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Neuting drones need to be fixed
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Starbuck05
Abiding Ormolus
#1 - 2014-01-23 18:45:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Starbuck05
Because they suck soooooooooooooo badly!! Now i know why people never use them..

I like to experiment fits and fly funny stuff on ocasion just to give my opponent a wtf moment which on ocasion leads to my win. And lately i fealt in love with the sentinel because its such a great ship for 1v1 encounters mostly because it can neut stuff from 20+ km's.
So last night i decided to experiment an algos fit with neut drones trying to simulate the same tactic, constant neuting.... So you can immagine my face the moment i saw that...after getting tackle on an enyo ,droping neut drones and seeing in drone window they are agresing, by the time when i see my hull going past half dmg i look at my drone window thinking wtf ( yea that moment ) how is this enyo still shooting without cap AND funny enough he was also neuting me back with a neut in high... I see that my awesomesausce drones where sitting iddle... .. ..so naturaly i lost that one.

Apparently , you need to constantly tell them to agress the target because if not they just roll one cycle of neut then they stop...which is imensly stupid.

Now mind you, i had my drones set to agresive,still didnt work..



Im sure alot of pro pvp'ers would say i am To blame for not seeing my drones iddle sooner or not knowing this before..yea well ur right..still doesnt change the fact that they need a fix..

I could have won that :( buuuuhuuu


P,s, excuse bad grammar

Just because i am blond does not make me stoopid !
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2014-01-23 21:08:14 UTC
Have you tested this since to make sure?
I know i saw them used in the alliance tourny to great effect as a surprise weapon but i have never used them myself.
might just have been derp on your part.
I would be interested in a confirmation /rebuttal on this point.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#3 - 2014-01-23 21:43:06 UTC
this behavior happens on all drones that move. Those approach enemy with mwd and then they stop mwding when enemy goes too far they start again mwd and so on... but only 3 times.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#4 - 2014-01-23 21:46:11 UTC
Just looking at the numbers they are not great. Five light neuting drones will kill 25 capacitor every six seconds. A T2 small neut kills 54 cap every six seconds. You are in essence getting less then half a small neut in very weak hitpoints drones. For this dubious privelige you are also giving up 80-100 DPS in combat drones. Ugh
Starbuck05
Abiding Ormolus
#5 - 2014-01-23 22:35:47 UTC
Silvetica Dian wrote:
Have you tested this since to make sure?
I know i saw them used in the alliance tourny to great effect as a surprise weapon but i have never used them myself.
might just have been derp on your part.
I would be interested in a confirmation /rebuttal on this point.





i am 99% sure of what i said above .



Its like i said , i know for sure they where agresing ( blinking red in drone window ) when i fisrt told them to .. and then after a while they where iddle ( green ) so i can safely assume they did one cycle of neut then they stoped working .


Also my enemy wasnt mwd-ing back and forth , to answer the second post's question

Just because i am blond does not make me stoopid !
Starbuck05
Abiding Ormolus
#6 - 2014-01-23 22:44:27 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Just looking at the numbers they are not great. Five light neuting drones will kill 25 capacitor every six seconds. A T2 small neut kills 54 cap every six seconds. You are in essence getting less then half a small neut in very weak hitpoints drones. For this dubious privelige you are also giving up 80-100 DPS in combat drones. Ugh





yes , i completely agree they are not great , which also adds as another reason why they should be fixed to work .



Yes , i agree they are less worth it then a small neut , but , in some fits they are worth it , because even those 25 cap per 6 seconds are crucial to ships that need cap to fire guns besides anythin else . As a strategy , they are not that bad ( if they worked properly ) because even though t2 hobs can dish out 100 dps its not all that good when your A) Your enemy willl chew you up faster regardless ... and B) The enyo's main high resist is thermal/kinetic . Sure at this point ur gonna suggest warrios , still not good enough .

So by using neut drones i would have outlasted the dps before he ran out of cap and i would have won .. but .. because they don't work as they should , there-in lies the problem .


I hope i was clear enough , again i do know and realise dps combat drones are better , but why have ewar drones at all then ? i'd like to use them further because its the element of surprise and a game changer .

Just because i am blond does not make me stoopid !
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#7 - 2014-01-24 01:11:20 UTC
Don't worry, CCP has vowed to remove all drones from the game entirely some day, thus solving all these problems once and for all.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Tetsuo Tsukaya
Perkone
Caldari State
#8 - 2014-01-24 06:08:25 UTC
Starbuck05 wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Just looking at the numbers they are not great. Five light neuting drones will kill 25 capacitor every six seconds. A T2 small neut kills 54 cap every six seconds. You are in essence getting less then half a small neut in very weak hitpoints drones. For this dubious privelige you are also giving up 80-100 DPS in combat drones. Ugh





yes , i completely agree they are not great , which also adds as another reason why they should be fixed to work .



Yes , i agree they are less worth it then a small neut , but , in some fits they are worth it , because even those 25 cap per 6 seconds are crucial to ships that need cap to fire guns besides anythin else . As a strategy , they are not that bad ( if they worked properly ) because even though t2 hobs can dish out 100 dps its not all that good when your A) Your enemy willl chew you up faster regardless ... and B) The enyo's main high resist is thermal/kinetic . Sure at this point ur gonna suggest warrios , still not good enough .

So by using neut drones i would have outlasted the dps before he ran out of cap and i would have won .. but .. because they don't work as they should , there-in lies the problem .


I hope i was clear enough , again i do know and realise dps combat drones are better , but why have ewar drones at all then ? i'd like to use them further because its the element of surprise and a game changer .


I would imagine against an Enyo you would either keep out of range so that it's damage was mitigated or you would be dead long before neut drones had a chance to shut down its guns.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#9 - 2014-01-24 10:31:32 UTC
Enyo's cap is pretty weak. Sure he wasn't vamping instead of neuting?

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Starbuck05
Abiding Ormolus
#10 - 2014-01-24 20:38:14 UTC
Im v sure enyo had a neut,cause the neut icon was showing on top of my cap.

Also, unless ur running full snakes and loki boost u can't orbit a frig with an algos at scram range with ab on,and as far as im aware 10mn ab algos fits are not that viable.


Now can we get back on topic that ewar drones suck? Tp , td , damp and web drones included... I only persue this in the hopes that ccp reads and do something about it because as a concept they are not bad..they just need a balance pass and they might end up as a good tactic in solo even small gang pew

Just because i am blond does not make me stoopid !
GreenSeed
#11 - 2014-01-25 22:45:57 UTC
Starbuck05 wrote:


Apparently , you need to constantly tell them to agress the target because if not they just roll one cycle of neut then they stop...which is imensly stupid.

no. they don't stop, they neut all the time. what happened was that the drones entered orbit, then the enyo burned a cycle and lost the drones. that happens with any slow drone, even hobgoblins do that from time to time.

and yes, they suck, all ew drones suck. that's because of their terrible speed, and awful stack penalties.

drones should not have stack penalties with one another if they belong to the same ship.

so 5 stasis lights should web for 10%+10%+10%+10%+10%, for a total of 50%, if another ship sends another 5 drones in then those next 5 lights should get penalized, but as a flight not as individual drones.

they already die to one volley, so they wont be op at all, just usable.
Mnemosyne Gloob
#12 - 2014-01-26 04:10:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Mnemosyne Gloob
GreenSeed wrote:
and yes, they suck, all ew drones suck.


ec 300s suck huh?
Anomena
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2014-01-26 04:54:09 UTC
GreenSeed wrote:
Starbuck05 wrote:


Apparently , you need to constantly tell them to agress the target because if not they just roll one cycle of neut then they stop...which is imensly stupid.

no. they don't stop, they neut all the time. what happened was that the drones entered orbit, then the enyo burned a cycle and lost the drones. that happens with any slow drone, even hobgoblins do that from time to time.

and yes, they suck, all ew drones suck. that's because of their terrible speed, and awful stack penalties.

drones should not have stack penalties with one another if they belong to the same ship.

so 5 stasis lights should web for 10%+10%+10%+10%+10%, for a total of 50%, if another ship sends another 5 drones in then those next 5 lights should get penalized, but as a flight not as individual drones.

they already die to one volley, so they wont be op at all, just usable.


First of all I would just like to point out EC-300 drones are hardly bad. It feels like they're everywhere. If half an ECM-modules jam strength per drone is fair, well that's up to someone else to decide. What's so strong about them though (especially in a brawl situation or a situation where a kiter wants to get out of scram+web) is that if they fail to jam the target then you can just return them and then redeploy, over and over until you get a jam off.

As for the other ewar drones, yeah they are completely horrible (or at least I cant remember ever seeing anyone use them seriously).

If stasis drones didn't stack with themselves, don't you think that the lights 5% would be enough? They would be very useful for catching kiting ships with that combined 25%. The heavies would also probably have to be taken down to 15%/drone instead of the previous 20%. On this topic, I did some (I assume correct) maths on the topic of our current web drones and these are the values I got: 5 light drones slow the target by ~13.4%, 5 mediums with 25.5% and 5 heavies 45.9% (that's not even a meta 1 webs slowing power for the price of 125 drone bandwidth).
Sphit Ker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2014-01-27 14:01:51 UTC
I found a legit and proper use for them! They will keep the capacitor dry once it's been thoroughly nuked (by modules). Turns out, I can't be bothered to stuff my hold with those for the odd chance it would work that one time.

It knows what you think.
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#15 - 2014-01-27 15:16:39 UTC
Anomena wrote:
GreenSeed wrote:
Starbuck05 wrote:


Apparently , you need to constantly tell them to agress the target because if not they just roll one cycle of neut then they stop...which is imensly stupid.

no. they don't stop, they neut all the time. what happened was that the drones entered orbit, then the enyo burned a cycle and lost the drones. that happens with any slow drone, even hobgoblins do that from time to time.

and yes, they suck, all ew drones suck. that's because of their terrible speed, and awful stack penalties.

drones should not have stack penalties with one another if they belong to the same ship.

so 5 stasis lights should web for 10%+10%+10%+10%+10%, for a total of 50%, if another ship sends another 5 drones in then those next 5 lights should get penalized, but as a flight not as individual drones.

they already die to one volley, so they wont be op at all, just usable.


First of all I would just like to point out EC-300 drones are hardly bad. It feels like they're everywhere. If half an ECM-modules jam strength per drone is fair, well that's up to someone else to decide. What's so strong about them though (especially in a brawl situation or a situation where a kiter wants to get out of scram+web) is that if they fail to jam the target then you can just return them and then redeploy, over and over until you get a jam off.

As for the other ewar drones, yeah they are completely horrible (or at least I cant remember ever seeing anyone use them seriously).

If stasis drones didn't stack with themselves, don't you think that the lights 5% would be enough? They would be very useful for catching kiting ships with that combined 25%. The heavies would also probably have to be taken down to 15%/drone instead of the previous 20%. On this topic, I did some (I assume correct) maths on the topic of our current web drones and these are the values I got: 5 light drones slow the target by ~13.4%, 5 mediums with 25.5% and 5 heavies 45.9% (that's not even a meta 1 webs slowing power for the price of 125 drone bandwidth).




ECM drones roll for jamming at the end of their cycle, and have for a while now.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#16 - 2014-01-27 15:39:46 UTC
You were in a sentinel. Why would you even use neut drones when your ships hull bonuses are so much better? Not to mention that Enyo could have easily had a cap booster to mitigate your neut drones. A sentinel kites, neuts, and kills with drones. It is that simple.
Starbuck05
Abiding Ormolus
#17 - 2014-01-27 17:22:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Starbuck05
Estella Osoka wrote:
You were in a sentinel. Why would you even use neut drones when your ships hull bonuses are so much better? Not to mention that Enyo could have easily had a cap booster to mitigate your neut drones. A sentinel kites, neuts, and kills with drones. It is that simple.




is everyone blind OR stupid ???



i was in an algos when i was using neuting drones to try a new fit



oh and , all of what u said above , i already know . Jesus how arogant some people can be ...

Just because i am blond does not make me stoopid !
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#18 - 2014-01-27 17:51:51 UTC
The key feature is that you don't need to be in the Enyo's gun range to apply the neuts. If he has mwd, then you'll neut him out pretty quickly with the drones (less than a minute). If he is AB then it will take too long (AB T2 assault ships are cap buffed), but you may be able to keep range on him if you are fit right.

Bottom Line: AB ships are resistant to neuting drones, MWD ships are not.
Conclusion: Balanced.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#19 - 2014-01-29 04:20:55 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
The key feature is that you don't need to be in the Enyo's gun range to apply the neuts. If he has mwd, then you'll neut him out pretty quickly with the drones (less than a minute). If he is AB then it will take too long (AB T2 assault ships are cap buffed), but you may be able to keep range on him if you are fit right.

Bottom Line: AB ships are resistant to neuting drones, MWD ships are not.
Conclusion: Balanced.




Speed has always been a mitigating factor against drones. What these drones specifically need is a balancing pass. There is little rhyme or reason to some of the statistics given to them. For example:

Light neuting drones are much slower then the T2 Acolyte. The medium and heavy neuting drones are much faster then the T2 Infiltrator and Praetor respectively. ???
Five light neuting drones take 4.1 cap per second compared to 9 cap per second of a small neut. Where is the beef?
Five medium neuting drones take 8.3 cap per second compared to 15 cap per second of a medium neut. Better but sucky still.
Five heavy neuting drones take 20.8 cap per second compared to 25 cap per second of a heavy neut. Almost as good.
The neuting drones have typically one third to one fourth of the structure and half of the armor of the combat drones. Horrible.
The optimal, max neut range, and proximity activation range of all the drones leave one scratching their head. i.e. - Heavy has a 5km optimal, 10km neut range, and 7km proximity activation. ???

Some consistency would be great. Neut drones get 75% of the speed and 75% of the hitpoints of their combat cousins. Five light drones equal or come closer to a small neut. Five medium drones likewise have an equal comparison to a medium neut. The heavy neut drones already almost equal a heavy neut and would be a great starting point - at least in the power department. All of the above are of course simple suggestions given as examples.

The benefits of assigning your neuting to drones is obvious. There is easier fitting for weapons or tank and less capacitor stress. The downsides are also obvious. Drones will have to keep up with the target and miss neut cycles. The drones can be killed. You are forgoing DPS drones to get the potential to neut. Right now the cost isn't worth the reward.
Ynot Eyob
Nisroc Angels
The Obsidian Front - Reborn
#20 - 2014-01-29 11:16:45 UTC
I have to agree on the light neut drones, but medium and heavy can be quite usefull.

I tackled a Maelstrome not long ago in a Hurricane, and before i knew it, my cap was dry. Turned out he was using EV Drones.

Nisroc - Angel of Freedom Nisroc is known as "The Great Eagle".
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