we avoid the constant turmoil that nations such as the Federation often experience, caused in chief by so many different (and often opposing) factors all attempting to live under a single roof, as it were. The Caldari experience this to a far lesser degree, as their loyalty to the ideals of the State trump any particular loyalty to any one Megacorporation, though some sentiment remains. The Republic obviously, as seen in events throughout history, do tend to face the most internal strife during times of relative peace; an external enemy is what unites them best, as Shakor knows all to well. I believe the Republic motto is "Me against my brother, my brother and I against my uncle, my uncle and I against the other tribes, the tribes united against the Amarr." Ironic, then, that to this day they find themselves needing us for something, I would suppose.

But I digress: How is this different than the tribal family ideals of the Republic? Simply put, it is more akin to the conservative elements of the Empire that I mentioned previously. More emphasis is placed on "bloodlines" - genetic heritage, etc, than to anything else. In the minds of the Republic, one does not get to choose one's culture or destiny. One's place is assigned at birth, very much akin to a caste system, to one tribe or another based entirely on one's genome. Furthermore, loyalty to said tribe is automatically assumed. One born to Sebiestor parents, for example, will, in the eyes of the Republic, forever be a Sebiestor. They can never become Brutor or Thukker, no matter where their true loyalties lay. Even if they emigrate to the Federation (and many do) they are still considered part of that tribe even after decades of Federation citizenship and cultural assimilation.

To truly see the severity of this belief one need only look at the infamous Elder Fleet invasion, or even the terrorist attacks still taking place by so-called "freedom fighters" to this day. The Republic believes that people born with Matari DNA in their bodies must belong to their ancestral tribes, no matter how many centuries have passed since they last even met someone from said tribe. It did not and does not matter to them if a person of Matari heritage has long since converted to the Amarrian Faith, or embraces our culture - as far they are concerned, this genome is the only thing that matters. As noted before, this issue exists even amongst Matari living within the Federation, as well.

The true ugliness of it all rears it's head when it comes to actual families and marriage. To marry someone outside of one's own tribe is considered to be a social faux pas, because doing so dilutes the "purity" of the all-important "bloodline" of the tribe. Maintaining this "purity" is disturbingly important to the tribes, as is some of the less savory means in which is sometimes enforced. Those who marry outside their tribe, or worse, outside of the tribes altogether are ostracized at best and labeled "race traitors" at worse. Needless to say this has limited their expansion over the centuries, as indigenous people simply can not be assimilated when conquered - only eliminated to make room for the "pure" races of the tribes.
N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#282 - 2014-01-27 09:04:13 UTC  |  Edited by: N'maro Makari
Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:
N'maro Makari wrote:


...

Meanwhile, more liberal minded and forward thinking Amarrians (such as myself) define "Amarrian" as anyone who embraces Amarrian culture and follows the Amarrian Faith. In this sense, all those who give unto God thus become equal before God. Naturally this does not exempt one from following the hierarchy of society, as we must still obey our superiors, but it is a unifying factor of our society that whilst we may all bow before the Empress, even she still bows before God. This is worth noting because despite the Amarrian reputation for arrogance this proves the exact opposite: That no Amarrian sees themselves as divine, but rather merely instruments of a divine God.

It is this attitude, I believe, that is precisely why our Empire has been so successful on it's growth and stability. The idea that anyone, from the Nu-Kunni, Khanid. Ammatar, even a Gallente or Caldari who so desired, could become one of us and stand with us as equals before God. And yes, we do most certainly erase foreign cultures and replace them with our own when we assimilate a people. In this way we avoid the constant turmoil that nations such as the Federation often experience, caused in chief by so many different (and often opposing) factors all attempting to live under a single roof, as it were. The Caldari experience this to a far lesser degree, as their loyalty to the ideals of the State trump any particular loyalty to any one Megacorporation, though some sentiment remains. The Republic obviously, as seen in events throughout history, do tend to face the most internal strife during times of relative peace; an external enemy is what unites them best, as Shakor knows all to well. I believe the Republic motto is "Me against my brother, my brother and I against my uncle, my uncle and I against the other tribes, the tribes united against the Amarr." Ironic, then, that to this day they find themselves needing us for something, I would suppose.

But I digress: How is this different than the tribal family ideals of the Republic? Simply put, it is more akin to the conservative elements of the Empire that I mentioned previously. More emphasis is placed on "bloodlines" - genetic heritage, etc, than to anything else. In the minds of the Republic, one does not get to choose one's culture or destiny. One's place is assigned at birth, very much akin to a caste system, to one tribe or another based entirely on one's genome. Furthermore, loyalty to said tribe is automatically assumed. One born to Sebiestor parents, for example, will, in the eyes of the Republic, forever be a Sebiestor. They can never become Brutor or Thukker, no matter where their true loyalties lay. Even if they emigrate to the Federation (and many do) they are still considered part of that tribe even after decades of Federation citizenship and cultural assimilation.

To truly see the severity of this belief one need only look at the infamous Elder Fleet invasion, or even the terrorist attacks still taking place by so-called "freedom fighters" to this day. The Republic believes that people born with Matari DNA in their bodies must belong to their ancestral tribes, no matter how many centuries have passed since they last even met someone from said tribe. It did not and does not matter to them if a person of Matari heritage has long since converted to the Amarrian Faith, or embraces our culture - as far they are concerned, this genome is the only thing that matters. As noted before, this issue exists even amongst Matari living within the Federation, as well.

The true ugliness of it all rears it's head when it comes to actual families and marriage. To marry someone outside of one's own tribe is considered to be a social faux pas, because doing so dilutes the "purity" of the all-important "bloodline" of the tribe. Maintaining this "purity" is disturbingly important to the tribes, as is some of the less savory means in which is sometimes enforced. Those who marry outside their tribe, or worse, outside of the tribes altogether are ostracized at best and labeled "race traitors" at worse. Needless to say this has limited their expansion over the centuries, as indigenous people simply can not be assimilated when conquered - only eliminated to make room for the "pure" races of the tribes.


I cannot see from where you have picked up such ideas, but I can stress regarding the Matari that they are wrong, and perhaps you should re-read what I tried to put across, specifically the part where it said family goes beyond mere bloodlines. I am aware that interracial and inter-cultural marriage can be a big deal in the Empire, and I am not commenting on the rights and wrongs of that, but I don't believe there's a need to extrapolate those issues and project them onto us. Some clans would not even exist if not for intermarriage. And the Amarr are as mindful of their ancestors as we are.

Also your vision seems to be one confined to the Liberal circle of thought, and while to the credit of the Amarrian liberal following there is a sizeable liberal influence in The Empire, it is not the main engine behind policy or culture. After all, one of the Empire's leading capsuleer alliances will not allow its non-Amarrian pilots to fly in the same corporation. Commenting on the rights and wrongs of that is not my place as an official representative for SYNE, but it seems to stand as a juxtaposition to your point. I do not think the Empire can be described as the post-racial utopia you outlined.

Your vision would be attractive if it were true, however, it is manifestly not, as far as eyes outside can tell.

**Vherokior **

Lady Katherine Devonshire
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#283 - 2014-01-27 09:39:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Katherine Devonshire
The organization that you are referring to is PIE, and yes I am aware of them. They definitely fall into the extremely conservative frame of mine, to be certain, but then what can one expect from such a staunchly traditionalist military organization?

You might be surprised, however, at how many of the more liberal minded Amarr exist in the upper echelons of our government. Those such as Mr.Baracca and myself, whom believe in the Pax Amarria and the idea of a more peaceful Reclaiming, are not so much idealists as simple pragmatists. It is one thing to destroy an enemy, yet it is quite another to convert him into an ally - and you will be much stronger for it when you are done, as well.

The Caldari have a similar viewpoint, though more directly militarist, which I believe is known as the "sheathed sword" victory. Now in their case it simply means outsmarting a foe so that they realize that they cannot win and simply surrender without a fight, but the end goal lesson is the same: It is far better to capture than to destroy. When we defeat barbaric people in battles we destroy lives and lose souls, for such is the cost of war; but when we convert people peacefully, assimilate them, make them like us, then no lives need be lost, nor souls wasted, and we all prosper together.

While it may seem like idealism, again this is pragmatic logic that simply happens to achieve an ideal result.

Sadly, you are correct that an outside viewer often does not see the Empire this way, and sadly groups such as PIE - by far one of the most visible faces of the Empire - do nothing to improve this image. Yet again, they clearly do not believe in the Pax Amarria. I see them as useful simply because there are those in the Republic who see personal political gain in sacrificing their citizens in pointless war, and without groups such as PIE we would certainly find them upon our doorsteps with torches and pitchforks. Yet should the more sensible elements within the Republic ever rise to power enough to direct policy and peace is achieved, then PIE would no longer bear any relevance - something which I do not believe that they would welcome. Which brings us back to our own faults, namely, these regressive elements that believe that the Reclaiming is best done at the point of a sword.

I assure you, however, that the Pax Amarria "movement," if you will, is strong throughout the Empire. It is not just a blind ideal, it is a rational choice based on simple logic, as well. While the Sarum Family were clamoring for war, our Empress held them back and let more calm minds prevail. While I would not call her "liberal" I would most certainly attribute her the virtue of profound sensibility.

The Pax Amarria is the voice of sensibility, as previously mentioned, so it is only natural that she chose the course that she did. While I am sure that if war was more sensible she would have chosen it instead, but this was clearly not the case.

The Empire has always been slow to change, this is true, but this does not mean that we never grow or evolve.

Meanwhile, in other subjects, I assure you that the Republic's view on race & genetics is quite true. I should know, as my brother-in-law (from a long line of Matari engineers who had earned their freedom & citizenship several generations previously) was brutally murdered by the terrorists of the Elder Fleet. His crime? Being of ethnic Brutor decent but married to an Amarrian woman. "Race traitor" was the exact words they used before executing him in front of his wife and daughter.

Gaven Lok'ri wrote:
We did not do fine in Midular's reign.


Midular did not reign, Shakor did. That was the problem. It still is.
Zenito
Lekhantsi Salvage Depot
#284 - 2014-01-27 11:31:09 UTC
Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:
But I digress: How is this different than the tribal family ideals of the Republic? Simply put, it is more akin to the conservative elements of the Empire that I mentioned previously. More emphasis is placed on "bloodlines" - genetic heritage, etc, than to anything else. In the minds of the Republic, one does not get to choose one's culture or destiny. One's place is assigned at birth, very much akin to a caste system, to one tribe or another based entirely on one's genome. Furthermore, loyalty to said tribe is automatically assumed. One born to Sebiestor parents, for example, will, in the eyes of the Republic, forever be a Sebiestor. They can never become Brutor or Thukker, no matter where their true loyalties lay. Even if they emigrate to the Federation (and many do) they are still considered part of that tribe even after decades of Federation citizenship and cultural assimilation.


Lady Devonshire, Matari tribal family ties are much looser than you suggest. Especially with the Thukker; we're a practical people and bloodlines hold very little coin with us.

Take myself as an example; I am of Brutor decent. However, I know very little of the Brutor ways. I was orphaned as a bairn and adopted and raised by the Thukker caravan which I now have the pleasure to lead. My Clan and Caravan judge my leadership by my abilities, not who my long-dead parents were (may they rest peacefully with their ancestors) or what my ethnicity is.

I can understand that your opinion is based on a terrible crime against someone close to you. I hope that you're wise enough to realise that the actions of battle-crazed ground troops do not dictate the wider culture of a people.

Zenitoka Katanga

Clan Chieftain

"A fair bargain leaves both sides unhappy."

Lady Katherine Devonshire
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#285 - 2014-01-27 13:19:26 UTC
Naturally, every nation has it's warlike elements and it's more rational elements. I admit that I know little of the Thukker ways, other than them being essentially nomadic. Yet a nomadic people are ones who meet many different peoples and cultures in their travels, and this tends to broaden their worldview. So that being raised in Thukker traditions have given you this wider perspective is only natural.

I can only hope that the other tribes learn to follow suit, and that our own aggressive factions can learn to stand down as well.
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#286 - 2014-01-27 13:23:03 UTC
Quote:
The organization that you are referring to is PIE, and yes I am aware of them. They definitely fall into the extremely conservative frame of mine, to be certain, but then what can one expect from such a staunchly traditionalist military organization?


I am always amused when people call a centrist pro-Imperial power, anti-cruelty to slaves, pro-Pax Amarr organization conservative.

Have you ever met an Ardishapurite?

Admiral of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore 24th Imperial Crusade

Holder. Vassal of the Emperor Family

Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#287 - 2014-01-27 13:27:51 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:
Quote:
I know the reasons why you agree, and I do not agree with those reasons.


Really now, what are those reasons?


That you do not want CONCORD in your way.



You could not be more wrong.

If CONCORD worked, I would be all for it.

But it does not work. It has failed now multiple times to stop major conflicts between the Empires. It routinely allows for the slaughter of Imperial Civilians at the hands of capsuleers.

CONCORD steps in to stop a capsuleer from shooting another capsuleer. But it allows a capsuleer in Amarr prime to butcher whole convoys without intervention.

Either CONCORD needs to do its job and maintain the peace, or it needs to be removed so that we can be allowed to retaliate to threats against Amarr.

I would actually prefer the first, but I don't see that happening.

Admiral of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore 24th Imperial Crusade

Holder. Vassal of the Emperor Family

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#288 - 2014-01-27 13:34:04 UTC
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:
Quote:
The organization that you are referring to is PIE, and yes I am aware of them. They definitely fall into the extremely conservative frame of mine, to be certain, but then what can one expect from such a staunchly traditionalist military organization?


I am always amused when people call a centrist pro-Imperial power, anti-cruelty to slaves, pro-Pax Amarr organization conservative.

Have you ever met an Ardishapurite?


While both myself and the Lady Devonshire would be seen as the more touchy-feely liberal side of the Empire and I might not precisely call PIE centrist, I think I somewhat agree with Gaven here. PIE is a militaristic organization, but they're not necessarily the most conservative elements of society. This coming from one of the few liberal voices in the Ardishapurite feifdom, believe me there is much worse.

Unfortunately, there are also some of us who make your most ardent Reclaim-them-with-the-holy-fire-of-scorch Ardishapur noble look like a Gallente daytime early morning show host. They're very often relegated to the fringes of our society (they tend to be involved in illegal slave trading and handling) and have the sort of political acumen you might expect someone to. Despite the claim, Amarrians don't typically refer to and treat their slaves like domesticated animals. Those few Amarrians that do, though, exist.

In that light, I wouldn't necessarily call most members of PIE backward conservatives. They may be fighting the Republic and, thus, take a dimmer light of them because of it, but I imagine that if peace were struck tomorrow, PIE would stop fighting and go about with whatever new mandates were sent to them. They're simply serving a role in a military zone, and you have a certain view of the world and the enemy when that is your role in life. It's hard to say that they shouldn't be so quick to judge Matari. Considering they spend so much time in the war zone, they can be fairly sure of what any Matari in their theater of operations are there for.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Lady Katherine Devonshire
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#289 - 2014-01-27 14:43:00 UTC
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:
I am always amused when people call a centrist pro-Imperial power, anti-cruelty to slaves, pro-Pax Amarr organization conservative.


When at such time as I see disappear the boundaries separating the main body of PIE from it's Auxillaries, which is to say that archaic race-based system of hierarchy that places a glass-ceiling on those people whom we are supposed to be uplifting, then my opinion shall stand as it is.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#290 - 2014-01-27 15:25:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Milady Devonshire,

There are already uplifted peoples in PIE Inc--such as the Khanid and the Ni-Kunni. The Auxiliary is for those of us who are still in need of guidance, who are still at risk of falling back to the influences of our original cultures outside the Empire.

The race hierarchy is not archaic. It is the way of things. We all have our proper places, and we all serve those higher than ourselves. The True Amarr are the Chosen of God; they carry out His Divine will and rule His creations. The rest of us, as having turned from God, serve the Amarr. But as we return to His light, we cleanse our lines of the sins of our ancestors and become teachers ourselves to those further behind than us.

Eventually, there won't need to be an Auxiliary, because our races will have fully embraced God, like the Khanid, the Udorians, the Ni-Kunni, and others. But we are not there yet. We are still far behind on that path. We should not demand greater position than what we have been given, for those wiser than us know better than us how far we are on the path to salvation.


And Mr. Makari,

I already have an understanding of Matari society, as I lived in the Republic for several years. I still fail to see how the Starkmanir were any different from any other slave. Their former tribal culture had been eliminated as they have been living in the Empire for generations. There was nothing left for the Republic to preserve. They were servants of Amarr and God.
Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#291 - 2014-01-27 15:30:55 UTC
Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:
I am always amused when people call a centrist pro-Imperial power, anti-cruelty to slaves, pro-Pax Amarr organization conservative.


When at such time as I see disappear the boundaries separating the main body of PIE from it's Auxillaries, which is to say that archaic race-based system of hierarchy that places a glass-ceiling on those people whom we are supposed to be uplifting, then my opinion shall stand as it is.

Not that I have much stock in the outcome of this discussion... But I have to say, I found something of a personal note in the glass ceiling analogy.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117

Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#292 - 2014-01-27 15:42:40 UTC
Your masters have trained you well in mouthing their racist nonsense Kernher. Gods and spirits, you should listen to yourself sometime.

You are the perfect little meat puppet dancing to the tune that your bigoted masters play.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#293 - 2014-01-27 16:04:24 UTC
Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:

The Caldari have a similar viewpoint, though more directly militarist, which I believe is known as the "sheathed sword" victory.


Just because you have killed the enemy with the scabbard should never mean you're unwilling to make the cut.

That aside, I wonder at your misconception that assimilation is peaceful when in fact it's war through culture.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#294 - 2014-01-27 16:19:52 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:

The Caldari have a similar viewpoint, though more directly militarist, which I believe is known as the "sheathed sword" victory.


Just because you have killed the enemy with the scabbard should never mean you're unwilling to make the cut.

That aside, I wonder at your misconception that assimilation is peaceful when in fact it's war through culture.


I think, sometimes, we give the impression that the Amarr Empire has been static since it began on our tiny island so long ago. That simply isn't the case. Every culture that has joined the Empire has, in their way, changed things. However, whereas Republican and Gallente cultures tend to remain distinct inside their empires, the Amarr Empire simply absorbs things and makes those things which would once have been considered, say, Udorian, into Amarrian elements.

It gives the impression that we simply dominate everything we touch, but that isn't the case. As slaves become free and bring their former culture more firmly into the fold, we, as Amarrians, absorb those traits. Plenty has already come through from the Ammatar even though they've not had quite as long being part of the Empire. Things simply take time to be evaluated and judged before becoming part of larger society.

It isn't really warfare, peaceful Reclamation, nor even really a process of assimilation. It's mostly a process of growing together as one, large, cohesive society. An element of our society that I would think Statists might appreciate.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#295 - 2014-01-27 16:23:42 UTC
Why did the Starkmanir matter? Others have explained too, but here is why I think they did.

Pretty much since its conception, the Republic has struggled to keep the balance between two political views with the same goal but an opposing view of methods and timing. There are those who say we should seek peace with the Enemy, to explore peaceful solutions (in the best case) and at least prepare before the full-out war (in the worst case). Then there are those who say that no peace is honorably possible, and we must not negotiate with the Enemy, but to attack now to either liberate every kinsman and -woman (in the good case) or to lose everything but at least keep our honor (in the bad case). The balance has never been a comfortable one, and in the final years of Karin Midular's regime, the bad blood was already starting to cause a serious rift, a threat worse than the Empire alone could have caused.

The Starkmanir are a powerful symbol. They are, according many legends, the Tribe that started the rebellion, and paid for it with a fate worse than death: extinction, death on a scale that surpasses the chain of generations. To fully understand what that means, I suspect, you have to be Matari, and possible that is not enough, but to be of a clan with such a chain. Nevertheless, when the Starkmanir was rediscovered, it was a test of sorts: will we fight for the Lost Tribe, or will we abandon even them?

My guess is, had we left them alone, the secessionist war-minded faction would not have gone for them anyway.

It was no choice.

And if anyone believes it was a coincidence that the Starkmanir were found at a moment where the "discovery" forced the hand of the Republic into a war we have much less chance of winning than we would have had we waited, oh, say, twenty years more... they are a fool.

Elsebeth
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#296 - 2014-01-27 17:57:34 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Why did the Starkmanir matter? Others have explained too, but here is why I think they did.

Pretty much since its conception, the Republic has struggled to keep the balance between two political views with the same goal but an opposing view of methods and timing. There are those who say we should seek peace with the Enemy, to explore peaceful solutions (in the best case) and at least prepare before the full-out war (in the worst case). Then there are those who say that no peace is honorably possible, and we must not negotiate with the Enemy, but to attack now to either liberate every kinsman and -woman (in the good case) or to lose everything but at least keep our honor (in the bad case). The balance has never been a comfortable one, and in the final years of Karin Midular's regime, the bad blood was already starting to cause a serious rift, a threat worse than the Empire alone could have caused.

The Starkmanir are a powerful symbol. They are, according many legends, the Tribe that started the rebellion, and paid for it with a fate worse than death: extinction, death on a scale that surpasses the chain of generations. To fully understand what that means, I suspect, you have to be Matari, and possible that is not enough, but to be of a clan with such a chain. Nevertheless, when the Starkmanir was rediscovered, it was a test of sorts: will we fight for the Lost Tribe, or will we abandon even them?

My guess is, had we left them alone, the secessionist war-minded faction would not have gone for them anyway.

It was no choice.

And if anyone believes it was a coincidence that the Starkmanir were found at a moment where the "discovery" forced the hand of the Republic into a war we have much less chance of winning than we would have had we waited, oh, say, twenty years more... they are a fool.

Elsebeth


On that note, though, if that conspiracy theory proves to be correct, I can't say it was in the Amarr Empire's interest to do precisely that. It would have been much easier to launch a covert attack of our own and embarrass the Republic before it had even gotten off the ground. Then they could have exterminated the Starkminar and made a nonspecific thank-you to believers within the Republic (and gotten me killed in the process, most likely).

At least that's how I would have done it. I wouldn't have invited an attack that became a P.R. victory, at the very least, for the Republic. The then-administration under Karsoth suffered most from the invasion and the current Empress didn't gain anything she couldn't have gained via an attack or intervening on behalf of CONCORD.

I'm not saying you're wrong necessarily, obviously I've seen more ridiculous things come to pass in interclusteral politics for even more bizarre reasons. I'm just not sure who specifically would have stood to gain from the actions as they occurred. Would it have been a miscalculation?

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#297 - 2014-01-27 20:33:35 UTC
If this mess is a PR victory, I am not sure I ever want to see a loss.

Else
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#298 - 2014-01-27 21:16:11 UTC
I personally take offence at being called a 'backward conservative'. You'd think people would do their research.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#299 - 2014-01-27 21:34:54 UTC
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:

You could not be more wrong.

If CONCORD worked, I would be all for it.

But it does not work. It has failed now multiple times to stop major conflicts between the Empires. It routinely allows for the slaughter of Imperial Civilians at the hands of capsuleers.

CONCORD steps in to stop a capsuleer from shooting another capsuleer. But it allows a capsuleer in Amarr prime to butcher whole convoys without intervention.

Either CONCORD needs to do its job and maintain the peace, or it needs to be removed so that we can be allowed to retaliate to threats against Amarr.

I would actually prefer the first, but I don't see that happening.


Isn't it what I said ? That you do not want CONCORD in your way...

Oh well... You are not wrong on that sore point though. CONCORD's case these days is annoying.

Though who do you think presides at the Inner Circle ? Representatives of all Empires. You brought it upon yourselves.

Also, some might say that this deplorable state of affairs is still preferable to an outright full scale war. I find PIE Inc view on the matter rather shortsighted, if I may say so.

Are ashes Reclaimable in scripture by the way ? I am pretty sure that the trillion of dead Amarr citizens will feel relieved when the gates of Paradise will open to them as martyr for the cause... The same way they already open to the ones dying from CONCORD failures.

Samira Kernher wrote:

And Mr. Makari,

I already have an understanding of Matari society, as I lived in the Republic for several years. I still fail to see how the Starkmanir were any different from any other slave. Their former tribal culture had been eliminated as they have been living in the Empire for generations. There was nothing left for the Republic to preserve. They were servants of Amarr and God.


What Mr Makari says is that the invasion of Halthurzhan and the liberation of the Starkmanir remnants was a political coup.

That the Starkmanir matter or not for the Minmatar as a people does not matter in interstellar politics.

Samira Kernher wrote:


Eventually, there won't need to be an Auxiliary, because our races will have fully embraced God, like the Khanid, the Udorians, the Ni-Kunni, and others. But we are not there yet. We are still far behind on that path. We should not demand greater position than what we have been given, for those wiser than us know better than us how far we are on the path to salvation.


And the Ealur right ?

People always forget the Ealur.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#300 - 2014-01-27 21:39:06 UTC
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
I personally take offence at being called a 'backward conservative'. You'd think people would do their research.


I hope they did not confuse you with Fierach...