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Tier 1 Battlecruisers

Author
grazer gin
Raving Rednecks
#21 - 2011-11-23 23:26:51 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Quote:
And once we are done nerfing this lets nerf everything els ohh the rifter and punisher are the best frig they need a nerf too and then lets nerf all of eve down to the point where its only a ibis and a civi rail gun and you know what i get you still cry nerf.


Umm, how about because the Rifter doesn't obsolete every other frigate? Idiot. Try actually thinking about the problem rather than making stupid generalisations.

Besides, the comparison you made there has a completely different context to the matter at hand.

Then again I wouldn't expect much else from a moron that can't understand the difference between "all the same" and "situationally better".

Quote:
They should be to cruisers what destroyers are to frigates.


To an extent they are. Higher sig radius, better DPS, but still capable of swatting the size below them. The big difference however is that BCs actually have decent tank to go with their mobility and firepower - something destroyers currently don't.

Thankfully it seems CCP have the right idea with the new tier 3s, making them trade tank and point defence for their firepower.


Would you like your mummy now you total elitist idiot
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#22 - 2011-11-23 23:50:34 UTC
Quote:
Would you like your mummy now you total elitist idiot


Oh look, still nothing resembling a valid point.
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#23 - 2011-11-24 02:58:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Fronkfurter McSheebleton
I say give the Tier 1's a 2% bonus to their racial gang link per level. Would give people a reason to actually use them, without buffing them to Tier 2 level.

thhief ghabmoef

Goose99
#24 - 2011-11-24 03:12:31 UTC
Give t1 bcs 16 small guns.Cool
Kilobar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#25 - 2011-11-24 03:17:43 UTC
Hey :-) I had an idea for an EWAR BC in the ideas forum. You have some excellent ideas here. I lol'd at a mining BC but a heavy log I ship or ewar ship is a very nice idea. I also really like the idea of a scout BC. I just hope CCP does something with them because I'm going to miss my brutix when the tier 3 comes out. There are still many niches that need filling though.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2011-11-24 07:27:00 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Don't buff tier 1s, nerf tier 2s. They're way too good for their price and the last thing we need is more of them flying around.



They did, they are called Tornado and Oracle, and they are going to be quite capable of knocking the t2 BC down a rung.
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#27 - 2011-11-24 08:59:35 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Don't buff tier 1s, nerf tier 2s. They're way too good for their price and the last thing we need is more of them flying around.



They did, they are called Tornado and Oracle, and they are going to be quite capable of knocking the t2 BC down a rung.


Only if they start at range. Its way too easy for another BC to get under their guns.

On the Tier 1 BC, just give them all one extra slot and a corresponding boost to grid/cpu. The Prophacy needs its bonuses fixed.

And not to beat a dead horse, bit the fact that ALL FOUR races have at least one of their BCs regularly fit projectiles is another symptom of the disease/utopia that is minmitar. ;)
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2011-11-24 09:02:27 UTC
King Rothgar wrote:
And there is no disputing that a vagabond, ishtar, zealot or cerberus has an overwhelming speed/agility advantage over even the quickest tier 2 BC's. The recons can claim the same too. Even CS's have their place.


Can't be arsed to check, but I'm pretty sure that a sensibly-fit Hurricane can be faster and more agile than most T1 cruisers and HACs, let alone recons.
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#29 - 2011-11-24 10:01:27 UTC
You really should check such things.

Nano-cane (1x nano): 2x TE, 2x gryo, DCII): 1434m/s, 10.2s align
Vagabond (1x nano): 2717m/s, 6.9s align
Cerb (1x nano): 1505m/s, 6.8s align
Curse (2x nano): 1703m/s, 7.8s align
Lachesis (no nano's but shield tanked): 1469m/s, 10.6s align
Rapier (no nano's but shield tanked): 1643m/s, 9.9s align time

Any questions?

As for them being too good for their price, I don't think so. A fitted BC costs about 75M isk currently, a fitted geddon costs about 160M and an abaddon around 250M. A vagabond will run you around 150-160M fitted. The reason they are and always have been so popular is their versatility. BS's are good at killing BS's and BC's but aren't good for much else. BC's are good at killing everything from frigates to capitals. HAC's are good at blobbing things and running away while recons are good at providing a variety of supporting roles. It's the huge list of potential targets that make BC gangs the norm and I don' think there is a way to change that. They strike that perfect balance of factors that make them the best at nothing but good at everything. The end result being ships that in a lot of ways are the best overall.

They are easily beaten however by using more specialized fleets such as brawler BS's or sniper-ish HAC's. All that said, the drake is overpowered. Or more specifically, heavy missiles are overpowered. You don't see too many complaints about HAM drakes after all do you?Blink

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]

Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#30 - 2011-11-24 14:00:15 UTC
Let's just say that I would prefer the gap between the mobilities and agilities of those HACs and recons and the Hurricane to be larger. As your figures show, the gap between the numbers for the single-nano Hurricane and non-Minmatar cruisers is frequently quite small, while adding another nano or rigs can give the Hurricane ~1550 m/s. But in any case, I'd be happy to nerf the Drake at the same time as the Hurricane.

The HAM Drake is very powerful in its niche, but there's nobody complaining about it because its close-range niche is risky and of limited flexibility, and it's easy to counter.

Stating that HMs are overpowered is an interesting one. At face value it sounds reasonable. But is the Caracal overpowered? Or the Cerberus? Hardly. This suggests that the problem isn't HMs alone, but rather the combination of HMs and Drake, probably related to the ease of fitting MWD, tank and HMLs on the Drake, since a HML Caracal has no room for a LSE without fitting mods. You could add the Tengu here too.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#31 - 2011-11-24 14:24:19 UTC
Heavy missles aren't overpowered.

The only complain realy have is the Drake and the Tengu, for having a formidable tank along with it.

on the other hand nerf them and there isn't a caldari pvp ship left shooting a missile, that can actualy make a difference.

all races have a few great ships, what hurts probably most, is that Minmatar and Caldari (drake) have them in affordable price range.

30 mil. which can be insured and about 20 mil. fitting makes you can loose quite a few against most ships.


if you should nerf any thing it would be the need for a great ship in the same price range, be that a the Drake among others should be more expensive or other cheaper.



Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#32 - 2011-11-24 14:35:31 UTC
Any balance changes to BCs need to be accompanied by a nerf to their insurance payouts, it's one of the reasons they obsolete T1 cruisers bar the Blackbird.
Lili Lu
#33 - 2011-11-24 15:21:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Knock a mid off the Drake and/or change the resist bonus - preferably both actually.
Harbinger ia basically fine, has to pick between firepower, tank and mobility, but the Prophecy needs a new niché.
Myrmidon is basically fine, possibly remove a slot or two
Hurricane knock off a turret and highslot and reduce the speed or agility slightly

But the biggest nerf that needs to happen to bring BCs in line?
Nerf insurance payouts on them.

You aren't looking at this though the way CCP looks at. You can't just knock slots off some of the ships but not others in the same class. That does create imbalance, or at the very least a valid perception of imbalance. Sometimes you get ships like the Scorpion, Domi, Myrm that have a +1 higher number of total mid and low slots but because they lose 2 high slots. And, with the tier one BCs the Cyclone always had more high slots than the others, probably because it was split weapons and bonus only applying to some of those high slots.

Regardless, any alteration to any ship has to preserve the slot parameters of the ship class. This is how CCP does it, and for a good reason that if the slot totals were often different they would face more and more valid complaints about balance. They can tweak percents on bonuses (and also btw they keep the same number of bonuses per class for the same reason) but messing with total number of slots would create bigger headaches for them and for game balance.

Any balancing opinion should keep these things in mind. It is all well and good to recognise an imbalance. But a solution cannot break these paradigms that one should not imbalance the number of slots or number of bonuses within a class of ships.

Just wanted to point this out. Carry on everyone.
kyrv
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#34 - 2011-11-24 15:53:21 UTC
Slade Hoo wrote:
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Don't buff tier 1s, nerf tier 2s. They're way too good for their price and the last thing we need is more of them flying around.


This



Did I not just get owned by a cyclone, blue pill and ec-600's in my hurricane Roll
Mei Uzzmesser
Doomheim
#35 - 2011-11-25 03:30:01 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington has been spot on in everything she has said.
Alaric Faelen
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2011-11-25 06:05:54 UTC
Quote:
Tier 1 BCs are not bad ships based on slot layout etc. - they're bad ships because tier 2s exist.

--Excellent point. I don't know why people want to make all ships essentially the same. The tier one boats are meant to be mediocre.
The real problem is the training times for each tier. These render the tier one ships all but useless because for the most part you can get into a tier two ship with another hour or two training.
The Procurer is a classic example. It's poor performance is perfectly in line with the 'bottom end' ship of the class- but a necessary stepping stone for moving to the big leagues of the class. The issue really is the time it takes to go from tier one to tier two makes that 'growing step' completely worthless.
I wouldn't change the ships, I'd change the requirements to fly them. I contend it's not that tier ones are badly designed (well most) that makes certain ships all but useless, they are only useless because in the time it takes to log off, make and eat dinner, maybe rub one out to your choice of midget erotica-- and you can be in a vastly better hull.

Yeah, that means everyone would be stuck, at least for a bit, with a crappy bottom rung ship upon starting a new ship skill. Probably unpopular, but in spirit with the game's intent. I just fear that fiddling with ships will have the net result of making them all the same- just with different window dressing for the graphics. Having them essentially the same, just with different names for their weapons and modules isn't variety- only the illusion of it.
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2011-11-25 07:58:13 UTC
Emily Poast wrote:

And not to beat a dead horse, bit the fact that ALL FOUR races have at least one of their BCs regularly fit projectiles is another symptom of the disease/utopia that is minmitar. ;)


The nerfmatard is strong in this one.
Alara IonStorm
#38 - 2011-11-25 08:12:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Alaric Faelen wrote:
It's poor performance is perfectly in line with the 'bottom end' ship of the class- but a necessary stepping stone for moving to the big leagues of the class.

Unless you got it in the morning didn't play EVE that day and slept-in the next morning because then you will be in a Retriever. Or if you happen to have Caldari Cruisers trained to 3 and put Mining Lasers on a Moa. Why a Moa and not an Osprey like you would expect me to say, well the Moa mines more then it. But hey it is almost as good as a Rail Ship and that counts for something, at least in Area's where there are no Belt Rats because then the Moa with it's Tank and 3 Drones have it over a Barrel.

I guess it has some benefit such as being able to Mine more then those tiny Mining Frigates... Oh wait those Mine more as well.

No I am being unfair, with a T2 Strip Miner and T2 Crystal it can in fact extract 2 units of ORE a minute more then a Bantam. Worthy of the name Mining Barge alright. What?

It is not a necessary step. It is a lemon.
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2011-11-25 09:42:56 UTC
Maybe a good solution would be to make insurance payout shrink the higher the tier of the ship.

You would get more iskies for the ferox then for the drake.

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#40 - 2011-11-25 10:43:38 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Don't buff tier 1s, nerf tier 2s. They're way too good for their price and the last thing we need is more of them flying around.

Yeap.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.

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