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What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

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Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#1341 - 2014-01-23 19:10:52 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Go try it. You'll probably find out in short order.

I'm serious, fit up a navpoc or a domi or something, find a mission agent, and try it.


that would not be a sensible choice for null sec. too easy to scan down and too inagile to warp out fast.

T3 with yurt should be feasible though. i'm skilling for this right now.


Cool.

So, once you do have the skills, go ahead and record your times and payouts and such, including when you have to hide or run from roams, gangs, etc.

Then go do L4s in highsec, and record the same data. Except this time you basically don't have to hide, or run. Ever.

Then tell me which one is a better way to make money.


Kaarous - you are comparing apples and oranges man.

High sec exists without ALL of that crap. It always has and it always will. If you added all of that crap to high sec it would no longer be high sec - it would be Null sec.

Payouts of L4 missions in Null Sec > Payouts of L4 missions in High Sec.

On a per mission basis. But neither CCP, carebears, nor the United States Congress can be blamed for asshats that interrupt your PVE.

Really you're muddying the comparison with the completely unknowable variables in Null Sec.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1342 - 2014-01-23 19:16:21 UTC
Quote:
Kaarous - you are comparing apples and oranges man.


No.

I'm telling someone who seemed to be attempting to equate the two that it cannot be done.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#1343 - 2014-01-23 19:16:53 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Cool.

So, once you do have the skills, go ahead and record your times and payouts and such, including when you have to hide or run from roams, gangs, etc.

Then go do L4s in highsec, and record the same data. Except this time you basically don't have to hide, or run. Ever.

Then tell me which one is a better way to make money.


i'm sorry but i can't do that. it's simply not possible for me to run missions continuously for more than two hours without being reduced to sobbing fits. that doesn't represent a good sample imo.

which is really why i'm going to try this as I run missions sporadically anyway. look at this LP/ISK tool:

http://www.evedata.org/iskPerLP.cgi

i mean, that is amazing. even if i have to juggle several missions or keep going AFK, the payouts are significantly better.

forums.  serious business.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#1344 - 2014-01-23 19:26:46 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
Kaarous - you are comparing apples and oranges man.


No.

I'm telling someone who seemed to be attempting to equate the two that it cannot be done.



The two are not equal, never have been, and never can be.

High sec does not and never will have:

Docking up because of a neutral
AFK Cloaky ******* - actually they do but nobody gives a ****.

Any interruption in the generation of ISK in Null Sec scales with the reward. It may not scale the way you like but it still scales.

In short, what needs to happen is that high sec needs to be nerfed to a point where the people living there might as well have afk cloaky ******* and have to dock up if there is a neutral. Because unless it is nerfed to that point there is no amount of reward in Null to make it more worth it and more profitable than High Sec.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#1345 - 2014-01-23 19:31:45 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
Kaarous - you are comparing apples and oranges man.


No.

I'm telling someone who seemed to be attempting to equate the two that it cannot be done.



What can and cannot be done is utterly irrelevant to this thread. What the average player does is.

You can run missions in hisec with the least amount of interruptions, that's about the only 'truth' to it. I don't care how much you can make from incursions, you can't do it 24/7. Same with any other activity in EvE. And the figures people are using, as always, are including the ammasing of total worth per hour, not including the converting the worth to actual ISK.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Good Posting
Doomheim
#1346 - 2014-01-23 19:38:36 UTC
Baltec tears not the best tears but still fun to read.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1347 - 2014-01-23 19:52:29 UTC
Good Posting wrote:
Baltec tears not the best tears but still fun to read.


I see you still misuse the word "tears".

I am simply pointing out huge game imbalances.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1348 - 2014-01-23 19:53:59 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Good Posting wrote:
Baltec tears not the best tears but still fun to read.


I see you still misuse the word "tears".

I am simply pointing out huge game imbalances.


Halp!

I am a peasant and this other peasant I know makes slightly more money doing almost the same thing but he just lives somewhere else!!!

PLZ FIX!!!!11one
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1349 - 2014-01-23 19:57:13 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Good Posting wrote:
Baltec tears not the best tears but still fun to read.


I see you still misuse the word "tears".

I am simply pointing out huge game imbalances.


Halp!

I am a peasant and this other peasant I know makes slightly more money doing almost the same thing but he just lives somewhere else!!!

PLZ FIX!!!!11one


So you tell me, why try to make money in sov null when you will make more in high sec?
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#1350 - 2014-01-23 20:05:27 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Good Posting wrote:
Baltec tears not the best tears but still fun to read.


I see you still misuse the word "tears".

I am simply pointing out huge game imbalances.


Halp!

I am a peasant and this other peasant I know makes slightly more money doing almost the same thing but he just lives somewhere else!!!

PLZ FIX!!!!11one


So you tell me, why try to make money in sov null when you will make more in high sec?


Why deal with bullshit in Null sec when you can play in high sec without that bullshit regardless of how much ISK you make?

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1351 - 2014-01-23 20:07:25 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
[So you tell me, why try to make money in sov null when you will make more in high sec?


because titans
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1352 - 2014-01-23 20:07:27 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:


Why deal with bullshit in Null sec when you can play in high sec without that bullshit regardless of how much ISK you make?


Null sec life might bother you but it doesn't bother us. So again, why should null sov have worse income for a pilot than high sec?
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#1353 - 2014-01-23 20:14:28 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:


Why deal with bullshit in Null sec when you can play in high sec without that bullshit regardless of how much ISK you make?


Null sec life might bother you but it doesn't bother us. So again, why should null sov have worse income for a pilot than high sec?


Because in Null sec people engage in bullshit. Your personal income is subject to interruption from other players and it always will be.

Again, unless you force people in high sec to dock up when a cloaky neutral ****** comes into system null sec can never be as profitable as high sec.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1354 - 2014-01-23 20:14:42 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:


Why deal with bullshit in Null sec when you can play in high sec without that bullshit regardless of how much ISK you make?


Null sec life might bother you but it doesn't bother us. So again, why should null sov have worse income for a pilot than high sec?

Honest question: What portion of nullsec do you realistically speak for? I'm sure null has it's share of weekend warriors who only want to be the hunters in nullsec and never the hunted, and as such intentionally don't do their isk making there, not because of isk differential (or lack thereof) but because effort and not being on someone else' killmail.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#1355 - 2014-01-23 20:32:06 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:


Why deal with bullshit in Null sec when you can play in high sec without that bullshit regardless of how much ISK you make?


Null sec life might bother you but it doesn't bother us. So again, why should null sov have worse income for a pilot than high sec?


Because in Null sec people engage in bullshit. Your personal income is subject to interruption from other players and it always will be.

Again, unless you force people in high sec to dock up when a cloaky neutral ****** comes into system null sec can never be as profitable as high sec.


I dunno, haven't done enough in null to verify. However in W-space, there's no contest. You could mission or incursion all day and never make as much. And of course there's no local so you have to constantly scan. Even counting closing holes with Orcas and all the surveillance you are forced to do, Hisec can never touch it.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#1356 - 2014-01-23 21:45:29 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
I dunno, haven't done enough in null to verify. However in W-space, there's no contest. You could mission or incursion all day and never make as much. And of course there's no local so you have to constantly scan. Even counting closing holes with Orcas and all the surveillance you are forced to do, Hisec can never touch it.


This brings up another issue, which is the incredible extent to which ISK making scales with skills and experience. The experience of the player running My First L4 in My First Raven that they ran far too many L3s to save up for, and for a corp whose LP store he's never even opened, is utterly and fundamentally different from the veteran chaining and blitzing L4s that his extremely high standings for a corp with high-value LP allow him to cherry-pick with his two characters in the Tengus that he had no trouble affording because of the work of his trading alts.

Or there are those famous moneymakers, Incursions, which bring in the dough when you're actually running sites, and if you're running HQs in shinies (at least in high sec). I sent a character off to try running vanguards in a T1 battleship (and my word, Incursion fits are insane), and the ISK/hr from that is, well, not so impressive. Certainly not bad, but not anything close to the numbers you see bandied around.

There's the money that Joe Newbro and his buddies make in their Drakes in a C1 or C2, and there's the money that a veteran WH dweller and his buddies make farming capital escalations in their C6.

Same goes for nullsec. I know that veterans like Jenn aSide can pull down the ISK in their dual-shiny setups, but I still remember the newbro who decided to take the plunge into deep null and join Gentleman's Agreement. He didn't have much money in high sec, so he got himself a ratting Talos, and I still found myself fronting him some ISK for his first fleet doctrine Drake. I don't think he plays anymore. Too bad; he was a nice guy, eager, willing (obviously) to dive into the deep end of the game. IMO it's poorer for his leaving.

I really don't have an answer for any of this. I think the root problem is that it takes ISK to make ISK, and ISK is a player's greatest insurance against risk, and I wonder how many players EVE loses right on the cusp where it takes a significant investment to get to the next level, just because the previous level doesn't yield enough to make that jump unless you know to go where the money is (the market) and you're good at it, and you enjoy that sort of game play.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Prince Kobol
#1357 - 2014-01-23 21:51:36 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:


Why deal with bullshit in Null sec when you can play in high sec without that bullshit regardless of how much ISK you make?


Null sec life might bother you but it doesn't bother us. So again, why should null sov have worse income for a pilot than high sec?

Honest question: What portion of nullsec do you realistically speak for? I'm sure null has it's share of weekend warriors who only want to be the hunters in nullsec and never the hunted, and as such intentionally don't do their isk making there, not because of isk differential (or lack thereof) but because effort and not being on someone else' killmail.


Over the years I have lived in a number of different places in null.

In some of those places it was next to impossible to earn any isk due to the amount of traffic, other times in other places I could easily earn 200-300 mil per day in only a few hours.

These days I do levels 5's in low sec as I find these a good way of earning isk for the level of risk involved.
Dace Onio
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1358 - 2014-01-23 22:06:36 UTC
This game offers choice, the same choice is offered to everyone, when i make my choice i sure as hell aint going to cry that player B who choose the other choice got something more usefull or was rewarded better.

Dont ***** n cry at other players choices, if your jealous enough to do so just up an go do them yourself
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1359 - 2014-01-23 22:23:52 UTC
Dace Onio wrote:
This game offers choice, the same choice is offered to everyone, when i make my choice i sure as hell aint going to cry that player B who choose the other choice got something more usefull or was rewarded better.

Dont ***** n cry at other players choices, if your jealous enough to do so just up an go do them yourself


This is the lie high sec players hide behind. What you don't understand is that many of us ARE making the choice to use the unbalanced content for example, for purposes of making isk I pretty much live in Lanngisi when I'm not doing incursions, the only reason i go to my alliances null area or ninja plex in someone elses is boredom.

It's not about choices it's about balance. The choice between "stay in high sec and make 100 mil an hour" and "go to null and maybe if im lucky make a tad over 100 mil an hour" shouldn't existin the 1st place.

In a game like EVE, the choice should be "stay in safety and maybe make some money if I'm good and lucky" or "Go into danger and have a much much better chance of getting space rich (or dying, or both). Wormhole space is the single only place in EVE that works as intended, the rest is screwed up.

Because the problem was born of CCPs unthinking additions (incursions, pirate ships in high sec, letting the sister's agents sell exploration gear in high sec after ccp added wormhole space to the game, buffing exhumers an killing gun mining but not upping the LP price of industrial implants) along with nerfing null sec (with the high end DED nerf, the forsaken hub nerf, the military upgrade system nerf and more), it's CCP that needs to fix this mess.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#1360 - 2014-01-23 22:28:09 UTC
Dace Onio wrote:
This game offers choice, the same choice is offered to everyone, when i make my choice i sure as hell aint going to cry that player B who choose the other choice got something more usefull or was rewarded better.

Dont ***** n cry at other players choices, if your jealous enough to do so just up an go do them yourself


Not empty quoting.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!