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ECM (Randomness) Mechanics in other games.

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Messoroz
AQUILA INC
#41 - 2011-11-24 18:04:24 UTC
It's kind of depressing seeing how people mention ECCM is the only way to go when there's also optimal/fallof that's easily abused by nano ships and long range boats.
Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2011-11-24 18:37:04 UTC
Worpout wrote:
The only weapon against falcons is to have a 100 man fleet, and bubble it or catch it AFK uncloaked.



falcons won't like tornados much I reckon ;)

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

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Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#43 - 2011-11-24 18:54:41 UTC
Ris Dnalor wrote:
Worpout wrote:
The only weapon against falcons is to have a 100 man fleet, and bubble it or catch it AFK uncloaked.



falcons won't like tornados much I reckon ;)



I think a lot of people won't like tornados much...
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#44 - 2011-11-24 19:10:03 UTC
Worpout wrote:
The only weapon against falcons is to have a 100 man fleet, and bubble it or catch it AFK uncloaked.


35+ sensor ships makes it difficult to keep permanently, in some fleet with several ships when you see one of these and if you don't primary it...you fail.

In small gangs thou, this ship can make the difference but small fights/gangs are not the mirror of actual pvp forms, everything is about numbers so your ecm ships just go like "pouf" faster than you can spell it.
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2011-11-24 20:18:19 UTC
Guys, guys.
ECM isn't random.
Any ECM jams you 100% of the time no matter what.
Because of Falcon.
Pinaculus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2011-11-24 21:45:24 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
Guys, guys.
ECM isn't random.
Any ECM jams you 100% of the time no matter what.
Because of Falcon.

it was only a matter of time

I know sometimes it's difficult to realize just how much you spend on incidental things each month or year, but seriously, EVE is very cheap entertainment compared to most things... If you are a smoker, smoke one less pack a week and pay for EVE, with money left over to pick up a cheap bundle of flowers for the EVE widow upstairs.
AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
#47 - 2011-11-24 22:30:26 UTC
I have no problem with the randomness end of it. Just nerf the ECM strength of all ECM mods/drones 10% would probably be enough. Making the jam take effect at the end of the cycle (I believe it's that way for the drones already) might also be good.

As for Blackbirds, change their bonuses so they're forced into about 80km instead of sitting out at 110km+.

Falcons are ok as they are. 150M ISK should buy you something half-decent.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#48 - 2011-11-24 22:47:23 UTC
AkJon Ferguson wrote:
I have no problem with the randomness end of it. Just nerf the ECM strength of all ECM mods/drones 10% would probably be enough. Making the jam take effect at the end of the cycle (I believe it's that way for the drones already) might also be good.

As for Blackbirds, change their bonuses so they're forced into about 80km instead of sitting out at 110km+.

Falcons are ok as they are. 150M ISK should buy you something half-decent.


Well it's not exactly what I think about when I fly Lachesis or Arazus, uber long range point and cheap crap damps Lol
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#49 - 2011-11-24 22:50:38 UTC
I'd just like to add to those asking for counters / improvements to ECM, that there is already a ship to both improve AND counter ECM, it's called an Eos.

It sucks because it sits in the worst popular twilight zone, by not really useful for either armour or shield gangs the way it fits and the gang links work... but.... hey there it is.

Maybe one to fix in Summer Expansion, by giving it it's original drone bay and bandwidth back and making it as good with shields as it is with armor tanks. This was a popular ship once the old veterans tell me, before it was nerfed big time.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#50 - 2011-11-24 23:04:07 UTC
Some ideas to modify ECM:

- Quicker cycle time on ECM mods - 20 seconds is a long time. Make it 10?

- Increase cap usage on ECM (quicker cycle will do this) - Shutting down another ship's targeting from long range should take a lot of energy.

- ECCM could stand to be stronger.

- Alternatively, ECCM mods could shorten the duration of the jam instead. (or make it a new mod) - giving the target at least a chance to react, or forcing the Falcon to commit two modules to jam one ship.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#51 - 2011-11-24 23:21:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Ptraci
So much easier to fight the design of the ship than to actually come up with tactics to kill the ship, isn't it? It's him it's him change him nerf him, I'm not doing anything wrong, I want to do what I have always done and not change anything at all. Nerf the other guy.
Emiko Luan
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2011-11-25 02:06:16 UTC
Reilly Duvolle wrote:
Well to be frank, chance based ability to prevent targeting solutions altogether is pretty much the only thing left after the Gallente got the ability to reduce sensor effectiveness through their remote sensor damps - which makes sense given their short range combat profile.

You COULD ofc argue that the EWAR mechanics should be revamped in its entirety, both to remove chance based mehanics and to give the races EWAR capabilities that would better reflect their race and their historical struggle against their respective arch enemies.

The Caldari should for example have a drone control jammer to affect the control range of their Gallente enemies drones, and target painters to increase the effectiveness of their missiles.

The Gallente should have remote sensor dampeners to force their enemies closer and a missile defence jammer that affected the accuracy of incomming missiles.

The Minmatar should have the ability to conduct energy warfare against the cap hungry beasts of the Amarr with nos/neuts, and hold their slow moving enemies in place with long points.

The Amarr should have tracking disruptors to reduce the range of minmatar gunbased shirmish ships and long webs to slow down their fast moving enemies in face of the Amarr armored behemoths.


This post is a gem and should be looked at. though drone control seems a bit too focused. TDs affect 3 weapon types afterall, SDs affect all long range ships, TPs affect every weapon etc..

+welcome to my world+ http://emikochan13.wordpress.com http://emikochan13.deviantart.com
DHB WildCat
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#53 - 2011-11-25 03:03:19 UTC  |  Edited by: DHB WildCat
I find it very funny the answer for most people in this thread to ecm.

TD's = TE's or TC's

Damps = SB's

Nuets = cap boosters

ECM = more people and fleets (lol) because lets be honest.......... i had a vindi with a full grail set and an eccm in the mid.... sensor strength of over 130. A flacon laughed at me as he jammed be 7 out of 10 cycles. ECM is fine, but ECCM needs a major BOOST!
Grarr Dexx
Now Look What You've Made Me Do
#54 - 2011-11-25 03:10:39 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Minigin wrote:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/news/inside-design-dodge

i think some compelling arguments are raised as to why game mechanics focused on randomness should be phased out of competitive games.


I don't read it as an argument for removing randomness, but rather just one for removing dodge from LoL (finally!). They're still keeping crits as random, for example.

The arguments for and against randomness in general are rather more extensive and complex, but as a general rule I'd lean towards preferring to use something more deterministic, both because randomness makes planning less reliable, and because people's instinctive understanding of statistics/randomness is pretty low.

(For a game aiming to be as competitive as LoL is, I'd not be surprised to see them moving towards eliminating randomness in other mechanics too, and falling back on "every third hit" sort of mechanics where there's a need for variable outcomes. If you look at SC2, for example, I think the only random roll in the entire game is for starting positions, and after that everything is deterministic.)


8% true dmg every three shots with 2.5 shots fired per seconds so balanced, especially when combined with ******* tumble and an ult that adds an invisibility component to the tumble.
Lili Lu
#55 - 2011-11-25 04:46:10 UTC
Reilly Duvolle wrote:
Well to be frank, chance based ability to prevent targeting solutions alltogehter is pretty much the only thing left after the Gallente got the ability to reduce sensor effectveness through their remote sensor damps - which makes sense given their short range combat profile.

You COULD ofc argue that the EWAR mechanics should be revamped in its entirety, both to remove chance based mehanics and to give the races EWAR capabilities that would better reflect their race and their historical struggle against their respective arch enemies.

The Caldari should for example have a drone control jammer to affect the control range of their Gallente enemies drones, and target painters to increase the effectiveness of their missiles.

The Gallente should have remote sensor dampeners to force their enemies closer and a missile defence jammer that affected the accuracy of incomming missiles.

The Minmatar should have the ability to conduct energy warfare against the cap hungry beasts of the Amarr with nos/neuts, and hold their slow moving enemies in place with long points.

The Amarr should have tracking disruptors to reduce the range of minmatar gunbased shirmish ships and long webs to slow down their fast moving enemies in face of the Amarr armored behemoths.

The racial ews make more sense when you view them as against pirate factions instead of as against the empire faction enemies (still agree with your post that it's sorta backward).
Leaving ecm out, as it is an odd duck and affects everything,
Gallente damps are forcing Serpentis to have to get close before doing damage. They essentially force Serps to fit Blasters.
Amarr TDs are forcing Sansha/Blood Raider to get close to apply damage as well since they are turret ships.
Minmatar are applying painters to fast moving angels to make them easier to hit.

Oh look we have some dev monitoring of this thread, but of course the gameplay issue is sidestepped and just some philosophical banter about randomness Roll Hey, do you guys ever monitor S&M? Because you never reply there. There's another thread there on the same gameplay issue if you're at all interested Here it be
Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
#56 - 2011-11-25 07:22:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Reilly Duvolle
Lili Lu wrote:
The racial ews make more sense when you view them as against pirate factions instead of as against the empire faction enemies (still agree with your post that it's sorta backward).
Leaving ecm out, as it is an odd duck and affects everything,
Gallente damps are forcing Serpentis to have to get close before doing damage. They essentially force Serps to fit Blasters.
Amarr TDs are forcing Sansha/Blood Raider to get close to apply damage as well since they are turret ships.
Minmatar are applying painters to fast moving angels to make them easier to hit.


Actually, the current state of affairs makes most sense if you view them from an introspective perspective. Nations at peace will often develop their capabilities in order to counter mirror images of their own forces (because they regard them as superior) instead of countering specific threats.

Take the Amarr for example, they use energy warfare and tracking disruptors - which makes sense if you think you will be fighting a mirror image enemy - cap hungry ships with almost exclusivly turret based DPS.

But the prereq is actually peace. In peacetime you dont know who you will fight - and you prepare to fight some imaginary enemy that looks a lot like yourself. In EVE this makes no sense however - given the lore and the eternal struggle the four empires have been involved in for the last 200 years. In EVE it would make infinitely more sense for the empires to have developed specific counters to their actual enemies capabilities.

As for the pirate factions - yes I sorta see the point, but fighting pirates would be considered a mere nuisance compared to the life and death struggles between the Gallente and Caldari for example.
Amro One
One.
#57 - 2011-11-25 09:11:39 UTC
To counter falcons is easy,

Have a celestic of maulus/keres in fleet with 2x rang damps.

OMFG, I know i am a genius right. No falcon pilot would primary these ships.

You idiots need to think more.
Hemmo Paskiainen
#58 - 2011-11-25 10:31:19 UTC
Arazu´s and expecialy rapiers are more common than the falcon. Should they be nerfed too.. no ofc not.. why? Points and Webs are more common used and out a pshycology point of view people are more used to when a rapier prevent them from getting back to a gate. Ecm is fine as it is now. Expecialy after the optimal range nerf. get close to a falcon and u will see its very hard to get a jam up (personal experiance). In the victims eyes a falcon is more evil and rare, its like the big bad pokémon thats actualy crap when using the right pokéballs. The best thing about eve is the sandbox thing where strategy is really important. I can solo falcons in a sabre even when they have 2 minni jams.

If relativity equals time plus momentum, what equals relativity, if the momentum is minus to the time?
Molly Molotov
Doomheim
#59 - 2011-11-25 10:40:54 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
So much easier to fight the design of the ship than to actually come up with tactics to kill the ship, isn't it? It's him it's him change him nerf him, I'm not doing anything wrong, I want to do what I have always done and not change anything at all. Nerf the other guy.


Ideas,

Take manual control over the guns and aim them at falcon without a lock.

Activate a giant magnet that attaches it to your ship (tractor beams don't work).

Overheat ECM burst, cloak, sneak attack from stealth
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#60 - 2011-11-25 10:59:05 UTC
Fly a Tengu. Don't get jammed. Kill Failcon from extreme range.

Fly a Raven. Don't get jammed. Kill Failcon from extreme range.

Fly a Claw. Don't get jammed. Kill Falcon in his face.

Fly an Apocalypse. Don't get jammed. Kill Failcon from extreme range.

Fly a T2 sentry Dominix. Get jammed. Kill falcon from extreme range.

See, if you have a falcon capable of jamming N ships, all you need is N+1 ships capable of hitting the Falcon. You don't have to kill it, just scare it off the field. That will remove the Falcon for about a minute while it warps off then returns to the field.

You can reduce the chance of getting jammed by using ECCM. You can reduce the impact of getting jammed by fitting sensor boosters with resolution scripts.

The best part about flying ECM ships is the number of tears you can get. Other EWAR doesn't bother people: they'll keep spraying their ammunition into space with gay abandon when you have disrupted their tracking to the point that they can't hit the broad side of a Titan at point-blank range — they won't' care because they're still making fancy noises and shooting pretty lights into the darkness — but you get one jam off in a five minute fight, suddenly they're posting on the forums to complain about how overpowered ECM is.

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