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Are the bonus'es broken on the Helios
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Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#1 - 2014-01-26 23:17:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Little Dragon Khamez
I fancied a change on my other toon who is skilled for exploration etc, so I decided to buy a Helios. Like most people I had used the T1 imicus for a long time before deciding to move up the tree and get a nice, shiny helios.

I checked the bonuses,

Role Bonus +10 Virus Strength to Relic and Data Analyzers (so far so good)

Gallente Frigate Skill Bonus:

5% Bonus to small hybrid turret damage per level (interesting, I thought, some options there)

Then I saw 10% bonus to Scout Drone Thermal damage per level!!! (woot I thought, I'm going to like this)

so then I checked the bandwidth and the drone bay size and saw that I could fit just 1 drone. 1 Hobgoblin II to take advantage of this mighty bonus, giving me a staggering 20dps with a single drone. The T1 imicus allows me to deploy 4 drones easily bringing me up to 50+ dps depending on fittings etc. so to me the 10% bonus to scout drone thermal damage seems a bit of a waste on a hull like this.

Yes it has cov ops bonuses and they are useful, but you pretty much just forced to scout in the hull, as you cant run sites with only 1 drone as it won't last too long on it's own and it will be slower at clearing them than the T1 hull.

The cov ops bonuses make this a worthwhile scout for small gangs and intel types but for explorers it's useless, likewise fi you do fit the two high slots with guns to take advantage of the 5% bonus to turret damage you can only do so if you decide not to have the cloaking device or the probe launcher leaving you with either 1 gun + 1 cloak, 1gun + 1 probe launcher or 2 guns and no cloak, no probes. In the latter configuration of 2 guns no cloak/probes there are better ships to fly around in for pure combat.

So am I missing something really obvious. Please explain it to me like I am a five year old child. Is there any reason for these combat bonuses especially the drone bonus?

Am I missing something here. I thought these things had recently been rebalanced.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#2 - 2014-01-26 23:29:58 UTC
Helios has two configurations. Well, three really. The first one is an explorer, armor tanked, primarily for low and null. Combat bonuses go unused because if you end up in combat you've already ****** up. Second fit is a shield tanked explorer; ditto everything else.

The third fit though: battle Helios. It's basically bait. You lure someone in and then kill them with the worst-looking hull in the game and smear the shame across their screen as much as possible. That takes full advantage of the combat bonuses.

So no. You're not going to use all the bonuses all at once, but you do get the element of surprise in return for the pain.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#3 - 2014-01-26 23:35:13 UTC
Apart from a Battle Helios it also means that in a scout role and fit you can solo kill pods /flex
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#4 - 2014-01-27 00:16:53 UTC
Thanks for the answers guys, can you post some example fits for me so I can get my head around the design.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Myriad Blaze
Common Sense Ltd
Nulli Secunda
#5 - 2014-01-27 09:53:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Myriad Blaze
Zhilia Mann wrote:
The first one is an explorer, armor tanked, primarily for low and null. Combat bonuses go unused because if you end up in combat you've already ****** up. Second fit is a shield tanked explorer; ditto everything else.

I don't think a tank is needed on an exploration fit Helios. If you get pointed, you are dead usually and no armor and no shield mod will save you. I'd suggest to fit WCS and/or nanos. The WCS help against instalockers and cloaky campers and the nanos help to get away more quickly. The increased lock time is a bit annoying but a small price imho. Plus this leaves room to fit scanner/exploration mods in your mid slots.

Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
can you post some example fits for me so I can get my head around the design.

Fit is easy:
High slots: Cloak and Probe Launcher
Mid slots: Prop mod plus scanner mods
Low slots: 2 WCS, rest nano
Rigs: Exploration Rigs

Pro tip: don't use a Sisters Probe Launcher (use a T2 instead) ... you will get killed eventually and then you'll regret it.
Janeway84
Insane's Asylum
#6 - 2014-01-27 12:17:09 UTC
As the others said there's a few ways to fly n fit the helios, but also worth meantioning is the developers hasnt gotten around to rebalancing helios and the other t2 scout frigates yet. Big smile
So in a offensive role the imicus looks meaner with its bigger drone bay atm.
But helios has ofc its Covert ops cloaking capability wich helps it to stay relatively safe while cloaked.
Note though that smart bombs and stealth bombers launching bombs in your direction is bad for the health of your helios Blink

I used helios as both general scan boat scanning wormholes and other scan signatures.
Also works to scan down data / relic sites and hack with the apropriate tool for the site.
A combat scout to combat probe down another player ship or other player objects in space to interact with or observe Smile

My main issue with helios is i cant fit it with mwd + scanning upgrades + web + warp disruption + lowslots dc2 , Eanm2 and drone dmg mod 2 without tearing out my scan mods and fit Cpu overclocking rigs instead..
wich then would make it slower with scanning P
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2014-01-27 14:56:36 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:

So am I missing something really obvious. Please explain it to me like I am a five year old child.

I will put this in the simplest way possible.

The ship you are looking for is the Astero.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#8 - 2014-01-27 15:14:49 UTC
Myriad Blaze wrote:
Pro tip: don't use a Sisters Probe Launcher (use a T2 instead) ... you will get killed eventually and then you'll regret it.


Only if you're bad/unlucky. That said the bonus is rather small if you can fit the t2 one. Its a bit more worth it if the alternative is t1.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#9 - 2014-01-27 15:40:14 UTC
Myriad Blaze wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
The first one is an explorer, armor tanked, primarily for low and null. Combat bonuses go unused because if you end up in combat you've already ****** up. Second fit is a shield tanked explorer; ditto everything else.

I don't think a tank is needed on an exploration fit Helios. If you get pointed, you are dead usually and no armor and no shield mod will save you. I'd suggest to fit WCS and/or nanos. The WCS help against instalockers and cloaky campers and the nanos help to get away more quickly. The increased lock time is a bit annoying but a small price imho. Plus this leaves room to fit scanner/exploration mods in your mid slots.


I keep forgetting that I'm the only one that fits for smartbombs on gates. Each to their own I suppose.

But yeah, if you get caught in a site and you aren't on the ball enough to be entering warp you're going to die. No debate there.
Praxis Ginimic
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2014-01-27 15:53:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Praxis Ginimic
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Helios has two configurations. Well, three really. The first one is an explorer, armor tanked, primarily for low and null. Combat bonuses go unused because if you end up in combat you've already ****** up. Second fit is a shield tanked explorer; ditto everything else.

The third fit though: battle Helios. It's basically bait. You lure someone in and then kill them with the worst-looking hull in the game and smear the shame across their screen as much as possible. That takes full advantage of the combat bonuses.

So no. You're not going to use all the bonuses all at once, but you do get the element of surprise in return for the pain.



Don't forget the anti-exploration fit. Cloak/probe, double scramble, web, dda's & the only drone you need. I have pissed off soooooo many explorers this way. You get the loot without the annoyance of having to play the ridiculous mini game and you get to kill stuff too. Its really the best sort of exploration
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#11 - 2014-01-27 15:55:25 UTC
Helios truely shines fitted for chainmapping, as insane agility and 5 mids are an amazing combo.

so, expanded probe launcher II, covops cloak, 3 pinpointing arrays, a rangefinder, a mwd, 2 nanos and a coproc + 2 grav processors.

Best chainmapper to find anywhere.



Wouldn't bother fitting a scram, covert ops are just no combat ships, unlike SBs. Any Bonus besides +scanstrength/+virusstrength is pun anyways.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#12 - 2014-01-27 16:18:23 UTC
Praxis Ginimic wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Helios has two configurations. Well, three really. The first one is an explorer, armor tanked, primarily for low and null. Combat bonuses go unused because if you end up in combat you've already ****** up. Second fit is a shield tanked explorer; ditto everything else.

The third fit though: battle Helios. It's basically bait. You lure someone in and then kill them with the worst-looking hull in the game and smear the shame across their screen as much as possible. That takes full advantage of the combat bonuses.

So no. You're not going to use all the bonuses all at once, but you do get the element of surprise in return for the pain.



Don't forget the anti-exploration fit. Cloak/probe, double scramble, web, dda's & the only drone you need. I have pissed off soooooo many explorers this way. You get the loot without the annoyance of having to play the ridiculous mini game and you get to kill stuff too. Its really the best sort of exploration


Plus a shot a a sisters probe launcher drop. You don't get those out of the minigame.
Myriad Blaze
Common Sense Ltd
Nulli Secunda
#13 - 2014-01-27 16:36:25 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
I keep forgetting that I'm the only one that fits for smartbombs on gates. Each to their own I suppose.

I haven't seen many smartbombing battleships lately (except for a firewall, but that's another story) but I have seen quite a few ships capable of instalocking... most likely a development in response of the nullification of ceptors.

You have to decide at some point. And from what I experienced so far I believe there is greater risk to die from a fast locking ship than getting killed by a bomb or smartbomber.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#14 - 2014-01-27 17:44:15 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
So am I missing something really obvious. Please explain it to me like I am a five year old child. Is there any reason for these combat bonuses especially the drone bonus?

Am I missing something here. I thought these things had recently been rebalanced.
In addition to all the other great advice in this thread, the drone makes the Helios the only CovOps capable of defending itself in a "standard" exploration fit. Most of the time it won't make a difference, and you'll still die horribly. But sometimes you'll get jumped by somebody else in their "battle fit" CovOps and you'll be able to drive them off or in some cases even kill them. (And yes, I have had experience doing it. Mind you, I don't make a habit of trying to repeat it.)
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#15 - 2014-01-27 17:45:42 UTC
Thanks for all of the replies guys, I've got a good idea what to do with this ship now, so I won't simply but it back on the market. It's good to know that they haven't been rebalanced yet though so maybe there's hope of more drone bay and bandwidth being added later on.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2014-01-27 18:38:19 UTC
Bottom line is that Covert ops were never intended as combat ships. They are all around the same idea. For example if you look at an anathema, they get a bonus to rockets. If you fit similarily (cloak, probe launcher) you have 1 high slot left for a rocket launcher, which will do around 25dps.

Personally I don't expect them to change much. They are one of the few classes of ships that actually fill their scout role fairly well as is. especially with the addition of the SOE ships that do the cloaky combat thing better.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#17 - 2014-01-27 18:47:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Why does the helios have a combat bonus?

Ask these folks:

Taranis vs Helios
Slicer vs Helios
Arty Wolf vs Helios
Autocannon Wolf vs Helios
Harpy vs Helios
Jaguar vs Helios
Thrasher vs Helios
Sabre vs Helios

Typical Battle Helios Fit:
[Helios, ExplorationHelios]
Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

1MN Afterburner II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S

Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I

Hobgoblin II x1

Sometimes you use 2x webs if you are taking on fast targets.
Meyr
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
OnlyFleets.
#18 - 2014-01-29 05:07:22 UTC
Bottom line is, yes, for a Cov Ops, the Helios has some truly odd bonuses that only make sense when you don't use it as a Cov Ops.

Yeah, that doesn't make much sense to me, either.
Praxis Ginimic
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2014-01-29 19:32:51 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Why does the helios have a combat bonus?

Ask these folks:

Taranis vs Helios
Slicer vs Helios
Arty Wolf vs Helios
Autocannon Wolf vs Helios
Harpy vs Helios
Jaguar vs Helios
Thrasher vs Helios
Sabre vs Helios

Typical Battle Helios Fit:
[Helios, ExplorationHelios]
Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

1MN Afterburner II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S

Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I

Hobgoblin II x1

Sometimes you use 2x webs if you are taking on fast targets.



Impressive, but wouldn't you get better results out of an imicus?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#20 - 2014-01-29 19:42:51 UTC
Praxis Ginimic wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Why does the helios have a combat bonus?

Ask these folks:

Taranis vs Helios
Slicer vs Helios
Arty Wolf vs Helios
Autocannon Wolf vs Helios
Harpy vs Helios
Jaguar vs Helios
Thrasher vs Helios
Sabre vs Helios

Typical Battle Helios Fit:
[Helios, ExplorationHelios]
Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

1MN Afterburner II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S

Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I

Hobgoblin II x1

Sometimes you use 2x webs if you are taking on fast targets.



Impressive, but wouldn't you get better results out of an imicus?


Killmails with the imicus might be more impressive, but it isn't better suited for fishing: An Imicus doesn't have a weapons bonus to guns or drones, and only 1 highslot to actually fit a weapon. It also lacks the 5th midslot, which is very important for disabling an opponent with EWAR.
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