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Abdul 'aleem

Sumiko Yoshida Corporation

Likes received: 175

#41 - 2014-01-27 16:34:01 UTC

Estella Osoka wrote:

I have no vested interest what so ever. I am in faction warfare, so I can't even go to Caldari COSMOS. If I want PVP, I stay in lowsec. If I want isk, I farm FW plexes for LP. I can make more isk from that than any mission invasion would ever provide.

Yeah sure

The ability for everyone and their allies to legally counter-gank mission invaders... yes please. Add a Suspect Flag for Mission Invasion

Click "like" in the original post to support it.

Doomheim 10
Jonas Porter Doomheim Likes received: 10	#42 - 2014-01-27 16:38:52 UTC 1 Hi I checked the thread I think you're on about but I didnt see any counter to Estellas point. I don't want my mission space being swarmed wiht thiefs and mercs I just want to be able to mission in peace.

Abdul 'aleem

Sumiko Yoshida Corporation

Likes received: 175

#43 - 2014-01-27 16:40:01 UTC | Edited by: Abdul 'aleem

Jonas Porter wrote:

Hi I checked the thread I think you're on about but I didnt see any counter to Estellas point.

I don't want my mission space being swarmed wiht thiefs and mercs I just want to be able to mission in peace.

Post your concerns, they will be addressed.

But do yourself the favor of reading the thread.

As many have said, it is quite funny.

The ability for everyone and their allies to legally counter-gank mission invaders... yes please. Add a Suspect Flag for Mission Invasion

Click "like" in the original post to support it.

Jenn aSide

Worthless Carebears

The Initiative.

Likes received: 16,192

#44 - 2014-01-27 16:40:23 UTC

Tauranon wrote:

Paikis wrote:

dexington wrote:

The problem with sites getting scanned down is really simple, DON'T DO +1B REWARDED COSMOS MISSIONS WITH COMBAT PROBES ON DSCAN!!!!!

This is a failure of an argument. If I want your Wei-Todaki there is literally not a thing you can do to stop me from either taking it or destroying it.

Let me explain.

I warp to somewhere outside of your D-scan range (~15AU) and drop my probes. I then move said probes 20+ AU above the plane of the system to put them in a place where you simply cannot ever see them on D-scan. If the system happens to be small enough that I can't warp outside your d-scan range, you have about 5-6 seconds to notice my probes before they are gone. No one hits D-scan that often. I lived in wormholes for almost 2 years, I am the most paranoid pilot in Eve, to the point where I keep d-scan up and scanning even when in a system with no one in local. It's a habit at this point. Even I don't hit d-scan every 5 seconds. You will not see me drop my probes. I 100% guarantee it.

I then use my d-scan to narrow your position down to within a very small area. This is done by finding you with the 5 degrees setting and then getting a range. Do this twice from two different places and I know roughly where you are, to within half an AU or so (or more usually, just find you once with 15 degrees and get a range, that is almost always enough). I then place my probes there and hit scan. Instantly I have a warpable hit. By the time you see my probes scanning you down, it is too late, you cannot stop me from getting a warp in for your mission site.

Thanks for that!

The way I would solve that - on the presumption that you have a virtue fitted alt that I don't know the name of, and will never see uncloaked.

(a) fly a t3 with eccm sub + eccms fitted.
(b) not field drones at all - in my case that would be a rail proteus and just keep the 25m3 bayed.
(c) do the encounter by shooting something, then shooting its wreck, so that references to the encounter location are not left in space.
(d) leave the encounter regularly for long periods, (or just cloak up and do other stuff for a while if aggro drops), so as to deny you an ongoing reference for you to d-scan yourself closer with. In the end you'd be left with little pieces of the puzzle stretched over multiple time zones.
(e) keep the d-scan spam up, which is something that I am capable of doing in these scenarios, especially because I'd not attempt to complete it all in 1 go so I might be d-scan spamming for 5 minutes at a time.

I completely recognise that there being a solution is just like there being a solution to miner ganking though - ie people will read this thread after they lose their object, and not before, so how to make your life hard being published, won't even dent your efficiency, but its there.

(of course if DMC is directing a lot of people there in a guide, he might be able to short circuit that a bit).

So much this.

My number one rule of thumb when it comes ot EVE is "don't ask CCP to do for you what you should be doing for yourself. Any idea that violates this rule is IMO a bad one. EVE is about player creativity, not about DEV intervention. Developers shold only intervene in situations where the problem is about the "infrastructure" of the game (like when they fixed the high sec lvl 5 bug)

I've done this chain 4 times to get that michi implant and 3 of those times I waited till that character could fly a T3. The 1st time was when T3s were truly unscannable but it worked great the other 2 times even with probes on d-scan (though I always chose to leave the mission if probes were on scan for more than a minute. it's the "1 bil isk at the end of the rainbow" COSMOS mission chain, CCP should do nothing to make this safer or easier on the mission runner.

Abdul 'aleem

Sumiko Yoshida Corporation

Likes received: 175

#45 - 2014-01-27 16:43:54 UTC

Quote:

Have you read the thread then, Tauranon?

Because one of the limits placed on the missioner is a time constraint that forces them to complete within a set time or the mission fails. Gankers/griefers/"pirates" and mission thieves know this and could currently d-scan until you automatically fail the mission.

This makes the d-scan option less than 100% reliable and the missioner can currently be deprived of completing the mission entirely.

The proposal is to make anyone warping into a missioner's pocket a suspect so anyone can kill them.

Think of how many more legal options all missioners will have if it is implemented?

You would be able to have as many people as you want team up to defend the mission site with you?

Wouldn't that make it much easier on all missioners?

And not this?

The ability for everyone and their allies to legally counter-gank mission invaders... yes please. Add a Suspect Flag for Mission Invasion

Click "like" in the original post to support it.

Jonas Porter

Doomheim

Likes received: 10

#46 - 2014-01-27 16:44:46 UTC

Abdul 'aleem wrote:

Jonas Porter wrote:

Post your concerns, they will be addressed.

But do yourself the favor of reading the thread.

As many have said, it is quite funny.

I have read the thread and am posting my concerns as a missioner.
The title of this thread says it will affect me.
I want to be sure that my mission wont become a pvp arena for people I dont want there.

Jenn aSide

Worthless Carebears

The Initiative.

Likes received: 16,192

#47 - 2014-01-27 16:48:02 UTC

Estella Osoka wrote:

People like this need to demonize folks like you, because if you don't have a vested interest in the thing being talked about, it means you honestly thing what they are saying is wrong, and how can they ever be wrong (lol)?

I get it all the time despite being a PVE focused player who doesn't do pirate crap (not because pirate stuff is wrong, this is EVE, but because i don't find the idea of pirating appealing personally). I just think players in a game like this should stand on their own two (space) feet and not always be asking CCP to make things easier in some way,

Maxor Swift

Science and Trade Institute

Caldari State

Likes received: 24

#48 - 2014-01-27 16:48:28 UTC

Gimme more Cynos wrote:

Abdul 'aleem wrote:

Gimme more Cynos wrote:

Hum, beeing the mussion runner that I am, I'm not affected and can't see a point on your proposal.

It's my own damn fault if i let someone steal my mission object. Straight

Maybe it's because I've never went on cosmos, and can't imagine that you can't do anything agaist it (park an MWD BS and Bump the hell out of him?).

I am sorry that you don't understand the proposal and how it opens up options to counter mission invasion that do not currently exist.

I hope that you re-read the thread.

You can convo me in game and I will explain it item by item if you need more specific help.

It is spelled out clearly for everyone in the original post, but it is a longish read.

Well, I do understand that you think that you own a mission-pocket - thus, you want the right to kick someone out if you don't want him there. I do understand your view, I just disagree - Imho, you don't own sites in space (you don't own the loot, rats and salvage either).

:)

If i spawned it i own it(and the penalty for non completion) thats why when you loot MY wrecks you get a suspect tag.

"What you talking about willis"

Abdul 'aleem

Sumiko Yoshida Corporation

Likes received: 175

#49 - 2014-01-27 16:57:28 UTC

Jonas Porter wrote:

Abdul 'aleem wrote:

Jonas Porter wrote:

Post your concerns, they will be addressed.

But do yourself the favor of reading the thread.

As many have said, it is quite funny.

I don't understand your concern exactly, perhaps you can be more specific of what you are afraid of happening?

And please post in the features & ideas

The ability for everyone and their allies to legally counter-gank mission invaders... yes please. Add a Suspect Flag for Mission Invasion

Click "like" in the original post to support it.

Gimme more Cynos

Deep Core Mining Inc.

Caldari State

Likes received: 153

#50 - 2014-01-27 17:00:37 UTC | Edited by: Gimme more Cynos

Maxor Swift wrote:

Gimme more Cynos wrote:

Abdul 'aleem wrote:

Gimme more Cynos wrote:

Hum, beeing the mussion runner that I am, I'm not affected and can't see a point on your proposal.

It's my own damn fault if i let someone steal my mission object. Straight

Maybe it's because I've never went on cosmos, and can't imagine that you can't do anything agaist it (park an MWD BS and Bump the hell out of him?).

If i spawned it i own it(and the penalty for non completion) thats why when you loot MY wrecks you get a suspect tag.

It isn't yours until you looted it. Owning something is a lot different than beeing allowed to do stuff with it. Just use rats as an example - I can spawn 5 billion BS rats in belts without owning even one of it.

Jonas Porter

Doomheim

Likes received: 10

#51 - 2014-01-27 17:00:54 UTC

Abdul 'aleem wrote:

Jonas Porter wrote:

Abdul 'aleem wrote:

Jonas Porter wrote:

Post your concerns, they will be addressed.

But do yourself the favor of reading the thread.

As many have said, it is quite funny.

I don't understand your concern exactly, perhaps you can be more specific of what you are afraid of happening?

And please post in the features & ideas

It looks like you have 3 threads running with this theme - i will post in this one as Im a missioner and it effects me.

I am concerned about what Estella said about my mission becomng a pvp warzone between theifs and mercs / whatever.
I dont want either there.

Abdul 'aleem

Sumiko Yoshida Corporation

Likes received: 175

#52 - 2014-01-27 17:04:53 UTC | Edited by: Abdul 'aleem

Jonas Porter wrote:

Abdul 'aleem wrote:

Jonas Porter wrote:

Abdul 'aleem wrote:

Jonas Porter wrote:

Post your concerns, they will be addressed.

But do yourself the favor of reading the thread.

As many have said, it is quite funny.

I don't understand your concern exactly, perhaps you can be more specific of what you are afraid of happening?

And please post in the features & ideas

Yeah if you notice, the thread crappers are trying to shut all three down also.

If you do not want to suspected of being among said "thread crappers", Features & Ideas is the place to post.

Otherwise it may look like you just want to fan up the fear also. Your choice.

The ability for everyone and their allies to legally counter-gank mission invaders... yes please. Add a Suspect Flag for Mission Invasion

Click "like" in the original post to support it.

Estella Osoka

Cranky Bitches Who PMS

Likes received: 1,148

#53 - 2014-01-27 17:06:06 UTC

Abdul 'aleem wrote:

Estella Osoka wrote:

Yeah sure

Believe what you will.

Personally i'm beginning to believe you are a pirate alt who just wants this implemented so you can ruin the mission experience in hisec; as your suggestion will effectively turn hisec mission sites into PVP arenas.

Jenn aSide

Worthless Carebears

The Initiative.

Likes received: 16,192

#54 - 2014-01-27 17:09:37 UTC

Estella Osoka wrote:

Abdul 'aleem wrote:

Estella Osoka wrote:

Yeah sure

I actually don't believe that, i simply believe that (like most "brilliant idea" people) the OP didn't think this one all the way through and is now getting defensive about being called on it. He could have avoided that by thinking through his idea better before posting.

It's just easy to blame "thread crappers" than it is to admit a mistake like an adult would.

dexington

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 1,268

#55 - 2014-01-27 17:10:37 UTC

Jonas Porter wrote:

I am concerned about what Estella said about my mission becomng a pvp warzone between theifs and mercs / whatever.
I dont want either there.

There are only a handful of missions that have mission specific items, and at the same time give rewards big enough to make it worth it to try and steal the loot. It's not going to change anything for missions in general, we are talking about one specific mission that give the mining implant, which is worth +1B isk.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.

Abdul 'aleem

Sumiko Yoshida Corporation

Likes received: 175

#56 - 2014-01-27 17:14:53 UTC

This is enough for me.

(another highlight from the Features & Ideas Thread):

DeMichael Crimson wrote:

+1 for the OP. I fully support and endorse this proposal. It is well thought out and concise.

Those posting in opposition are failing miserably trying to come up with reasons not to implement a suspect flag for Mission Invasion. Hell, even the term sounds aggressive :

Quote:

INVASION :
An invasion is a military offensive in which large parts of the armed forces of one geopolitical entity aggressively enter territory controlled by another such entity, generally with the objective of either conquering, liberating or re-establishing control or authority over a territory, forcing the partition of a country, altering the established government or gaining concessions from said government, or a combination thereof. An invasion can be the cause of a war, be a part of a larger strategy to end a war, or it can constitute an entire war in itself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion

As for ownership, the mission pocket actually belongs to the Agent who is offering it to the player. Once the player accepts the mission offer, that player is now held accountable for it. That, in all intents and purposes, makes the mission runner the owner regardless of the Sov listed in the top left corner of the screen. Usually the actual site itself doesn't spawn until the Mission Runner initiates warp.

There's only a couple of Cosmos Missions that actually spawn the site when accepted such as the 2nd mission of Cosmos Agent - Drone Mind. That mission spawned a site with a visible warp beacon on Overview which anyone could access. CCP has just recently programed that site to spawn multiple times in multiple systems all at the same time due to other players constantly completing the site causing Cosmos Mission Runners to either fail or pay exorbitant prices for the objective item. The same goes for a couple of other Cosmos Agent missions which have visible beacons in Overview.

Anyway back to topic, doesn't matter if it's a Ninja Salvager or Suicide Ganker who enters the site, it's still an invasion which is an aggressive act. Those who think Ninja Salvagers should be exempt or are trying to use that as a reason to dismiss the OP's proposal need to seriously do some research on the terms used :

Quote:

NINJA :
A ninja or shinobi was a covert agent or mercenary in feudal Japan. The functions of the ninja included espionage, sabotage, infiltration, and assassination, and open combat in certain situations. Their covert methods of waging war contrasted the ninja with the samurai, who observed and followed strict rules about honor and combat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja

A true Ninja Salvager would never be seen by the Mission Runner. As such a Suspect Flag wouldn't matter. Most of the so called 'Ninja Salvagers' in this game now are nothing more than Mission Invaders. They obviously aren't very Ninja like at all and have no problem taking loot to get flagged in order to provoke PvP action. So the Suspect Flag is again not a problem.

As for new players, the safety system is set to full (green) right from the start. They wouldn't be able to warp to the site since that would be a suspect action, thus there wouldn't be any accidents happening. All players have the option to change their safety settings from Full (green) to allow suspect acts (yellow) or to perform criminal acts (red). If they do so, ignorance of consequences for those actions can not be used as an excuse.

DMC

Thanks again man.

The ability for everyone and their allies to legally counter-gank mission invaders... yes please. Add a Suspect Flag for Mission Invasion

Click "like" in the original post to support it.


Jonas Porter Doomheim Likes received: 10	#57 - 2014-01-27 17:38:50 UTC Ok i will post my concern there. i am not a "thread crapper" just a missioner who likes the idea but is worried about it turning my missions into pvp arenas. I do not want this.

Batelle

Federal Navy Academy

Likes received: 2,629

#58 - 2014-01-27 17:39:10 UTC

Here's the deal.

1. It would do very little to deter mission invasions. More importantly, it would do very little to prevent mission items being stolen.
2. You want to make warping to someone a suspect-level offense.

#1 means you're not solving the problem you're trying to solve, or address it in a meaninful way. #2 means you're haphazardly messing with stuff and causing trouble in parts of the game that are working just fine.

If you actually want to make it so mission items cannot be stolen, then this needs some other kind of proposal. I might even support it, as I agree on the basic premise that it is a problem, that missioners have little they can do to defend or prevent it, and the penalties for having an item stolen are unduly harsh.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Chainsaw Plankton

FaDoyToy

Likes received: 3,263

#59 - 2014-01-27 17:47:45 UTC

I skipped over nearly all the replies, but I will say for the average mission is is fairly trivial to buy the item, or go out and steal one for yourself. In general I don't really care what happens either way for these cases.

but for something like Wei Todaki where the mission is pretty much one chance I think the issue is more complex. right now there is one on contracts for 740mil. Last time I looked, around the time of that thread, there weren't any. I am very okay with the item being stolen and ransomed.

suspect locked gates seem like an interesting idea. at least then you can say you did/didn't fight for it. although I feel like most pirates would like that as nearly anyone that jumps into a mission seems to go suspect as soon as they can (if they weren't already) and start stealing wrecks trying to get you to shoot at them.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter


Abdul 'aleem Sumiko Yoshida Corporation Likes received: 175	#60 - 2014-01-27 17:51:01 UTC I hope that the real missioners are getting as much fun out of all these posts as I am. lol. The ability for everyone and their allies to legally counter-gank mission invaders... yes please. Add a Suspect Flag for Mission Invasion Click "like" in the original post to support it.

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