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Dev blog: More Deployables from Super Friends

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Sonho
Doomheim
#2001 - 2014-01-23 10:17:33 UTC
Jori McKie wrote:
Many of you guys does not see the strategic implications of the ESS. The ESS can be used as a strategic tool to interrupt income and force fights over it.

Alliance A vs Alliance B
Alliance A is deploying ESS in all ratting system Alliance B has, let the games begin.......
Alliance A isn't dumb and babysit all the ESS waiting for a reaction from Alliance B while Alliance B now has to stop PvE or form a fleet to get rid of all ESS in their systems.





Good luck covering all of the biggest ratting spots an alliance and maintaining that, and who thw hell fights for "rats" ?People rat for moons or space to rent .
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#2002 - 2014-01-23 10:29:00 UTC
Jori McKie wrote:
Many of you guys does not see the strategic implications of the ESS. The ESS can be used as a strategic tool to interrupt income and force fights over it.

Alliance A vs Alliance B
Alliance A is deploying ESS in all ratting system Alliance B has, let the games begin.......
Alliance A isn't dumb and babysit all the ESS waiting for a reaction from Alliance B while Alliance B now has to stop PvE or form a fleet to get rid of all ESS in their systems.
Just to make sure:
You mean this babysitting will have what difference compared to just having a gang in their system?

I mean, no doubt there are people in nullsec with IQ comparable to rocks, but I very much doubt they'd be able to undock and rat at all, so you will have the same effect with or without the ESS: Either a defense fleet forms, or it doesn't.
It's the same mistake Gizznitt makes all the time: How will this encourage fights?
And furthermore: How should this encourage living in the space we've fought for?

I still haven't seen the reasoning for either. Some people manage to concoct all manners of ways the ESS will suddenly generate all the fights that small gangs currently don't get to their hearts desire when roaming in hostile space.
I'm sorry, I don't believe in magic.

Sad
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#2003 - 2014-01-23 10:56:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Rommiee
Jori McKie wrote:
Many of you guys does not see the strategic implications of the ESS. The ESS can be used as a strategic tool to interrupt income and force fights over it.

Alliance A vs Alliance B
Alliance A is deploying ESS in all ratting system Alliance B has, let the games begin.......
Alliance A isn't dumb and babysit all the ESS waiting for a reaction from Alliance B while Alliance B now has to stop PvE or form a fleet to get rid of all ESS in their systems.




If you really think that will ever happen, then you have less of a clue than the Devs who came up with this pile of horseshit, and that takes some doing.
RoCCommander
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2004 - 2014-01-23 11:14:00 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Here's a quick update on the changes we've made to the ESS, based on testing and feedback. There is a dev blog coming out tomorrow detailing these (and other changes) to the deployables in 1.1, but here's a basic overview.


Posted: 2014.01.21 13:25

Where is our Dev Blog? =(

CCP Punkturis wrote:
posting here in efforts of getting this thread to 100 pages \o/


Done
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#2005 - 2014-01-23 11:16:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Rommiee
RoCCommander wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Here's a quick update on the changes we've made to the ESS, based on testing and feedback. There is a dev blog coming out tomorrow detailing these (and other changes) to the deployables in 1.1, but here's a basic overview.


Posted: 2014.01.21 13:25

Where is our Dev Blog? =(


Lol you didn't actually believe him?
RoCCommander
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2006 - 2014-01-23 11:37:35 UTC
Rommiee wrote:
RoCCommander wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Here's a quick update on the changes we've made to the ESS, based on testing and feedback. There is a dev blog coming out tomorrow detailing these (and other changes) to the deployables in 1.1, but here's a basic overview.


Posted: 2014.01.21 13:25

Where is our Dev Blog? =(


Lol you didn't actually believe him?


I kinda did ShockedShockedShocked

But his is way is posted this, as kinda a "reminder" P
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#2007 - 2014-01-23 11:50:15 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
The dev blog should be out later today. The one day delay is my fault, I overestimated how quickly I'd be able to get it done in between CSM summit prep.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#2008 - 2014-01-23 11:51:56 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The dev blog should be out later today. The one day delay is my fault, I overestimated how quickly I'd be able to get it done in between CSM summit prep.


Bah one day delay is nothing :D

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
Juliette Asanari
Voodoo Children
#2009 - 2014-01-23 12:02:06 UTC
Altrue wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The dev blog should be out later today. The one day delay is my fault, I overestimated how quickly I'd be able to get it done in between CSM summit prep.


Bah one day delay is nothing :D


If the winter summit minutes will be out faster than the dev blog, we're in serious trouble :D
Tahnil
Gunboat Commando
#2010 - 2014-01-23 12:03:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tahnil
Alphea Abbra wrote:
I mean, no doubt there are people in nullsec with IQ comparable to rocks, but I very much doubt they'd be able to undock and rat at all, so you will have the same effect with or without the ESS: Either a defense fleet forms, or it doesn't.
It's the same mistake Gizznitt makes all the time: How will this encourage fights?
And furthermore: How should this encourage living in the space we've fought for?

I still haven't seen the reasoning for either. Some people manage to concoct all manners of ways the ESS will suddenly generate all the fights that small gangs currently don't get to their hearts desire when roaming in hostile space.
I'm sorry, I don't believe in magic.

Sad


The main problems I still see with the ESS module are the timers. The module itself is quite fine. You can boost your nullsec PvE income by up to 25 percent compared to somebody who doesn‘t use it. That‘s a very nice buff for „rank and file nullsec alliance members“.

The access timers though, they are really giving me a headache. First of all it‘s still a problem that you can „share“ the content with an untrained alt possibly before any attacker is able to warp to the structure. But also the three minute timer for the „take all“ option is a problem.

With these timers the module will in my opinion not generate a lot of fights. I hope I‘m wrong. But on the other hand, it seems to be simple to tweak the module if it fails in it‘s first iteration as a small gang conflict driver.

If everything else goes wrong, at least nullbears can be happy about a considerable income buff. Maybe that will drag some alts back from wormholes and hisec missions, and that would be a good thing already.
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#2011 - 2014-01-23 12:21:18 UTC
Tahnil wrote:
With these timers the module will in my opinion not generate a lot of fights. I hope I‘m wrong. But on the other hand, it seems to be simple to tweak the module if it fails in it‘s first iteration as a small gang conflict driver.

If everything else goes wrong, at least nullbears can be happy about a considerable income buff. Maybe that will drag some alts back from wormholes and hisec missions, and that would be a good thing already.
I'm not sure you came to the conclusion that it could be a conflict driver at all.
Or how it should give "nullbears" an income buff, or "a considerable" one.
Or how it should get alts back to nullsec.

It addresses none of those issues, and it is unable to. As said earlier, if you want fights, the ESS is useless, if you want hotdrops, it is most likely useless.

If you want serious fights in nullsec, you should advocate something like 10x the amount of sites per system. Going from 0-5 people to 0-50 people able to live in a system might change something, while the ESS will make the same 0-5 people dock up / safe up as before, incase they're even still there.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#2012 - 2014-01-23 12:35:02 UTC
They main problem of the ESS if you consider that its aimed to be a conflict driver is indeed the fact that it will only be accessed by alts anyway.

The second main problem is the income buff from a null sec, already "generating tons of isks" from a CCP dev perspective.

The third main problem is the massive decrease in LP value. In itself, why not, but it nerfs lv5 missions that were already quite marginalized.

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[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
Tahnil
Gunboat Commando
#2013 - 2014-01-23 13:06:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tahnil
Alphea Abbra wrote:
Tahnil wrote:
With these timers the module will in my opinion not generate a lot of fights. I hope I‘m wrong. But on the other hand, it seems to be simple to tweak the module if it fails in it‘s first iteration as a small gang conflict driver.

If everything else goes wrong, at least nullbears can be happy about a considerable income buff. Maybe that will drag some alts back from wormholes and hisec missions, and that would be a good thing already.
I'm not sure you came to the conclusion that it could be a conflict driver at all.
Or how it should give "nullbears" an income buff, or "a considerable" one.
Or how it should get alts back to nullsec.

It addresses none of those issues, and it is unable to. As said earlier, if you want fights, the ESS is useless, if you want hotdrops, it is most likely useless.

If you want serious fights in nullsec, you should advocate something like 10x the amount of sites per system. Going from 0-5 people to 0-50 people able to live in a system might change something, while the ESS will make the same 0-5 people dock up / safe up as before, incase they're even still there.


As I tried to point out in previous posts nullsec how it works today is not necesarily a „good“ thing. It has developed over the years to the state it is in now:

– nullsec people splitting their activity into a PvP main char (deployed far away from home) and a (ratting) PvE alt (staying in home space)
– large battles being the main PvP content in nullsec
– home regions being empty most of the time

That‘s a neutral observation.

Modules like ESS are a small gang target. It gives a boost to ratting, but it can be raided and destroyed by small gangs, or even individual brigands. I know that most or all nullsec alliances currently aren‘t prepared for this kind of challenge. There's nobody at home, willing and able to fight off pirates and intruders. That‘s the main reason why most people say it won‘t work. I think modules like ESS are able to and will change everyday life in nullsec – at least to some degree, but not over night.

If you want to „re-vive“ activities in large portions of nullsec space, you need game additions like ESS. And alliances will adapt to the new challenges, some fast, some only over time. For example if ESS is used in more and more places, it might be necessary for an alliance to build up some kind of home defense force, specifically suited for fights against small gangs of intruders. Either PvE alts will train necessary skills and keep some PvP ships at home, or there might be squads for players of the alliance, who actually enjoy patrolling home space, and fighting intruders. Like an alliance police force.

I think that‘s a very nice idea Cool
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#2014 - 2014-01-23 13:39:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Dinsdale Pirannha
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The dev blog should be out later today. The one day delay is my fault, I overestimated how quickly I'd be able to get it done in between CSM summit prep.


Kind of like how you have underestimated the damage you are doing to drone users with the nerfs to the Omni's?
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#2015 - 2014-01-23 13:40:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Rommiee
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The dev blog should be out later today. The one day delay is my fault, I overestimated how quickly I'd be able to get it done in between CSM summit prep.


More CSM prep.... Awesome, I'm already looking forward to the next fantastic idea you guys come up with... I'm really excited about it, but surely it can't be as good as this one.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#2016 - 2014-01-23 13:45:33 UTC
Andrea Keuvo wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Just to spell out the maths.

Start point. No ESS. 95% today.
ESS. Assuming 1k/lp. Lower than it is currently, lets not doom & gloom crazy, because as price of LP drops from supply, more people will buy the now cheaper items, keeping price partly modulated. So LP won't crash.
80% ISK + 15% LP. 95%. NO OVERALL LOSS EVEN IF YOU GET NOTHING FROM THE ESS.

Upgraded ESS.
80% ISK + 20% LP LP. 100%. GAIN ABOVE NO ESS ALREADY.

Upgraded ESS + Payout
80% ISK + 25% ISK + 20% LP. 125%. MASSIVE PAYOUT GAIN.

So, Deploying the ESS is actually very low risk now. You stand to loose the initial 30 Million if you don't get any upgrade ticks done before it gets stolen from & blown up. But unless LP crashes badly (Since it's actually above 1k for most LP anyway, so can drop a bit before making 1k an invalid number) you make the lost 15% isk back in LP, if not quite as convenient. And if you actually manage to upgrade it and get the payout from the ESS when hostiles come through or you are simply done ratting, you make a bucket load of profit.

It's looking good now.


How will -10 sec status people cash in their LP?


Because the next step you whiners will get done is a campaign to exchange Empire LP to faction pirate LP, like you can exchange Concord LP for empire LP.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#2017 - 2014-01-23 13:54:10 UTC
One thing to note.

The Faction Navies have stations with LP stores in Lowsec.

https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/routeplanner/

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#2018 - 2014-01-23 14:22:35 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
And when are you going to significantly increase the number of anomalies per system which desperately needs to be done?


What, so someone who is botting in a system with 2 accounts can now bot with 4?
Jori McKie
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#2019 - 2014-01-23 14:49:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jori McKie
Quote:
Sonho wrote:
Jori McKie wrote:
Many of you guys does not see the strategic implications of the ESS. The ESS can be used as a strategic tool to interrupt income and force fights over it.

Alliance A vs Alliance B
Alliance A is deploying ESS in all ratting system Alliance B has, let the games begin.......
Alliance A isn't dumb and babysit all the ESS waiting for a reaction from Alliance B while Alliance B now has to stop PvE or form a fleet to get rid of all ESS in their systems.

Good luck covering all of the biggest ratting spots an alliance and maintaining that, and who thw hell fights for "rats" ?People rat for moons or space to rent .


Alphea Abbra wrote:
just having a gang in their system?

I mean, no doubt there are people in nullsec with IQ comparable to rocks, but I very much doubt they'd be able to undock and rat at all, so you will have the same effect with or without the ESS: Either a defense fleet forms, or it doesn't.
It's the same mistake Gizznitt makes all the time: How will this encourage fights?
And furthermore: How should this encourage living in the space we've fought for?

I still haven't seen the reasoning for either. Some people manage to concoct all manners of ways the ESS will suddenly generate all the fights that small gangs currently don't get to their hearts desire when roaming in hostile space.
I'm sorry, I don't believe in magic.
Sad


Rommiee wrote:

If you really think that will ever happen, then you have less of a clue than the Devs who came up with this pile of horseshit, and that takes some doing.


So i have to explain in detail how this works?
Alliance B has 20 ratting/farming/ano systems whatever you call it where they kill NPCs for bounty.
Alliance A has a fleet ready may it via cyno or Blops, whatever
Alliance A wants to harass farming in the prime time of Alliance B for lets say 2h as strategic goal and with some luck getting a fight.

What does Alliance A do now without an ESS, put up 20 cloak alts in local, see whats going on. If you are smart enough who the **** cares about a cloak alt, sure your farming may be interrupted from time to time but the point is you can not shut down farming at all.

Now the ESS comes into play, same setup, 20 systems, 20 cloak alts in grid with the ESS. Still you can't shut down farming at all but you can annoy the hell out of those farming guys. Either way, you are getting the cash from the ESS or you kill an Interceptor/Frig trying to access the ESS via Blops or you kill XXXX. It does not matter, the ESS is the cherry on top to harass someone else. The farming guys have 3 options.
- Stop farming partially or at all for 2h = mission accomplished (and if they chicken heads as long as there is a cloak alt in system)
- Trying to steal from the ESS after farming and may or may not get caught = mission accomplished
- Forming a fleet to kill alll 20 ESS = mission accomplished

Rinse and repeat that for 2 weeks and i bet Alliance B farming boys are pretty pissed and Alliance B has to deal with it one way or another.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#2020 - 2014-01-23 15:02:53 UTC
yeah, it's called "enough is enough. unsub"