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Paladin short 1k dps

Author
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#41 - 2014-01-26 12:53:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
Quote:
What's the point of using a medium repper when a large one is 150% more efficient?

The point is that a lot of people do not understand the difference between burst and perma tanking or what frontloading your HP/s does. Its a priori easier for them to turn on a repper and leave it working at all times.

And thats wrong but meh.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#42 - 2014-01-26 13:05:38 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:
That is a compound question really. If you really want to go in, bastion and proceed to hit from 0-100km, you should do pulses. Tracking makes a lot of difference in damage application in short-ish ranges, and gleam will not make up for it. No other way around it, if you try both setups at short range the difference is more than evident.

Marauders though have a built in damage projection (bastion) and mobility bonus (MJD). So the other way to use a Pally is to warp in, spool up, jump and then bastion and hit everything from 40-150km. What you lose in mission turnaround due to moving away from gates/objectives, you gain in damage application and projection. Range indirectly boosts tracking, bastion removes yourself from the tracking equation while limiting npcs to very low degrees of angle, and you can project good DPS out to your max targeting range while adjusting instantly due to the crystal reloading time. You also have to tank less, but Marauders are very good for that anyway so it really doesn't matter.

After some testing, I really think tachs work better for my flying style. I split the turrets in two groups, MJD away and then deliver 3000ish alpha to two targets at the same time, working in a sfi-sfo basis (from smallest to highest sig). And by having an MWD as a backup, I don't really have to slowboat or triangulate to reach a mission objective either.

Hope that helps, cheers...C:


Tachs do more dps than pulses beyond 30km while not being forced into low thermal damage types. So if you are capable of fighting beyond 30km then Tachs > pulses. Tachs can still operate within that 30km given decent targets due to gleam and TC but obviously not as good as a pulse fit will. But using Tachs over 70km forces you to use lower dps crystals, so MJDing away from targets generally just means lower applied dps. Just because they can hit at 100km doesn't mean one should choose to fight around that range.

So, to me it's not a "go for pulses unless the mission is long range" but rather "go for tachs unless the mission is short range".
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#43 - 2014-01-26 13:17:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
Gregor Parud wrote:


Tachs do more dps than pulses beyond 30km while not being forced into low thermal damage types. So if you are capable of fighting beyond 30km then Tachs > pulses. Tachs can still operate within that 30km given decent targets due to gleam and TC but obviously not as good as a pulse fit will. But using Tachs over 70km forces you to use lower dps crystals, so MJDing away from targets generally just means lower applied dps. Just because they can hit at 100km doesn't mean one should choose to fight around that range.

So, to me it's not a "go for pulses unless the mission is long range" but rather "go for tachs unless the mission is short range".


There is a big difference between paper and applied DPS in tachs. If you do not use an MJD to keep the npcs in chase mode and your angular vel low, you actually lose a lot of DPS from grazing in many scenarios. You might see no problems when running the mission (since the Pally melts everything pretty fast), but if you don't want to use an MJD (or know how to use it to boost your isk/hr instead of lowering it) then pulses will really serve you better. They have TWICE the tracking while hitting out to 100km with scorch and +870DPS (without implants), you have to understand that.

This is not an opinion btw, just some results derived from the tracking formula and npc behaviour in PvE.

To illustrate, here is a simple example. In X-ray for mega pulse (firing slightly into falloff), In multi for tach. Elite cruiser sig.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/Dante80/bellycancer/26-Jan-1415-22-55_zpse69e0c28.jpg

And another. IN multi vs gleam, elite frigate sig.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/Dante80/bellycancer/26-Jan-1415-28-25_zps8228c86f.jpg
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#44 - 2014-01-26 13:47:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Oh yes, using MJD as tactical option to help your tracking makes good sense, you're right on that. But many people have this mistaken "must be at 100km range because it's cool".

However:

Lets assume my Tach fit hitting an unfitted Harbinger at 100km, that forces you to use Gamma and you'll do 915@100 to that non-transversal BC and it'll do 960@90km. Now picture that fit shooting at that same BC at full transversal (orbiting) still using range scripts and switched to MF, if that happens then the target has to be within 39km to finally drop below 916 dps and it would be 50km for 960 dps.

But you don't have to keep using range scripts, you could switch to tracking and then they'd have to be within 25 or 31km (depending on which dps number you use, 916 or 960) before range + gamma makes more sense. And THEN you can still switch to Gleam where the 916 dps will be attained at 19km and 960@23km. And all that time it keeps the thermal damage compound as high as is possible for lasers when compared to gamma (or even longer range crystals).

This is of course against BC targets and against cruisers then yes you'll be better at range, but then again cruisers aren't even speed bumps. But vs BC or even better BS you're simply better off using MF or gleam even if shooting at shorter (relatively) ranges than MJDing away forced into Gamma.

Keep that tach fit (mine specifically, numbers will obviously be different for other fits) between 20 and 85km and you'll out perform "MJD and use Gamma" both in applied dps as in damage types, would you not be shooting Amarr based NPC.
STush T
House of Tuachair
#45 - 2014-01-26 17:34:37 UTC
A bit of thought and i decided that the dps rig + 4 heatsinks didnt give good enough returns. Instead I fitted an optimal range rig, so now I can do full dps for further

INMF optimal out to 59km
2 tracking comps with optimal scripts loaded 68km
bastion + ^ 76km
New tactic, jump past npcs, or to the left or right depending on range, turn and shoot while either burning towards or away them, again depending on range. Less tank needed, able to fit the 4th heatsink and tracking computer.

Those graphs are very insightful, but I have a hard time believing xray will do 700+dps out to 140km, or that xray even does 900+dps at 50km. Further testing required. However, the gleam vs pulse INMF was a bit of an eye opener. Gleam certainly does have a small window to be used in. Clearly I dont know my crystals well enough since i would think that scorch would out perform xray and gamma.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#46 - 2014-01-26 18:14:29 UTC
ignoring tracking tachs with gamma out damage scorch at any range. and in my experience npc frigs are stupid and very rarely need more than 1 shot.

I also think the paladin has more than enough optimal range.

STush T wrote:
IIshira wrote:
From what I've been told CCP will reimburse PVE losses if it's because of a disconnect. Right now they're even refunding ships lost to PVP MTU aggro.

A Nightmare will warp off if you disconnect but the Paladin will not if in Bastion mode.


Really doubt this to be true because its to easy to be abused, for instance, "oh no, my super blinged ship is about to pop to npcs, im scrambled, what to do? I know, ill throw my router across the room, ripping out the ethernet cord, and there by giving me a glorious disconnect. Then ccp can give me isk for my ship."
So probably just a bad rumor.

I know i might be pushing some peoples patience here, but im eagerly waiting to hear back about the damage rig + 4 heatsinks. Are the returns worth it due to stacking penalties?


if you were in bastion mode it would be impossible for the npcs to scram you. that said when bastion ends and your ship would theoretically try and warp off they would have a chance to scram you.

that said I'd love to see a mission where npcs were remotely a threat to a blinged out bastioned marauder

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#47 - 2014-01-26 18:33:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
STush T wrote:
Those graphs are very insightful, but I have a hard time believing xray will do 700+dps out to 140km, or that xray even does 900+dps at 50km. Further testing required. However, the gleam vs pulse INMF was a bit of an eye opener. Gleam certainly does have a small window to be used in. Clearly I dont know my crystals well enough since i would think that scorch would out perform xray and gamma.


Those two graphs are used for angular velocity, not range. The range is constant in both. Here is what x-ray does for mega pulse and beams when you take range into mind. Cruiser target.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/Dante80/bellycancer/26-Jan-1420-32-02_zpse8c74094.jpg

A proper tach pally can do up to ~865DPS @107+50 with x-ray on paper before implants (and ~955DPS with).
STush T
House of Tuachair
#48 - 2014-01-27 06:54:54 UTC
aaaaaaaakay, pardon my lack of graphical understanding.
Kirkwood Ross
Golden Profession
#49 - 2014-01-27 07:07:49 UTC
Get two hardwirings to improve larger laser damage.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#50 - 2014-01-27 18:33:43 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:


There is a big difference between paper and applied DPS in tachs. If you do not use an MJD to keep the npcs in chase mode and your angular vel low, you actually lose a lot of DPS from grazing in many scenarios..


Of course if you just sit there trying to kill everything your applied DPS with beams is going to suck. My questions is why would anyone do this? Just MJD where the NPC's are 70-100 km away and go to town as the all blindly approach you.

I've always wanted to try a pulse fit. Yes you can kill stuff at 70 km but to get maximum DPS you need everything close. This would mean putting more of a tank on it. I wouldn't think the 1 or 2 EANM tank would work if you had everything at 20km. Yes Bastion mode adds a huge boost to tank but it also holds you in place. Not a good thing when you realize the incoming DPS is a bit more than your repper is fixing.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#51 - 2014-01-27 18:42:41 UTC
lets not forget the most important factor here lads,



tycoon lasers sound ******* badass
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#52 - 2014-01-27 18:52:57 UTC
IIshira wrote:

Of course if you just sit there trying to kill everything your applied DPS with beams is going to suck. My questions is why would anyone do this? Just MJD where the NPC's are 70-100 km away and go to town as the all blindly approach you.



Read this post, my response was to that. If you check out the tach loadout I use (and posted in this thread), you will see that I agree with you...C:
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#53 - 2014-01-27 22:40:45 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:
IIshira wrote:

Of course if you just sit there trying to kill everything your applied DPS with beams is going to suck. My questions is why would anyone do this? Just MJD where the NPC's are 70-100 km away and go to town as the all blindly approach you.



Read this post, my response was to that. If you check out the tach loadout I use (and posted in this thread), you will see that I agree with you...C:


It sounded like you were trying to say that beams weren't a good choice because they have issues tracking close targets... I must have misunderstood... Too little sleep and too much work in RL

I always wanted to try an "In your face" DPS loadout but I'm not sure the limitations of a Marauder do would work. You can't move while in Bastion so you either have to burn in range, activate Bastion then kill everything before it goes out of range. Of course some mission ships will stay right on top of you so this isn't an issue with those missions.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#54 - 2014-01-27 22:42:30 UTC  |  Edited by: IIshira
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
ignoring tracking tachs with gamma out damage scorch at any range. and in my experience npc frigs are stupid and very rarely need more than 1 shot.

I also think the paladin has more than enough optimal range.

STush T wrote:
IIshira wrote:
From what I've been told CCP will reimburse PVE losses if it's because of a disconnect. Right now they're even refunding ships lost to PVP MTU aggro.

A Nightmare will warp off if you disconnect but the Paladin will not if in Bastion mode.


Really doubt this to be true because its to easy to be abused, for instance, "oh no, my super blinged ship is about to pop to npcs, im scrambled, what to do? I know, ill throw my router across the room, ripping out the ethernet cord, and there by giving me a glorious disconnect. Then ccp can give me isk for my ship."
So probably just a bad rumor.

I know i might be pushing some peoples patience here, but im eagerly waiting to hear back about the damage rig + 4 heatsinks. Are the returns worth it due to stacking penalties?


if you were in bastion mode it would be impossible for the npcs to scram you. that said when bastion ends and your ship would theoretically try and warp off they would have a chance to scram you.

that said I'd love to see a mission where npcs were remotely a threat to a blinged out bastioned marauder


I wasn't talking about being scrammed but rather the emergency warp mechanic itself. It's my understanding that your ship tries to warp only one time right when you disconnect... If you're in Basion it can't do this. After that your ship will just hang out there till it either goes pop or you log back on and warp out.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#55 - 2014-01-27 23:01:58 UTC
STush T wrote:
Just discovered after some advice, there are TWO damage inplants. Slot 9 for all turrets, and slot 10 for lasers. 10% is defiantly something im going to pursue.

Conflag, i do get 1000+ dps with only 3 heatsinks so maybe the tactic is fit a nano in the lows instead of a fourth heatsink and fly the pally like a mach.

Anyway, thanks for the advice, and for anyone else, your more then welcome to post your pally 1000+ dps fit so I can compare/ unashamedily imitate.

You can get 14% with sufficient investment.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#56 - 2014-01-28 00:08:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
Good luck finding Pashan's implants....and good luck not losing them to a gank (ppl that do buy them tend to make their ships look like giant tooth-fairy checks, or advertise them like idiots)...
Allaera
Kalmincon
#57 - 2014-01-28 15:17:39 UTC
Zenith Gravit wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
That's a hilariously dumb fit, you probably shouldn't use any of the fits that guy gives you.

Oska Rus wrote:
[best fit for getting yourself ganked. :D


I'm not flying one, nor am I close, but other than all the bling why is is so bad?


You didn't specify where that fit is being used but I'm suspecting Null, yes? If so then that fit can work, but If not and it's in hisec.....well, I'd be more than happy to demonstrate what happens when it gets scanned down and my cloaky gets inside smartbomb range Twisted
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