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Should remote repairs be ships specific?
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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2014-01-23 06:15:58 UTC
Do you think that remote reppers should get a nice nerf so that they're only feasible to be fitted to logistics and carriers in Triage?

I think they should. I had a fight yesterday with 7 or 8 ships vs my solo Marauder. My goal was to jump into the wormhole and tank them long enough to kill the tacklers and small ships. I fit RHML, TP's, Web, 4 Nuets... wasn't able to even dent a cruiser HP with the RR and there were no logis on field.

And I know people will say get friends but I say we've seen the end result of that philosophy in HED-GP recently. If I bought friends, they'd bring more, then I'd complain about RR again, then you'd say, bring more friends and eventually it'd end up being HED everywhere.

Bringing more people as the only way to kill anything is a one way street leading to crappy gameplay. I think logistics have its place but just not on every ship in a fleet. There needs to be attrition imo.



CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Admiral Grr
Bee Exterminators
#2 - 2014-01-23 06:27:37 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Do you think that remote reppers should get a nice nerf so that they're only feasible to be fitted to logistics and carriers in Triage?

I think they should. I had a fight yesterday with 7 or 8 ships vs my solo Marauder. My goal was to jump into the wormhole and tank them long enough to kill the tacklers and small ships. I fit RHML, TP's, Web, 4 Nuets... wasn't able to even dent a cruiser HP with the RR and there were no logis on field.

And I know people will say get friends but I say we've seen the end result of that philosophy in HED-GP recently. If I bought friends, they'd bring more, then I'd complain about RR again, then you'd say, bring more friends and eventually it'd end up being HED everywhere.

Bringing more people as the only way to kill anything is a one way street leading to crappy gameplay. I think logistics have its place but just not on every ship in a fleet. There needs to be attrition imo.





I'm not a wormhole expert, but I know different holes have different effects. Could any of those played a role in this battle?

I'd be in favor of logi requiring a siege mode for full effect, and a reduced effect while flying around (using energy.) This may introduce interesting strategies. Alternatively, there could be some sort of timer that restricts changing targets for an extended period of time for logi. But mainly, I'd love if they were just really easy to blow up. They should have minimal HP. Or, they could attach themselves to ships to repair them for say armor. sending a stream of energy at a target to repair armor is ********.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#3 - 2014-01-23 06:28:13 UTC
Because solo PvP often escalates into a 3000 man fight.

Oh god.
Iyokus Patrouette
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2014-01-23 06:29:29 UTC
I am assuming this fight took place in a wormhole. in that respect you wouldn't get a HED situation as the mass on the wormhole stops that straight up (I love wormholes!). more information on what you were fighting would be nice as well. was it strat cruisers running sites? or was it a kitchen sink fleet? did the wormhole have effects that were working to the enemy fleets advantage?

I suppose i doesn't really matter, i don't think the remote rep module in an issue. . it just seems like you bit off more than you could chew, we all do it sometimes. . so no shame there.

---- Advocate for the initiation of purple coloured wormholes----

Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#5 - 2014-01-23 08:53:41 UTC
RR fleets should be buffed (probably just range) and not nerfed. They are fun and this game needs diversity. If we end up with roles that are only doable with very specialized ships, then why not just play another MMO? One of the main things I like about eve is how I can customize a ship to perform a role.

❤️️💛💚💙💜
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2014-01-23 09:13:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Do you think that remote reppers should get a nice nerf so that they're only feasible to be fitted to logistics and carriers in Triage?

I think they should. I had a fight yesterday with 7 or 8 ships vs my solo Marauder. My goal was to jump into the wormhole and tank them long enough to kill the tacklers and small ships. I fit RHML, TP's, Web, 4 Nuets... wasn't able to even dent a cruiser HP with the RR and there were no logis on field.

And I know people will say get friends but I say we've seen the end result of that philosophy in HED-GP recently. If I bought friends, they'd bring more, then I'd complain about RR again, then you'd say, bring more friends and eventually it'd end up being HED everywhere.

Bringing more people as the only way to kill anything is a one way street leading to crappy gameplay. I think logistics have its place but just not on every ship in a fleet. There needs to be attrition imo.






EXACLTY THE OPPOSITE


They shoudl get a HUGE buff and logistics should be nerfed a bit to compensate.

THis movment of makign everythign usable only on one ship in game must STOP!!!

You made an amazingly DUMB move, on the level that you could expect from a drunk 125 year old teenager and you want to blame game balance?


IT WAS YOUR FAULT! COMPLETE AND TOTALLY!!

You know that several cruisers can while orbiting close ignore COMPELTELY the damage of your marauder (specially if you were using the wrong guns for the job) even when you web them?

There is no need to invilve RR.

Take a fleet scythe with a ASB, it doe snto even need CAP to ignore most of your damage... Dependign on the wormhole effect even COMPLETELY ignore your damage?

BTW. 4 NEUTS? you had only 3 guns or no bastion? That is more fail than I can imagine...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#7 - 2014-01-23 09:19:36 UTC
No, they shouldn't.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2014-01-23 09:35:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
So any fleet with RR should be immune to everything except an equally sized or bigger fleet. There should be no way to damage even a scrammed (no mwd), RF target painted (golem bonused), webbed cruiser with RHML which are equivalent of 16 heavy missile launchers over 40 seconds...

Fair enough :)

I disagree, I think people need to stop being so afraid. I think if you want to be virtually immune to being killed by smaller forces you should be required to bring a logi or two, have them out of range (which is why they have a bonus as they're squishy like a falcon). Heavily armored ships with their own RR is OP.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Jitacha
Deteis Industries
#9 - 2014-01-23 09:49:09 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
So any fleet with RR should be immune to everything except an equally sized or bigger fleet. There should be no way to damage even a scrammed (no mwd), RF target painted (golem bonused), webbed cruiser with RHML which are equivalent of 16 heavy missile launchers over 40 seconds...

Fair enough :)

I disagree, I think people need to stop being so afraid. I think if you want to be virtually immune to being killed by smaller forces you should be required to bring a logi or two, have them out of range (which is why they have a bonus as they're squishy like a falcon). Heavily armored ships with their own RR is OP.


RR is a force mutliplier. Force multipliers are necessary in games so that skilful fleets can beat more numerous fleets.

RR has counters - dampening, ECM and alpha are just some of them.

Sadly mechanics like this designed to make fleet flight more interesting and balanced do not pan out well for solo pilots. But Eve is a multiplayer game, so compromises have to be made against the solo player to make fleets more interesting.
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#10 - 2014-01-23 10:17:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Mizhir
Infinity Ziona wrote:
So any fleet with RR should be immune to everything except an equally sized or bigger fleet. There should be no way to damage even a scrammed (no mwd), RF target painted (golem bonused), webbed cruiser with RHML which are equivalent of 16 heavy missile launchers over 40 seconds...

Fair enough :)

I disagree, I think people need to stop being so afraid. I think if you want to be virtually immune to being killed by smaller forces you should be required to bring a logi or two, have them out of range (which is why they have a bonus as they're squishy like a falcon). Heavily armored ships with their own RR is OP.


So you want your golem to counter everything?

RR-fleets sacrifice alot. They mobility is ****, their damage is usually low and they can be vulnerable to high alpha. They also require some good coordination to fly well. Against a low dps enemy they will shine, but likewise they will struggle to dictate the fight and can barely catch stuff. If you fitted a bastion module you would most likely have been able to permatank them as well. Most of the good RR boats are drone based, so you will even be able to kill their dps.

You just ran into someone outsmarting you and now you call for a nerf. GG

❤️️💛💚💙💜
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2014-01-23 10:22:13 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
So any fleet with RR should be immune to everything except an equally sized or bigger fleet. There should be no way to damage even a scrammed (no mwd), RF target painted (golem bonused), webbed cruiser with RHML which are equivalent of 16 heavy missile launchers over 40 seconds...

Fair enough :)

I disagree, I think people need to stop being so afraid. I think if you want to be virtually immune to being killed by smaller forces you should be required to bring a logi or two, have them out of range (which is why they have a bonus as they're squishy like a falcon). Heavily armored ships with their own RR is OP.



Nope., just use the correct tools to deal with it. DAMPEN the remote repairers, Jam them, NEut them. Anythign but you do need to focus on the reprairers first.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2014-01-23 10:22:48 UTC
Jitacha wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
So any fleet with RR should be immune to everything except an equally sized or bigger fleet. There should be no way to damage even a scrammed (no mwd), RF target painted (golem bonused), webbed cruiser with RHML which are equivalent of 16 heavy missile launchers over 40 seconds...

Fair enough :)

I disagree, I think people need to stop being so afraid. I think if you want to be virtually immune to being killed by smaller forces you should be required to bring a logi or two, have them out of range (which is why they have a bonus as they're squishy like a falcon). Heavily armored ships with their own RR is OP.


RR is a force mutliplier. Force multipliers are necessary in games so that skilful fleets can beat more numerous fleets.

RR has counters - dampening, ECM and alpha are just some of them.

Sadly mechanics like this designed to make fleet flight more interesting and balanced do not pan out well for solo pilots. But Eve is a multiplayer game, so compromises have to be made against the solo player to make fleets more interesting.

Force multipliers are fair enough. A falcon is a force multiplier too. The downside to falcon is it can go pop very easily with around 10k max ehp. It has very long range jammers that it gets great bonuses for purely so its able to reduce the likelihood of being blapped.

Logis are force multipliers too, they have long range RR that they get great bonuses for. The downside to a logi is its very soft and easy to kill since they generally can be alpha'ed quite easily.

Now this is where it gets messed up.

Unlike ECM which don't work well on unbonused ships, RR works extremely well on unbonused ships. So you get the benefit of the RR and no downside at all. You don't see fleets of ships with one ECM mod for that reason but you see fleets of ships with one RR because they make fleets immune.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2014-01-23 10:25:17 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
There should be no way to damage even a scrammed (no mwd), RF target painted (golem bonused), webbed cruiser with RHML which are equivalent of 16 heavy missile launchers over 40 seconds...

.


Our standard 100MN AB T3 tengus with ASB can ignore completely this attack with no help of remote repairer.....

an AB vagabond with a halo set and links and ASB can also ignore such attack.

You made several mistakes, first was fitting rapid heavy launchers.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#14 - 2014-01-23 10:32:03 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Force multipliers are fair enough. A falcon is a force multiplier too. The downside to falcon is it can go pop very easily with around 10k max ehp. It has very long range jammers that it gets great bonuses for purely so its able to reduce the likelihood of being blapped.

Logis are force multipliers too, they have long range RR that they get great bonuses for. The downside to a logi is its very soft and easy to kill since they generally can be alpha'ed quite easily.

Now this is where it gets messed up.

Unlike ECM which don't work well on unbonused ships, RR works extremely well on unbonused ships. So you get the benefit of the RR and no downside at all. You don't see fleets of ships with one ECM mod for that reason but you see fleets of ships with one RR because they make fleets immune.


There aren't many ships with one ECM mod, but there are many ships with ECM drones instead. And ECM isn't the only form for ewar. You can fit damps and TDs in the mids on a fleet. Even unbonused they can mess with ships. And these random midslot ewars are as immune as you claim RR is.

❤️️💛💚💙💜
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2014-01-23 10:33:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Jitacha wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
So any fleet with RR should be immune to everything except an equally sized or bigger fleet. There should be no way to damage even a scrammed (no mwd), RF target painted (golem bonused), webbed cruiser with RHML which are equivalent of 16 heavy missile launchers over 40 seconds...

Fair enough :)

I disagree, I think people need to stop being so afraid. I think if you want to be virtually immune to being killed by smaller forces you should be required to bring a logi or two, have them out of range (which is why they have a bonus as they're squishy like a falcon). Heavily armored ships with their own RR is OP.


RR is a force mutliplier. Force multipliers are necessary in games so that skilful fleets can beat more numerous fleets.

RR has counters - dampening, ECM and alpha are just some of them.

Sadly mechanics like this designed to make fleet flight more interesting and balanced do not pan out well for solo pilots. But Eve is a multiplayer game, so compromises have to be made against the solo player to make fleets more interesting.

Force multipliers are fair enough. A falcon is a force multiplier too. The downside to falcon is it can go pop very easily with around 10k max ehp. It has very long range jammers that it gets great bonuses for purely so its able to reduce the likelihood of being blapped.

Logis are force multipliers too, they have long range RR that they get great bonuses for. The downside to a logi is its very soft and easy to kill since they generally can be alpha'ed quite easily.

Now this is where it gets messed up.

Unlike ECM which don't work well on unbonused ships, RR works extremely well on unbonused ships. So you get the benefit of the RR and no downside at all. You don't see fleets of ships with one ECM mod for that reason but you see fleets of ships with one RR because they make fleets immune.



RR is Extremely WEAK on unbonused ships. You just need to bump the target slightly and it will be outside rep range. You do not see RR fleets, not since the age of AOE titan doomsdays.


You must get one thing... YOU FAILED. You are BAD at PVP if you tried what you did.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2014-01-23 10:38:06 UTC
Mizhir wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
So any fleet with RR should be immune to everything except an equally sized or bigger fleet. There should be no way to damage even a scrammed (no mwd), RF target painted (golem bonused), webbed cruiser with RHML which are equivalent of 16 heavy missile launchers over 40 seconds...

Fair enough :)

I disagree, I think people need to stop being so afraid. I think if you want to be virtually immune to being killed by smaller forces you should be required to bring a logi or two, have them out of range (which is why they have a bonus as they're squishy like a falcon). Heavily armored ships with their own RR is OP.


So you want your golem to counter everything?

RR-fleets sacrifice alot. They mobility is ****, their damage is usually low and they can be vulnerable to high alpha. They also require some good coordination to fly well. Against a low dps enemy they will shine, but likewise they will struggle to dictate the fight and can barely catch stuff. If you fitted a bastion module you would most likely have been able to permatank them as well. Most of the good RR boats are drone based, so you will even be able to kill their dps.

You just ran into someone outsmarting you and now you call for a nerf. GG

A bunch of ships with 1 RR fitted doesn't sacrifice a lot. Most ships have a utility slot. Fitting one module is not outsmarting anyone. It takes no real thinking at all. You fit the module, you start taking damage you call, you get repped up.

Is EvE such a simple skillless game now that these sorts of mechanics are outthinking?

What it sounds like is you want to be in a fleet, even in a weak cruiser, fight battleships and if the battleship targets you be completely immune to it...

Imagine FPS games like Battlefield 4 where you fit a RR belt and whenever you take a hit you automatically get repped up.. that's pretty much what you guys are saying, you fear so much you're not able to think logically about the mechanics.

I jumped in in a 1 billion isk ship, by myself to fight solo at least 8 people I knew were there, fitted with a couple of billion in mods, entire set of high grade crystals, my ship specially fitted to kill cruisers and smaller. I risked more than their entire fleet was worth and couldn't even scratch a crappy 20 million isk cruiser.

I think the next time you're sitting in space in your l33t RR fleet wondering why people won't engage you you should think back to this conversation, because its pretty bloodly pointless to try to fight unless you have more people with more RR or way more people with a crapload of DPS.

You guys bring boredom on yourselves, too much fear of losing...

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2014-01-23 10:42:43 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Jitacha wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
So any fleet with RR should be immune to everything except an equally sized or bigger fleet. There should be no way to damage even a scrammed (no mwd), RF target painted (golem bonused), webbed cruiser with RHML which are equivalent of 16 heavy missile launchers over 40 seconds...

Fair enough :)

I disagree, I think people need to stop being so afraid. I think if you want to be virtually immune to being killed by smaller forces you should be required to bring a logi or two, have them out of range (which is why they have a bonus as they're squishy like a falcon). Heavily armored ships with their own RR is OP.


RR is a force mutliplier. Force multipliers are necessary in games so that skilful fleets can beat more numerous fleets.

RR has counters - dampening, ECM and alpha are just some of them.

Sadly mechanics like this designed to make fleet flight more interesting and balanced do not pan out well for solo pilots. But Eve is a multiplayer game, so compromises have to be made against the solo player to make fleets more interesting.

Force multipliers are fair enough. A falcon is a force multiplier too. The downside to falcon is it can go pop very easily with around 10k max ehp. It has very long range jammers that it gets great bonuses for purely so its able to reduce the likelihood of being blapped.

Logis are force multipliers too, they have long range RR that they get great bonuses for. The downside to a logi is its very soft and easy to kill since they generally can be alpha'ed quite easily.

Now this is where it gets messed up.

Unlike ECM which don't work well on unbonused ships, RR works extremely well on unbonused ships. So you get the benefit of the RR and no downside at all. You don't see fleets of ships with one ECM mod for that reason but you see fleets of ships with one RR because they make fleets immune.



RR is Extremely WEAK on unbonused ships. You just need to bump the target slightly and it will be outside rep range. You do not see RR fleets, not since the age of AOE titan doomsdays.


You must get one thing... YOU FAILED. You are BAD at PVP if you tried what you did.

Spoken like a true risk averse blobber. I took on 8 vs 1 and while I failed to kill 8 the 8 failed to kill me. It was a stalemate.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2014-01-23 10:52:30 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Jitacha wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
So any fleet with RR should be immune to everything except an equally sized or bigger fleet. There should be no way to damage even a scrammed (no mwd), RF target painted (golem bonused), webbed cruiser with RHML which are equivalent of 16 heavy missile launchers over 40 seconds...

Fair enough :)

I disagree, I think people need to stop being so afraid. I think if you want to be virtually immune to being killed by smaller forces you should be required to bring a logi or two, have them out of range (which is why they have a bonus as they're squishy like a falcon). Heavily armored ships with their own RR is OP.


RR is a force mutliplier. Force multipliers are necessary in games so that skilful fleets can beat more numerous fleets.

RR has counters - dampening, ECM and alpha are just some of them.

Sadly mechanics like this designed to make fleet flight more interesting and balanced do not pan out well for solo pilots. But Eve is a multiplayer game, so compromises have to be made against the solo player to make fleets more interesting.

Force multipliers are fair enough. A falcon is a force multiplier too. The downside to falcon is it can go pop very easily with around 10k max ehp. It has very long range jammers that it gets great bonuses for purely so its able to reduce the likelihood of being blapped.

Logis are force multipliers too, they have long range RR that they get great bonuses for. The downside to a logi is its very soft and easy to kill since they generally can be alpha'ed quite easily.

Now this is where it gets messed up.

Unlike ECM which don't work well on unbonused ships, RR works extremely well on unbonused ships. So you get the benefit of the RR and no downside at all. You don't see fleets of ships with one ECM mod for that reason but you see fleets of ships with one RR because they make fleets immune.



RR is Extremely WEAK on unbonused ships. You just need to bump the target slightly and it will be outside rep range. You do not see RR fleets, not since the age of AOE titan doomsdays.


You must get one thing... YOU FAILED. You are BAD at PVP if you tried what you did.

Spoken like a true risk averse blobber. I took on 8 vs 1 and while I failed to kill 8 the 8 failed to kill me. It was a stalemate.



aa sure.. U_MAD is famous for being blobbers.. with our amazingly huge numbers htat with 25 members have more than 10 thousand war targets in high sec.

Research before you write.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2014-01-23 10:55:33 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

aa sure.. U_MAD is famous for being blobbers.. with our amazingly huge numbers htat with 25 members have more than 10 thousand war targets in high sec.

Research before you write.

I'll research before I write if you think before you write... deal?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#20 - 2014-01-23 10:55:49 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

A bunch of ships with 1 RR fitted doesn't sacrifice a lot. Most ships have a utility slot. Fitting one module is not outsmarting anyone. It takes no real thinking at all. You fit the module, you start taking damage you call, you get repped up.

Is EvE such a simple skillless game now that these sorts of mechanics are outthinking?

What it sounds like is you want to be in a fleet, even in a weak cruiser, fight battleships and if the battleship targets you be completely immune to it...

Imagine FPS games like Battlefield 4 where you fit a RR belt and whenever you take a hit you automatically get repped up.. that's pretty much what you guys are saying, you fear so much you're not able to think logically about the mechanics.

I jumped in in a 1 billion isk ship, by myself to fight solo at least 8 people I knew were there, fitted with a couple of billion in mods, entire set of high grade crystals, my ship specially fitted to kill cruisers and smaller. I risked more than their entire fleet was worth and couldn't even scratch a crappy 20 million isk cruiser.

I think the next time you're sitting in space in your l33t RR fleet wondering why people won't engage you you should think back to this conversation, because its pretty bloodly pointless to try to fight unless you have more people with more RR or way more people with a crapload of DPS.

You guys bring boredom on yourselves, too much fear of losing...


A single RR wouldn't tank much. You chose a ship that has a low damage and then you complain about something that can outtank you? Guess what, if the fleet had 6 dps cruisers and 2 logis they will tank even more. And even if you primary 1 of the logis they should be able to sigtank your HML burst. A RR fleet is not immune. You just need more damage than a single marauder to break it. You expected to be able to tank them while slowly killing them, yet they took you by surprise and had RR mods. So yes, you were outsmarted. And if you think it is low, then it says more about you than the game. And don't compare EVE with a FPS game. It doesn't make sense.

It seems like you want your multibillion ship to counter and roflstomp everyone. A RR fleet can easily be countered if you are smart. But a lone marauder doesn't have the tools to do it. So you took a fight where you were heavy countered.

No offense, but I think you should go back to fitting a cloak and keep it running.

❤️️💛💚💙💜
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