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Wrong start in S&I?

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ithinkimade itwrong
Doomheim
#1 - 2014-01-27 00:00:41 UTC
Hi folks,

before i start i want to thank Tau Cabalander and several other guys i didn't remember but especially this guy cause i read many posts from in here. Helped me much, but i think i still failed Oops


0: Okay, heres the Story:
Wanted to start S&I to get a decent Income, created acc with 2 extra chars on it, bought corp, set up a pos near from Jita(just anchor, not online for the future) and looked for a good System. The account isn't that old, so they still train up production efficiency 5 but i got another alt who started a bit with manufacturing and so i got a few problems i want to get away when the other 3 guys are ready.

1: With 3 Guys with in total of 30 slots, i can make very many items at once. The problem i got here is: how should i sell all these things?
I produced some Standard L and Multifrequency L with the first one and some Scrips but it was horrible to sell them(0.01 ISK war). I just got the Standard away as i made a mistake and forgot 1 digit(14mil lost but i learn from mistakes ;) ).
So thats my first Question: When i'm not able to sell my stuff from 1 guy, how should it work with 3? Any tips? Or better other Trade hub than Jita?

2: Another one: I always read that you should produce in Stations(why?) and the Problem i see here is firstly how i get the minerals to the station/pos(yeah, red frog, but i think i wont be able to fill a whole freighter :P) and secondly, i can't find any system where there are enough slots for this?! How do u manage to do that?
And in a pos, i can manufacture the things faster, so why not there?

3: And another one: i got a large tower and would get enough labs online and would still have free cpu/pg for assemply arrays. Is it worth it?(I think if you answer the previous question, this will be not needed to answer ;) ).

4: Research looks to be needed for almost everything(look at the drones :( ) so i thought i would need a pos but i'm not sure if it's worth it to online it. I need to make 400m with it and how should i make this from just copying/research(yeah, maybe some assembly arrays in 3) but most of the tower is used for that so you sell your copies or do u use them for faster production(if faster production then question 1 gets even more important for me ;) ).

Hope u can help me out with this and thanks in advance guys!
Xurr
Wasted Potential.
#2 - 2014-01-27 00:34:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Xurr
Right, so

1.

As you learned you can't sell 30 slots worth of scripts per day. Not all items sell in high volumes and the best items have competition. Check the volume in the trade hub before making them. If you set the price right your stock will sell within a week or so. Expecting the items to sell in a few hours is unrealistic if you don't wish to engage in .01 isk wars.

There isn't a higher volume trade hub than jita. There are hubs with less competition.

2.

People produce in stations because stations can't be attacked. Not all POS assembly crap is 100% efficient. Look at the base material multiplier. Those that say 1.1 are ripping you off.

If you aren't going to be able to fill a freighter I don't understand how you think you could use 30 manufacturing slots.

Finding a system that fits your needs is something I and most others probably can't help you with. The systems which are closer to hubs are more popular. Systems further out are less popular.

3.

If you wish to manufacture in space it could be worth it. I wouldn't suggest it starting out however.

4.

You could buy BPOs that have been researched by others. Given your comment about not being able to fill a freighter I'm not sure a large research POS would be the best fit for you.

Your BPCs (copies) would mainly be used in invention for T2 items. You can sell some BPCs. Mainly these would be higher priced items such as freighters, cap parts, dreads, carriers, titans and such. I could be wrong about this, but I rarely see threads in the sell forum for say t1 armor rep BPCs.
Selaria Unbertable
Bellator in Capsulam
#3 - 2014-01-27 01:37:16 UTC
Wall of text incoming, it's late here and I did drink a little, hope it does make enough sense. Let's get started:

1. Get EVE Isk Per Hour, update the prices for your trade hub/system and check the SVR (sales volume ratio). That will tell you, if you can sell the volume you produce within a day (at least theoretically, as you will have competitors who also sell their stuff). A SVR of 1.00 means, that a day's production of that item sells within a day in that particular system. So the higher the SVR, the better.
And don't run 30 slots with just a few item types, that won't work well, unless you found a niche and can actually sell what you produce within a short period of time. Instead, produce a larger variety of items, e.g. modules, drones, ammo, whatever you like. Just don't put all your bets on just one horse, you know?

2. Stations are the default way to build stuff, some people running their own POS use the spare PG/CPU for some assembly arrays, which produce items faster than stations do (with a time multiplier of 0.75, which means 1/3 more items in the same time compared to a station line). I do that, in fact I only use stations when I build T2 ships. Some people will say that this is a waste, but with my current setup I can keep 3 characters busy, I have all the research slots I need, and you do not depend on free station slots that much. If you do research (PE, ME, Copying, Invention) that is imho a way to utilize the remaining resources of your tower and compensate for the expenses due to fuel.
2a. Train a freighter pilot. You will reach the point where you easily fill a freighter full with materials faster than you think, especially with 3 characters. Red frog is a good alternative, but you will be restricted to 1B in total value (and you should not haul that much more in total value, even by yourself). Either way, it will cost you. Be it training time or the contract fees. Don't forget to calculate the latter into your manufacturing costs. Red frog does not charge that much, but it still sums up over time.

3. It can be worth it. I use my own assembly arrays, and it took some time until I figured out the best setup for myself. If you have the tower and all the labs you need and still have spare CPU (PG is not much of an issue, CPU is the usually the problem), why not utilize it? Assembly arrays have a better time modifier than station lines, you will produce 33% more items in the same time as you would in a station, and you don't have to pay any usage fees. The fees you will be saving are not that much, even with 30 lines running 24/7, but higher volumes produced means more isk per hour, if you choose the right stuff to build.

4. Can't give you any advice on how to make money with pure research, I only research my own blueprints and make copies for invention. If you want to do it from scratch, not buying researched BPOs, then you need a pos, unless you want to haul your expensive blueprints through low sec to find a free ME line.

The last thing is a personal opinion: don't try to sell your stuff in Jita. It's great for buying, as you get almost everything there, but there are far better places to sell. There are other trade hubs for example, small local hubs, mission hubs etc. I don't think Jita is a good place unless you want to play the 0.01 game all the time. Too much competition, too many sellers, just too much effort to keep your sell orders up to date.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#4 - 2014-01-27 09:49:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
ithinkimade itwrong wrote:
before i start i want to thank Tau Cabalander and several other guys i didn't remember but especially this guy cause i read many posts from in here. Helped me much, but i think i still failed Oops

Thanks for the nod. I'd give you a thumb-up icon if it existed, because you've at least done some reading Big smile

I'm sorry things aren't working-out to well for you though. I suspect that may be for following my advice too closely, i.e. you will never get rich from scripts or any charges for that matter. I recommend them as a starting place for new industrialists to get there feet wet, and don't expect people to run 30 lines of them.

Did you at least spend some time thinking, and doing research to see which ones sell the best? That was a part of the lesson.

ithinkimade itwrong wrote:
1: With 3 Guys with in total of 30 slots, i can make very many items at once. The problem i got here is: how should i sell all these things?
I produced some Standard L and Multifrequency L with the first one and some Scrips but it was horrible to sell them(0.01 ISK war). I just got the Standard away as i made a mistake and forgot 1 digit(14mil lost but i learn from mistakes ;) ).
So thats my first Question: When i'm not able to sell my stuff from 1 guy, how should it work with 3? Any tips? Or better other Trade hub than Jita?

Don't play the 0.01 ISK game. Look at the trade volumes, and price your items accordingly, then forget them for at least 24 hours. If they don't sell within 3 days, then lower your price, but not by 0.01 ISK.

0.01 ISK shouldn't be a problem most of the time if you did your market research ahead of time (hint, hint), and you made a trial run to test the waters and see how things sell.

Tip: Sunday seems to be the best trade day, but it is best to list on Friday. Don't worry about poor sales early in the week (e.g. not much really moves on Monday).

Laser crystals, especially T1, are not the greatest thing to manufacture when you think about it, as they last so dang long [T1 last forever, and T2 last 4000 shots.]. However, you can sell more of them at a popular mission station if an LP store requires them.

There are other trade hubs than JIta. I've sold a lot of stuff in Hek and Rens; they do a surprising amount of mining out there, though I bought the materials in Jita. I used to buy some moon materials in Tash-Murkon Prime, as it is close to a major lowsec entry, and closer to Amarr. [Tip: missiles don't sell well in Amarr space, and they often have meta launchers at bargain prices.]
ithinkimade itwrong wrote:
2: Another one: I always read that you should produce in Stations(why?) and the Problem i see here is firstly how i get the minerals to the station/pos(yeah, red frog, but i think i wont be able to fill a whole freighter :P) and secondly, i can't find any system where there are enough slots for this?! How do u manage to do that?
And in a pos, i can manufacture the things faster, so why not there?

It takes a lot of ISK to fuel a POS compared to paying for an assembly line. Consider what a POS adds to the production cost.

ithinkimade itwrong wrote:
3: And another one: i got a large tower and would get enough labs online and would still have free cpu/pg for assemply arrays. Is it worth it?(I think if you answer the previous question, this will be not needed to answer ;) ).

I do this when I don't have much to manufacture or research. My POS more than pays for itself, even when I don't manufacture anything.

ithinkimade itwrong wrote:
4: Research looks to be needed for almost everything(look at the drones :( ) so i thought i would need a pos but i'm not sure if it's worth it to online it. I need to make 400m with it and how should i make this from just copying/research(yeah, maybe some assembly arrays in 3) but most of the tower is used for that so you sell your copies or do u use them for faster production(if faster production then question 1 gets even more important for me ;) ).

You really need to check the waters before you dive in head first.

First figure out how to make ISK without spending any ISK, i.e. do some spreadsheets and watch the markets.

I can earn over 1b ISK per month profit with 5 slots manufacturing just one item. With 10 lines I can match or beat that with far more common items that many people ignore.

You just need to spend some time thinking about what to manufacture first, followed by verifying with the market that your hunch is correct.

Example 1: When a ship is destroyed, what needs to be replaced? When you think about it, the hull is probably the lowest trade volume (i.e. avoid this market), because there is only one per ship that needs to be replaced. What else needs to be replaced?

Example 2: What does pretty much everybody use? Stuff that could be found on any ship, or in anybody's hangar, including your own.

Example 3: What do other manufacturers need? Many won't bother with the simpler low-margin or high production / copy time stuff, but they need large amounts of them. [When I was manufacturing jumpfreighters, I emptied the market of freighter BPC for months, and caused the price to rise by about 50%. I still needed more. Then the jumpfreighter market crashed, and I moved on. Last I looked, there was a glut of BPC on the market.]

Example 4: Can you capitalize on people's laziness? I once sold probes and probe launchers at a SoE station in the middle of nowhere (but not much of a detour from my normal travels), at a considerable mark-up to LP store buyers.

There are so many opportunities if you start asking yourself similar questions, and doing the research to answer them.
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2014-01-27 12:40:58 UTC
Do the research on profits/sales volume before you buy the blueprint.
Research the blueprint to optimal levels before you need to start using it.
A POS is helpful but not needed.
My manufacturing alt has dozens of well researched BPO's and has 10 lines running 24/7. I researched them all myself in highsec stations. My only bottleneck now is copy slots for T2 invention but as i only build T2 when i have nothing else to build if actually have tons of T2 BPC's ready to build and i will prob spend a few weeks clearing the backlog shortly.
Knowing your market is very very important and tale time to learn.
Some items i leave up for weeks until they go back to the price point i know they will. Liquid isk is no longer an issue and i have plenty of other thing to build.
Other items i need to sell within 24hrs for throughput reasons and those i aggressively 0.01 isk for 30 mins during a time of day i know buyers are around.
other items i know won't get undercut if i go far enough lower than the next best offer.
Same with buying. some things i know i can get with minimal effort at 0,01 isk and others i know i need to price halfway between highest buy and lowest sell.
My market isn't Jita.
I could make a lot more isk than i do by being more proactive or doing station trading but i prefer to spend my game time PVPing and the 700mill-1 bill /week i make is plenty to replace losses.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Louis Catcher
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2014-01-30 14:08:59 UTC
Hey mate,

As the other guys has specified research is your best friend when using a pos to manufacture. Make sure you do enough iso/hour and that you are able to pull out enough jobs out of your pos to be able to pay for fuel.

I am also running a large POS for manufacturing, I have 5 toons and I can easily sell off 50x2 batches of what I manufacture within 2-3 days, but yes it is a ISK war and therefore I have a 6th toon sitting in jita and updating my orders several time per day.

To make your POS efficient I strongly recommend to get in to invention, it is about 1 and a 1/2 month of training in to specific invention but will be worth it in the end.

Good luck with your S&I.