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High Sec War Deccing is Utterly Broken.

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2014-01-26 03:45:46 UTC
Michele Bachmann wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

1. Characters can enjoy the same immunity from wardecs that NPC characters have through simply having ready corps to transfer to during wars. This method is already used. Your solution does nothing to address this. If having decs on corps that are empty save holding characters is enough for you to count this as a success because the dec still exists you may want to revise the scope of your goals to something more meaningful. Aggressors could in theory follow the characters fleeing the dec, though with a still relatively small number of premade corps I think it unlikely we will see them following through.

2. Loopholes are not exploits until officially declared so, and as evidenced by the current state of wardecs, it's very likely not all will be considered as such


The player owned corporations that people transfer to are subject to the same mechanics as the player owned corp that they just left. Whether or not that corp will be wardecced is up to whomever. There is no way for me to tell if wardecs will be handed out with the frequency that you seem to suggest. If the scope of the agressing party is that focused that they feel they should wardec every corp that is their prerogative and is perfectly acceptable under current mechanics. Now should that target drop into an NPC corp the agressor's game is disrupted and he is resorted to pursue with guaranteed punishment. My point is that everyone should be on a level playing field after a certain point.

They are on the same level, only as things stand a character can keep aggressors from flushing isk trying to pursue them when they have no intention of allowing the wardec to affect them. Hence the flaw with your plan. You created a wardecable group which no target of value would ever stay in and at the same time haven't addressed evasion. As stated before, if trying to wardec a character is the only measure of success and evasion is still trivial, the dec is still meaningless. If a target keeps leaving wardec'd corps the end result of only being able to take acts that guarantee punishment is still there and is more expensive.

Basically ignoring counters does not a good plan make.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2014-01-26 03:47:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Benny Ohu
Tydeth Gilitae wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:

some of those suggestions may not have been entirely serious
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Logan Revelore wrote:
Every corporation should have a security division to deal with enemies. If you don't, then you're just asking for it.

Wars in eve being what they are, getting a security division is kinda ill advised since fighting back has no incentive.

i agree, it is objectively better for carebear/mission/indy corps to drop to npc, remake the corp or just never leave npc corps in the first place since everything npc is better than player-owned anyway

so right now wardecs are pointless

this is a horrible fault of eve online. player-owned pocos are a step in the right direction, we can only hope that trend continues

e: well. i guess wardecs involving pocos are not pointless, then, are they benny

no other benny they certainly are not
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#43 - 2014-01-26 03:50:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Felicity Love
Mechanics are fine... but the lack of cooperation from targets who cower in shame to avoid the honourable choice and undock, well, that's just not sporting.

Sad times, my friends, when the mere thought of being dec'd is so overwhelming that many pilots experience some sort of seizure and then lay catatonic on the floors of their CQ's for days.

A pilot's destiny and immortality is written in the stars... unless you remain docked, then it's just the "dishonor of whimpering like a coward in a puddle of your own ****".

Truly, EVE is dying.

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Tuttomenui II
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2014-01-26 03:53:07 UTC
Neutrals aiding other players at war getting suspect flag would be funny.
Michele Bachmann
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2014-01-26 03:53:17 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

They are on the same level, only as things stand a character can keep aggressors from flushing isk trying to pursue them when they have no intention of allowing the wardec to affect them. Hence the flaw with your plan. You created a wardecable group which no target of value would ever stay in and at the same time haven't addressed evasion. As stated before, if trying to wardec a character is the only measure of success and evasion is still trivial, the dec is still meaningless. If a target keeps leaving wardec'd corps the end result of only being able to take acts that guarantee punishment is still there and is more expensive.

Basically ignoring counters does not a good plan make.



They are not equal for the fact that they are not exposed to the same mechanics.

Value/meaning of a war target is not determined by me. To others it might be worth something, I want to allow them to try to get their money's worth.

On your point of evasion, if an agressor is persistent enough they can pursue a target endlessly even with guaranteed punishment by concord.

EVE should not have safe havens for those wishing to duck out on the same mechanics that everyone else is subject to.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2014-01-26 04:04:26 UTC
Michele Bachmann wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

They are on the same level, only as things stand a character can keep aggressors from flushing isk trying to pursue them when they have no intention of allowing the wardec to affect them. Hence the flaw with your plan. You created a wardecable group which no target of value would ever stay in and at the same time haven't addressed evasion. As stated before, if trying to wardec a character is the only measure of success and evasion is still trivial, the dec is still meaningless. If a target keeps leaving wardec'd corps the end result of only being able to take acts that guarantee punishment is still there and is more expensive.

Basically ignoring counters does not a good plan make.



They are not equal for the fact that they are not exposed to the same mechanics.

Value/meaning of a war target is not determined by me. To others it might be worth something, I want to allow them to try to get their money's worth.

On your point of evasion, if an agressor is persistent enough they can pursue a target endlessly even with guaranteed punishment by concord.

EVE should not have safe havens for those wishing to duck out on the same mechanics that everyone else is subject to.

The only mechanic NPC corp are not exposed to is the clearly broken and trivial to avoid wardec mechanic. If you want to argue that the game is enriched by having aggressors shovel isk into holes chasing evaders while others create more socially isolated corps to avoid the now insanely prohibitive NPC corps, which would also be decable thus taking away the only thing that could justify that cost, all while not looking at the real issue with wardecs, I can genuinely say that for the health of the game I hope that neither you nor anyone as similarly shortsighted gets a seat on the CSM.

Even your statement of dec'ers getting their money's worth doesn't hold in the face of your insistence that it's ok that any one wardec fee can be invalidated without issue because a subsequent one might work.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2014-01-26 04:04:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
Just a short note to any newer players tempted to take the rather juvenile advice in this thread seriously.

Wardecs against small newbie indy and mining corps are not made for the "fun of the challenging and awesome PvP" they are made firstly for easy ISK and secondly to pad the killmail list of so-so PvPers with easy kills.

To this end:

a) absolutely NEVER pay the ransom, word will get around your an easy mark
b) do not carry on normal ops in mining ships and haulers you are just giving them free killmails
c) do not whine on local or forums you will just attract more unwanted attention

What you can do ...

- If you want to have some fun fight them in cheap disposable frigates just for the hell of it, try not to use a clone with pricey implants in case you get podded. Do not expect to win, that is not going to happen but you may have fun and learn a bit. Do not use a shiney ship, htat just gives them a killmail with more streetcred when they kill it.

- ignore all the baiting and trolling about cowards from people who will happily kill you with a char with 4 times your experience in a far better ship, if it suits you better to play an alt for a while or even have a week off to spend more time with the wife and kids do it

- if you really want to fight them, and your all only new players, you may want to consider hiring mercs but be careful as not all mercs are necesarily trustworthy and they may turn on you or rip you off :D
Michele Bachmann
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2014-01-26 04:08:01 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
[quote=Michele Bachmann]
The only mechanic NPC corp are not exposed to is the clearly broken and trivial to avoid wardec mechanic. If you want to argue that the game is enriched by having aggressors shovel isk into holes chasing evaders while others create more socially isolated corps to avoid the now insanely prohibitive NPC corps, which would also be decable thus taking away the only thing that could justify that cost, all while not looking at the real issue with wardecs, I can genuinely say that for the health of the game I hope that neither you nor anyone as similarly shortsighted gets a seat on the CSM.

Even your statement of dec'ers getting their money's worth doesn't hold in the face of your insistence that it's ok that any one wardec fee can be invalidated without issue because a subsequent one might work.



Can you not agree that everyone who plays this game should be subject to the same mechanics regardless of what corporation they are in?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2014-01-26 04:11:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Michele Bachmann wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

The only mechanic NPC corp are not exposed to is the clearly broken and trivial to avoid wardec mechanic. If you want to argue that the game is enriched by having aggressors shovel isk into holes chasing evaders while others create more socially isolated corps to avoid the now insanely prohibitive NPC corps, which would also be decable thus taking away the only thing that could justify that cost, all while not looking at the real issue with wardecs, I can genuinely say that for the health of the game I hope that neither you nor anyone as similarly shortsighted gets a seat on the CSM.

Even your statement of dec'ers getting their money's worth doesn't hold in the face of your insistence that it's ok that any one wardec fee can be invalidated without issue because a subsequent one might work.

Can you not agree that everyone who plays this game should be subject to the same mechanics regardless of what corporation they are in?
That runs afoul your suggested NPC corp membership fee, but that aside, for the reasons I've stated in prior posts, fix wardecs first then make NPC corps decable. In that order. Trying to treat a symptom while the larger issue exists just creates more issues and unwanted isolated gameplay.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#50 - 2014-01-26 04:12:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Michele Bachmann wrote:
As a hopeful CSM9 candidate who specializes in these kinds of issues these concerns raise some interesting questions and ideas.

I agree that the current wardeccing system is broken. Although not in the ways you listed.


No, it's broken because of a great number of simple truths about the game generally and high sec specifically, starting with the fact that player corporations are borderline meaningless, not least because alts exist. The only thing that enforcing a high tax rate on NPC corps did is drive a lot of veteran players into tax shelter corps, leaving the newbies to commingle with the most risk-averse players in the game (with the notable exception of CAS, detailed below).

Michele Bachmann wrote:
In my opinion, dropping into an NPC corp that cannot be wardecced is unacceptable for characters of a certain age or skillpoint level. After a period of 6 months or x number of skillpoints that a character has accrued, that character should be placed into an NPC corp that can be wardecced.


So the veteran crew at Center for Advanced Studies should be taken away from the newbies who they lead on regular roams through low sec and null sec and placed in a ghetto so that you can shoot at them when you want to? What good does that do?

If anything, I'd like to see more of what CAS is doing. Much more.

Michele Bachmann wrote:
Another broken mechanic in the wardec system is assets in space, namely, POCOs. Currently if a corp is under a wardec they cannot transfer pocos to another corp.


How is this in the least bit more hypocritical than having a corp full of PVP alts dec an industrial or newbie corp while the deccers' PVE alts bear it up with no consequences? Or, how is it more hypocritical than having the industrialists all log in on their alts and ignore the dec for the duration? You think characters matter. They don't (more precisely, they only matter to newbies). Neither do corporations. Solve those dilemmas, and you solve wardecs. Well, at least you solve the solvable problems.

[EDIT: Or, you could look at the fact that CONCORD is a dumb, ham-fisted solution--but then try to come up with a better one that isn't so nuanced that it leaves new players disoriented and misled--CONCORD's bad enough at that.]

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2014-01-26 04:16:52 UTC
Michele Bachmann wrote:
Can you not agree that everyone who plays this game should be subject to the same mechanics regardless of what corporation they are in?

in seriousness, no, if people don't want to be decced that's fine

but there's no proper disadvantage from running and hiding and no advantage to staying and fighting

until this is worked out there's no reason to try and force players into fighting when they don't want to

even then, npc corps should never be deccable. there just needs to be advantage to staying in a player corp and advantage to deploying pocos and starbases over npc services
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2014-01-26 04:19:39 UTC
Dersen Lowery, you are on my list of least-awful GD posters
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#53 - 2014-01-26 04:19:51 UTC
Alright OP, have it your way. From now on guys, bypass the warning a wardec gives these guys and just gank them.




Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Michele Bachmann
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2014-01-26 04:21:10 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

That runs afoul your suggested NPC corp membership fee, but that aside, for the reasons I've stated in prior posts, fix wardecs first then make NPC corps decable. In that order. Trying to treat a symptom while the larger issue exists just creates more issues and unwanted isolated gameplay.


can you point out to me where i said there was a membership fee for these wardeccable NPC corps?

Can you not agree that everyone who plays this game should be subject to the same mechanics regardless of what corporation you are in?
Kate 'on
DevonCorp
#55 - 2014-01-26 04:23:42 UTC
Veronica Felix wrote:
War deccing is broken, almost to a surreal extent. In high sec, small industrial corps are war decced repeatedly for no other purpose than to cause grief. The ward deccers--if looking at their killboards are any indication--are cowards, never attacking a low sec corp, or even the more potent high sec corps.

War dec after war dec after war dec. It has all become rather tiresome, even disheartening. My corp alone has endured a war dec almost every other week since the early summer.

Some--most, perhaps-- war deccing corps will issue war decs against multiple corps at once: XXX XXXX just issued war decs against 23 corps and alliances simultaneously. Why? For the lulz, and to generate a superficially more attractive resume, I imagine. Of course, all the corps that they are 'fighting' (do they ever leave major hubs?) are small industrial corps.

Some suggestions:

--No corp/alliance should be permitted to issue more than three concurrent war declarations.

--The aggressor must deposit into a CONCORD trust account enough isk to cover a war for a month of renewals. As it is now, a corp issues a war dec, and after a week, the war is usually allowed to lapse. Wars should not just lapse because the aggressor loses interest; the aggressor must either surrender with consequences, or be forced to pay repeatedly for a month for the continuance of the war.

--The 'alts' of the war deccing corporations should all be identified to the defenders. As it stands now, any single war deccer is accompanied by two neutral logistics alts who suddenly appear 80 kms away, with repping so over-powered that an Atron can destroy a Dominix.

--War dec fees are too low by a factor of ten. Only 50 million isk to dec an entire alliance for a week is nonsensical.

Hiring mercenaries is not an answer. Joining larger alliances is not the answer. HTFU is not the answer. High sec war deccing is broken, and it is used primarily to abuse, grief, and harass others.

Summary: High sec war deccing is broken. It is an instrument for griefers to constantly harass industrialists, miners, and missioners. Unable to survive the travails of low and null, they repeatedly war dec those least inclined to fight. War decs should have strict limits and significant consequences for the aggressors.



Is this a serious post?

Either way, how you havent figured out you can just leave corp and recreate it for 5m (they are out the 50) means you are basically too incompetent to run a corporation.

I'm going to guess those minerals are free also?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2014-01-26 04:26:29 UTC
Michele Bachmann wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

That runs afoul your suggested NPC corp membership fee, but that aside, for the reasons I've stated in prior posts, fix wardecs first then make NPC corps decable. In that order. Trying to treat a symptom while the larger issue exists just creates more issues and unwanted isolated gameplay.


can you point out to me where i said there was a membership fee for these wardeccable NPC corps?

Sure:
Michele Bachmann wrote:
After a period of 6 months or x number of skillpoints that a character has accrued, that character should be placed into an NPC corp that can be wardecced. These NPC corps should be divided by race and should cost an almost prohibitive amount (upwards of 500mil/week)

Michele Bachmann wrote:

Can you not agree that everyone who plays this game should be subject to the same mechanics regardless of what corporation you are in?
I already answered this. And really, thinking about it, since the mechanics of an NPC corp prevent players from holding game granted authority or space assets, they can't be unified anyways. So to answer further, they can't have the same mechanics and thus the question is moot.
Abla Tive
#57 - 2014-01-26 04:29:10 UTC
I find the simplest way to avoid a wardec is to not undock.

If I run out of entertaining things to do while docked,
I stop logging in and play something else till the week is over.

Simple really.

Although it is kind of strange to be discouraged from playing the game.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#58 - 2014-01-26 04:32:52 UTC
Michele Bachmann wrote:
Can you not agree that everyone who plays this game should be subject to the same mechanics regardless of what corporation you are in?


Not all of them, surely, or there is no difference between an NPC corp and a PC corp, and therefore no incentive to ever create a PC corp--unless you're moving out of high sec, anyway. It's hard to claim sov in the name of Hedion University.

If you're serious about a CSM run, the very best thing you could do, besides not run on the RL name of a US politician, is stop running on the frustration you feel in not being able to shoot freely at whatever you want to, and start looking at the (long) list of reasons why people--even people with nontrivial killboards--are by and large uninterested in engaging you. It's a game. You're not going to ~force~ anyone to do anything. You're also not going to get any gameplay change that allows you to dec newbie corps and shoot at day-old players with impunity. Start there.

Benny: Thanks, I guess? Twisted

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2014-01-26 04:35:00 UTC
Abla Tive wrote:
I find the simplest way to avoid a wardec is to not undock.

If I run out of entertaining things to do while docked,
I stop logging in and play something else till the week is over.

Simple really.

Although it is kind of strange to be discouraged from playing the game.

well, that's an unnecessary overreaction, it's like saying goombas discourage you playing mario

'those wardeccers want to interrupt my game - the joke's on them, i wasn't having fun anyway!'
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2014-01-26 04:36:31 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
'those wardeccers want to interrupt my game - the joke's on them, i wasn't having fun anyway!'
I must admit, I laughed quite hard at this.